Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

So, it seems hamas lied about hospital bombing. Who would have thought that.

Certainly not Rashida Tlaib...

 

[Arctish]

...

That's pure nonsense. I blame both sides for their actions, including Israel. They are two warring tribes that have been fighting a turf battle for decades. From my perspective, you are bending over backwards not to blame Israel for its own actions and for ignoring the difference between Gaza Palestinians and its terrorist government.

And what exactly do you propose Israel do differently? We have already seen that any attempt to make things better for the Palestinians ups the violence.

No, we haven't. Israel has actually been threatening and bombing Palestinians. Thousands have already been wounded and killed. There is no mercy for them. What Israel should do differently is turn water and power supplies back on for the civilian population, provide humanitarian aid, stop trying to drive them from their homes, and appeal to them to help locate hostages. In general, they should express the same concern for Palestinian lives that they do for Israeli lives and brand Hamas and its allies as the true enemy, not Palestinians.

Look at what's been going on for 75 years, not merely now. There is a long pattern of any positive move made by Israel making things worse for them.

What positive moves are you talking about? Please list them.

I already know you're going to talk about the removal of illegal settlements from Gaza as though that was some kind of benevolent gift, but even you have admitted the Israelis only did that when the imprisonment the Gazans was complete.

So. What else?

 

[Arctish]

Note that they are not really anti-war. They are against Israel defending itself (aka "bombing Arabs") but have had no problem with those same Arabs slaughtering and kidnapping over a 1000 Israeli civilians. Let's not lose sight how this all started, and which side started it. It's like calling for a ceasefire with Japan on December 8th 1941.

Perfect description.

When do you think the fighting started?

 

[robnisch]

Balfour Project | Contributing to justice, peace and reconciliation in the Middle East

balfourproject.org

Some good historical information here.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Note that they are not really anti-war. They are against Israel defending itself (aka "bombing Arabs") but have had no problem with those same Arabs slaughtering and kidnapping over a 1000 Israeli civilians. Let's not lose sight how this all started, and which side started it. It's like calling for a ceasefire with Japan on December 8th 1941.

Perfect description.

I think a better description would be to liken it to a prison revolt.

 

[steve_bank]

Watched a press conference. A militray spokesperson talked about people having a right to live without fear, meaning Israel.

Apparently that does not apply to the military occupation of the West Bank and land seizure. Israel has been bombing the West Bank as well as Gaza.

We are tone deaf in our Israel right or wrong policy. Many people around the word will become more anti American. Then we wonder why we have a terrorist problem at home.

If we had tied militray aid and security to withdrawing from the West Bank we may have avoided this mess. The problem is our politicians are only concerned with the next election cycle.

Biden can not leave himself open to criticism from the right on dealing with terrorism and supporting Israel. He can not appear weak at home. We never consider long term consequences.

 

[Gospel]

It seems the obvious needs to be stated again. I wouldn't lose any sleep if every.member of Hamas was killed.

 

[TomC]

It seems the obvious needs to be stated again. I wouldn't lose any sleep if every.member of Hamas was killed.

The devil is in the details.
Hamas is embedded in the Palestinians. Like the Nazis were in mid 20th century Germany.

Imagine trying to take out the Nazis in 1942, but only the guilty ones.

Similarly, how does anyone take out the violent Zionists without the innocent Israelis?
I dunno.

It was once said, "Shoot 'em all, let God sort 'em out".

Tom

 

[Patooka]

It seems the obvious needs to be stated again. I wouldn't lose any sleep if every.member of Hamas was killed.

The devil is in the details.
Hamas is embedded in the Palestinians. Like the Nazis were in mid 20th century Germany.

Imagine trying to take out the Nazis in 1942, but only the guilty ones.

Similarly, how does anyone take out the violent Zionists without the innocent Israelis?
I dunno.

It was once said, "Shoot 'em all, let God sort 'em out".

Tom

"It's in the manual". Short version is to induce an ideological re-alignment.

 

[Derec]

Watched a press conference. A militray spokesperson talked about people having a right to live without fear, meaning Israel.

You disagree with that? Of course, Palestinians deserve to live without fear too. But for that they need to abandon ideas of conquering Israel and having "Palestine" stretch "from the River to the Sea" and they must abandon terrorist groups.

Apparently that does not apply to the military occupation of the West Bank and land seizure. Israel has been bombing the West Bank as well as Gaza.

West Bank has Hamas and Islamic Jihad terror cells too. In addition to other groups aligned with PFLP and even Fatah.

We are tone deaf in our Israel right or wrong policy. Many people around the word will become more anti American. Then we wonder why we have a terrorist problem at home.

So we should give tacit approval to anti-Israel terrorists so we are not the target of other Islamic terrorists? That way lies submission.

If we had tied militray aid and security to withdrawing from the West Bank we may have avoided this mess. The problem is our politicians are only concerned with the next election cycle.

The problem with unilateral withdrawal from West Bank is that it would have a higher probability of degenerating into a second, much larger, Gaza. No, it needs to be the end of a process, not the beginning. Palestinian Authority for one has to show they are capable of running the place.

Biden can not leave himself open to criticism from the right on dealing with terrorism and supporting Israel. He can not appear weak at home. We never consider long term consequences.

Long-term consequences of not completely siding with Israel here, after the 10/7 terrorist attack, would be disastrous.
Just like many countries stood by us after 9/11, so we must stand by Israel.

Do you know what Palestinians did after 9/11? They celebrated!

 

[Derec]

When do you think the fighting started?

The latest war was started by Hamas on 10/7 when they murdered 1,400 Israelis. For no reason, mind you, other than thwart Israel-Saudi rapprochement. Hamas really hates peace.

As far as pulling on a thread going back into the past, you'd probably end up with two groups of cavemen or something, so that is not that useful.

 

[Arctish]

When do you think the fighting started?

The latest war was started by Hamas on 10/7 when they murdered 1,400 Israelis. For no reason, mind you, other than thwart Israel-Saudi rapprochement. Hamas really hates peace.

As far as pulling on a thread going back into the past, you'd probably end up with two groups of cavemen or something, so that is not that useful.

So there was no conflict in May? Or do you think what is happening now is a different conflict, unrelated to the conflict that included Operation Shield and Arrow ?

It looks to me like you and Loren like to claim different starting points depending in which is the most useful for whatever argument you are making at the time.

I think the conflict has been escalating lately, as I said earlier in the thread. I think it started with terrorism in the early 20th century (the region had been very quiet for centuries under Ottoman rule). IMO the conflict turned into a war when Plan Dalet was enacted. Heck, even the Israelis call that time the War of Independence. The fight between the mostly European colonizers and the local indigenous population steadily intensified through the1960s and 1970s, morphed into something truly pernicious with the State sponsored illegal settlements of the 1980s and the 'fuck you' attitude of the Zionists who occupied them, was almost deescalated by the Oslo Accords but ultimately metastasized into what it is now, where there are surges in violence followed by periods of intermittent murder and disquiet but no real peace.

The sudden escalation of violence coming from Gaza was a nasty surprise for people who assumed Israel had everything under control there. But anyone who was paying attention to the fighting, and to the increase in settler violence in the West Bank since Netanyahu returned to power, would only have been surprised that Hamas was able to hide so many rockets.

 

[Derec]

So there was no conflict in May?

Yes, there was. But that was with Palestinian Islamic Jihad, not Hamas. It started when PIJ launched >100 rockets at Israeli civilians. They were mad that one one their leaders staved himself (on purpose) in jail.

Or do you think what is happening now is a different conflict, unrelated to the conflict that included Operation Shield and Arrow ?

Given that the May conflict involved PIJ (and PFLP, apparently, although they are Marxists), not Hamas, I would say yes.

It looks to me like you and Loren like to claim different starting points for the conflict, depending in which is the most useful for whatever argument you are making at the time.

I mean we can pull the thread to the disengagement and withdrawal of Israel from Gaza. Gazans had a chance to establish a peaceful state for themselves. Instead, they chose to keep attacking Israel almost continuously.
And note that before then there was 2nd Intifada, the terror campaign proclaimed by Arafat after he rejected Ehud Barak's peace proposal. We can pull on this thread, but to what end?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Some Muslim Americans furious at Biden in Michigan, a key swing state - "Muslim and Arab Americans say their support was critical to Biden’s winning Michigan in 2020. Some warn they won’t back him again over his blanket support for Israel."

Hamas overplayed their hand. When they were just shooting rockets, moderate Dems could do their "both sides should show restraint" routine.
This war is different. The death toll of the 10/7 Massacre exceeded 9/11 on the proportional basis. There are clear bad guys in this war. And unfortunately some on the fauxgressive Left are siding with them. Like Rashida Tlaib when she believes Hamas statements about the hospital bombing and dismisses US intelligence findings.

So, you start with the moderate Democrats and then shift over to the few on the far left. Nice juxtaposition attempt there. Tlaib can be quite wrong... and not represent most of the Democrat Party.

But with a few hundreds of thousands of Arabs in a swing state, that may make President Biden change his mind.

Hopefully not. But it shows just how dangerous it is to allow mass migration of Islamists. Europe is showing what lies in the future, as their Muslim population is higher. Riots in major cities (scores of police injured in Berlin), synagogues vandalized, etc. Areas like Neukölln in Berlin are basically occupied territory at this point.

Why are Michigan Muslims so extreme anyway?
Detroit synagogue president found fatally stabbed outside her home

When did the thread on the Hamas atrocity become the Derec Muslims Grind My Gears thread?

 

[steve_bank]

The blood lust is up.

The media is having a feeding frenzy, high drama and weeping victims.

Biden is on a righteous mission from god to kill those terrorists in the name of freedom and democracy everywhere.

Those pesky Saudis get a pass on democracy. Thye are against Iran and an enemy of my enemy is my friend regardless of rights in our 'friend's' country. The same Cold War politics that led us to support the fascist Shek in Taiwan, leading to the entanglement we have today with no political way out.

What is being done to Gaza is grotesque.

Israel my win the war, but in the end lose the future.

Did the Afghan and Iraq wars make us safer? I do not think so. If you look at a map the Plasticine complaint is obvious. A big Israel and Palestinians herded into small partitions on either side of Israel. And the land occupied by Palestinians in the Wast Bank is slowly being reduced and they have nowhere to go.

Maybe 2000 yarns from now armed descend nets of Native Americans will sieze control of the allthe lands they once occupied based on histrical rights.

 

[blastula]

Why are Michigan Muslims so extreme anyway?
Detroit synagogue president found fatally stabbed outside her home

Please point to the part in your linked article that suggests a Muslim is even a person of interest. Jumping to the conclusion that the murderer of a Jew must be a Muslim without a shred of evidence is pure bigotry.

Under the circumstances of the crime, it probably was a Muslim.

 

[Arctish]

So there was no conflict in May?

Yes, there was. But that was with Palestinian Islamic Jihad, not Hamas. It started when PIJ launched >100 rockets at Israeli civilians. They were mad that one one their leaders staved himself (on purpose) in jail.

Or do you think what is happening now is a different conflict, unrelated to the conflict that included Operation Shield and Arrow ?

Given that the May conflict involved PIJ only (and PFLP, apparently), not Hamas, I would say yes.

It looks to me like you and Loren like to claim different starting points for the conflict, depending in which is the most useful for whatever argument you are making at the time.

I mean we can pull the thread to the disengagement and withdrawal of Israel from Gaza. Gazans had a chance to establish a peaceful state for themselves.

And that might have actually worked if Israel had allowed Gaza lettuce, strawberries, flowers, etc. to reach the international markets they were destined for instead of ensuring the crops would wilt and rot at the border whenever the Israelis felt like being assholes.

And if the Israelis had allowed the Gazans to develop their natural gas deposits instead of forcing the Gazans to send it all to Israel at bargain prices.

And if the Israelis had allowed Palestinian water from Palestinian aquifers on Palestinian land to go to Palestinian communities instead of diverting it to illegal settlements and choking off the supply of water to millions of civilians.

And if the Israelis stopped fucking with international humanitarian aid destined for Gaza.

Instead, they chose to keep attacking Israel almost continuously.
And note that before then there was 2nd Intifada, the terror campaign proclaimed by Arafat after he rejected Ehud Barak's peace proposal. We can pull on this thread, but to what end?

Go ahead and pull on that thread. I am perfectly willing to reopen discussion of the Oslo Accords.

Ehud Barak tried to change the Oslo Accords instead of following through on Israel's commitment. Arafat wanted the Accords to be followed.

Barak was reacting to the assassination of his predecessor who was murdered by a Zionist for making the deal. The failure of the Oslo Accords was not because of Arafat, it was because of radical Zionists willing to kill any Israeli Prime Minister who tried to keep them from enacting their version of Zionism.

As long as people willing to commit murder are influencing policy, murder will be an expected outcome. Hamas must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box. So must Likud and the extreme Zionist factions currently driving policy in Israel and hand waving away acts of violence committed by settlers in the West Bank.


The only way conflicts like this one ever end is through fair dealings and respecting the rights of ordinary people to live in peace and security in their own homes and to participate in the government that controls their movements, their livelihoods, and their prospects for a better future.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why are Michigan Muslims so extreme anyway?
Detroit synagogue president found fatally stabbed outside her home

Please point to the part in your linked article that suggests a Muslim is even a person of interest. Jumping to the conclusion that the murderer of a Jew must be a Muslim without a shred of evidence is pure bigotry.

Under the circumstances of the crime, it probably was a Muslim.

I would say "there is reason to believe it" more so than "it probably".

 

[Copernicus]

...
Look at what's been going on for 75 years, not merely now. There is a long pattern of any positive move made by Israel making things worse for them.

I've been watching it over my lifetime, which began even before Plan Dalet was implemented. My view is that Israel has made a lot of negative moves and mistakes in that time, which included the 1967 war in which Israel attacked the USS Liberty, killing 34 Americans and wounding 171. So I'm not really up for constructing a balance sheet for you on that subject, and I would rather confine the discussion to the most recent attack on Israel by the Iranian-backed Hamas terrorists. I see Hamas and the Gaza Strip as essentially creations of the Israeli state. No amount of military power is going to solve the problem, because neither Gaza nor the Palestinian population is going to disappear without full scale genocide against that population. Right now, Israel is just thinking about winning the military conflict. Hamas and Iran are thinking about winning the propaganda war, and the Israeli government has swallowed the bait. Israel should be finding ways to stop the cycle of violence and revenge, not perpetuating it. They are never going to kill all the terrorists and be done with it, especially if they can't distinguish terrorists from ordinary Palestinians.

...
There is no physical reason those people can't flee. Israel didn't tell them to go very far.

...
It doesn't matter, because Israel is also targeting the south and even locations they've designated as safe corridors. Those who could tried to flee, but Hamas is ordering them to stay. I've seen interviews with some who fled south but are now returning to the north, since they would rather die in their homes than elsewhere. Food, water, and supplies are scarce everywhere. Israel has agreed to allow a miniscule amount of humanitarian aid, but it has even delayed the 20-truck convoy that was supposed to be allowed until the bombed out road can be repaired.

They say what Hamas says to say. There is no honest reporting out of Gaza.

Who is "they"? I'm talking about reports by non-Muslim sources such as Reuters. In fact, Israel just dropped leaflets in northern Gaza informing everyone that they should flee or be considered enemy combatants. Not only is that a terrorist tactic, but, more importantly, it lets Israeli soldiers that they won't be blamed for killing regular civilians, since the terrorists aren't wearing uniforms. There is already a slaughter of Palestinians taking place with the bombings, but it is guaranteed to be worse when the invasion gets going. The more martyrs there are, the more recruits for future terrorist retaliation, if not invasion by Hezbollah and other more dangerous enemies. Iran is already threatening to get more directly involved (although I believe that they, more than anyone, are to blame for starting this).

As for that bank--if a hostage dies in the assault the legal blame falls on the hostage taker, not the police. Yet you want to blame the police and say the bank robbers should simply be left free to rob again.

You don't seem to understand what the standard procedure is for hostage negotiations. The police don't order hostages to flee, since they obviously can't, and then charge in with guns blazing while the hostages are still there. They bring in professional hostage negotiators. The priority is to save lives, not take revenge on the criminals.

And if negotiations don't work they go in guns blazing. It often doesn't end well for the hostages.

Israel is going in with guns blazing first. It is not seriously negotiating for the release of hostages, although Qatar has been trying to act as a go-between. The Palestinian population, who are also hostages, are being treated as enemies to be dealt with as if they were also terrorists.

...
My answer is to treat the Palestinians like human beings--the same as Israelis. Stop treating them like terrorists and people whose lives don't matter.

Tell Iran that. They're the one oppressing the Palestinians.

At the moment, Iran is not cutting off water, food, shelter, medicine, and other humanitarian aid to the Palestinians. You asked me what I would have Israel do, and that is what I would have them do. Treat them like human beings, not enemies. Hamas and other terrorist groups are the enemy.

I do not believe the people would be sheltering in schools and churches (what churches? They've driven out most of the Christians!) because they know that's a dangerous place to be because Hamas uses protected buildings for weapon storage.

Were you not aware that Christians were living in Gaza City? The Church of Porphyrius was bombed, and Christians were sheltered with Muslims inside of it. They have video footage of a child being carried out of the rubble. The IDF admits that they damaged the church but claims they didn't target it. Reports say 16-18 Christians were killed, including children. The IDF claims they didn't target the church, that they are investigating the incident, and that there was a military command center somewhere near the church. It wasn't being used to store weapons.

There are a few, not many. You have an example of one church but you said "churches" as if they were numerous.

And if the church was full of people sheltering yet only 16-18 were killed then clearly Israel did not hit it. If they had it wouldn't be there and the death toll would be much higher.

Nonsense. They are targeting churches and mosques, because they know that the terrorists often use those sites as human shields. Israel also knows that civilians shelter there, but they target them anyway. It serves the needs of both sides that civilians be caught in the crossfire. And where are people going to hide? They have been ordered to flee south or be treated as enemy combatants, but the south is also under constant bombardment and not much safer. Any building can be targeted. This humanitarian disaster was precipitated by Hamas, but the worst of it is of Israel's making, and they need to own it. Instead, Israel has announced that after the hostilities have ended, they will cut Gaza off completely. The implication is that power and water will not be restored. This is looking increasingly like genocide.

...
There were civilians everywhere in the area. No, the article says the IDF claims it was a military command center, not a launcher. And, if they use such precision targeting, why did they hit a major church? That's a location where civilians flock to take shelter, hoping that Israel will not bomb it. The IDF doesn't really know what happened, because they admit that they are investigating it.

They are investigating to make sure their initial evaluation was correct--which is what they should do if it's called into question.

However, if it's a command center instead of ammo that doesn't change anything, it's still a valid target.

But the church that was actually hit by the "precision" weaponry was not a valid target. Of course, those who blew up the church might well have suspected that it was a Hamas weapons dump. That's the narrative that Israel spreads everywhere and that you have been repeating here. Every church, school, and hospital--a legitimate military target.

...
This is about what is happening now, not the past. History also shows that Israel provided humanitarian aid in past conflicts. Now, it is deliberately cutting that aid off. And we already have video footage that shows victims who are clearly civilians--children, women, old people. These are not terrorists. And they need water, food, and medial supplies that Israel is deliberately denying them.

They wouldn't be getting the supplies anyway. Hamas takes what they want, the civilians only get what's left. It's another thing Hamas doesn't let be talked about. (And it's a general problem with aid to war-torn areas, most of it is diverted. Gaza is only different in the degree of press control.)

Besides rationalizing the targeting of places that are considered war crimes to target, you now rationalize withholding humanitarian aid, which is also a war crime. I suppose one could rationalize cutting off water supplies, because Hamas steals the water, too. "Too bad, civilians, but you should have overthrown the armed terrorists running your country. You have only yourself to blame."

...
That's just false. I blame both Israel and the terrorist attackers for their own actions, and I'm actually reserving judgment on which side caused the hospital destruction. In the case of other civilian targets such as churches and schools, it is clear that Israeli ordnance is to blame. What Israel doesn't seem to get is that it needs to show more restraint than the terrorists who attacked on October 6. Hamas deliberately planned this, and Israel appears to be doing everything they expected. They use Palestinian civilians as human shields for a reason. The IDF can blow them to bits, but that is what precisely what the terrorists are intentionally goading them to do. Israel is making itself look no better than the terrorists who attacked it. They took the bait.

Showing restraint would just get more attacks. In one day Israel took more casualties than since the end of the 1973 war. I would expect them to hit back at least as hard as everything they have done since 1973.

And I don't think Israel is doing much about blowing Hamas to bits. They're blowing Hamas stuff to bits so it can't be used against Israel.

And anyone who happens to be near it, including children, women, the infirm, the aged, etc. Israel has been just as brutal in the past, so, by your logic, that should have diminished the attacks. Instead, they have never really stopped. This one was just made on a much bigger scale, because that was inevitable over time. Cruelty and lack of restraint doesn't work. By dragging Israel down to their level, the terrorists know it helps to cancel out their own cruelty in the eyes of the public, because the state of Israel is supposed to exercise judgment and restraint when dealing with a civilian population. Scapegoating Palestinians in general as allies of the terrorists shocks Israel's allies, who have to justify their support for Israel's behavior.

...

It only means that that is one possible scenario. We don't actually know what caused the explosion, so the best we can do now is suspend judgment.

No. There's nothing that legitimately should be there that could cause that kind of boom. And the boom was caused by the initial boom, it didn't fall from the sky. (A plane can drop from above MANPAD range and there are no bigger threats. Thus there is zero risk to the plane and thus they will only drop one bomb per target unless they see the first one failed to do the job.) Thus it's clear that the second boom was ordnance (presumably rockets) going up--which inherently makes it a valid target. Military trumps civilian!

Update: Just ran into something I would have realized if I had thought about it: The claim that the initial boom was due to a rocket being intercepted is certainly false. The problem is that Iron Dome is a terminal intercept system--it engages rockets coming back down (predictable targets that are much easier to hit), not rockets in boost phase. Anything Iron Dome shoots down will fall in Israel, not Gaza. (They only engage high-threat inbounds in the first place--a round going into Gaza isn't a threat at all.)

Right. I've said all along that that was the most likely scenario, and the way Iron Dome works suggests that it couldn't have been debris from a defensive missile. However, even those with technical knowledge of the system can't rule it out definitively. I accept that the most likely cause was a terrorist rocket that broke up in flight. However, most of the destruction taking place on the ground is not from misfired rockets. It is from deliberately targeted neighborhoods and buildings in Gaza, many of which have innocent people inside them seeking shelter. The humanitarian tragedy is reaching stunning proportions.

 

[steve_bank]

Politics change. There is nothing to say that 10 or 20 years from now there will be America support for Israel. When politics catch up with our demographics shift will there still be the dame sensitivity for Jews?

By remaining belie rant and not finding ways to resolve Palestinian issues in the region it may find itself alone surrounded by hostility.

"Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, lest I consume you on the way, for you are a stiff-necked people" (Exodus 33:3). "But they did not obey nor incline their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear nor receive instruction" (Jeremiah 17:23).