Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

Netanyahu deleted a post on X about a struggle against 'children of darkness' around the time of a tragic hospital explosion in Gaza​

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office posted on X ... that Israel's conflict with Hamas is a "struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle."

His enemies are "children of darkness", not humans.

It's a plain and obvious call to genocide, and I'm appalled that my president is endorsing this shit. Can we vote?

I would read "children of darkness" as Hamas, not the Palestinians.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

With a picture of AOC, Rashida Tlaib, and Ilhan Omar labeled "Hamas Caucus".

Robin on X: "@CoriBush The Hamas Caucus must be expelled (pic linK)" / X with another picture of these three, along with Ayanna Pressley, Rashida Tlaib, Jamaal Bowman, Greg Casar, and Summer Lee.

Typical Zionist propaganda. If you don't support the genocide of Palestinians you support Hamas.

They are calling on Israel not to respond to the Hamas attack. This is a standard Hamas strategy--attack and then use world opinion to stop Israel from responding too much. And the idiots are playing right into it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They wouldn't make a specific claim without evidence.

Sure. Of course they wouldn't. They're the only humans in the history of the species who refuse to tell a lie (with the exception of George Washington, obviously).

Note the "specific claim" bit. This isn't simply a denial they did it, but rather a claim that they have evidence of who did do it. And Israel isn't in the habit of making such allegations without evidence. If they had simply denied having done it there's still the possibility they made a mistake.

 

[Politesse]

Netanyahu deleted a post on X about a struggle against 'children of darkness' around the time of a tragic hospital explosion in Gaza​

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office posted on X ... that Israel's conflict with Hamas is a "struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle."

His enemies are "children of darkness", not humans.

It's a plain and obvious call to genocide, and I'm appalled that my president is endorsing this shit. Can we vote?

I would read "children of darkness" as Hamas, not the Palestinians.

Then why are they slaughtering indiscriminately?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

...

Horrible stuff. IDF says it's an errant Islamic Jihad missile. Which is very much plausible. Palestinian rockets have misfired frequently in previous conflicts and killed people inside Gaza Strip.
Palestinian Rockets in May Killed Civilians in Israel, Gaza
it is also possible that there was a Hamas explosives cache on the grounds of the hospitals. Schools, mosques and hospitals are frequently used by Gaza terror groups to store their weapons.

Since Israel says they intercepted Islamic Jihad communications that showed it was their rocket I would be very surprised if it wasn't. They wouldn't make a specific claim without evidence.

Israel has already used Al Jazeera video footage to try to make their case that it was a misfired missile by Gaza terrorists that caused the hospital explosion. Here is Al Jazeera's rebuttal:

Video investigation: What hit al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza?​

It's one thing to have evidence. It's another thing to misinterpret and misrepresent the evidence that one has.

So you're going to take the terrorists word on this? (Al Jazeera is under the control of Qatar and they're Hamas supporters.)

All they are showing is that Israel shot down some rockets. This doesn't even address what hit the hospital. I don't know how this is supposed to prove that it was a failed launch, all it proves is that rockets were being launched from near the hospital. And whatever the initial trigger the lag before the big boom shows that the big boom was stuff on the ground going up, not whatever caused it.

And note that the Al Jazeera feed was lagging behind realtime--that's done for censorship reasons. (Very common with things like call-in shows--they lag them in case somebody says something they should so they can keep it from going out over the air.)

 

[Gospel]

With a picture of AOC, Rashida Tlaib, and Ilhan Omar labeled "Hamas Caucus".

Robin on X: "@CoriBush The Hamas Caucus must be expelled (pic linK)" / X with another picture of these three, along with Ayanna Pressley, Rashida Tlaib, Jamaal Bowman, Greg Casar, and Summer Lee.

Typical Zionist propaganda. If you don't support the genocide of Palestinians you support Hamas.

They are calling on Israel not to respond to the Hamas attack. This is a standard Hamas strategy--attack and then use world opinion to stop Israel from responding too much. And the idiots are playing right into it.

Unfortunately, the content of the X/tweet doesn't align with your interpretation. The term 'Hamas Caucus' has a distinct meaning. Your description appears to be a broad interpretation.

 

[Copernicus]

...
But "thirst" is not a definitive part of the meaning of "siege". Cutting off water and food of surrounding a fortified location is, but Gaza is not a fortified location. It is a quarantined location. Gaza exists to concentrate and isolate a Palestinian Arab population that has become subjugated by a terrorist organization. That population is as much a victim and a hostage of Hamas as are the recently captured hostages from Israel. And their long captivity has been ignored by an Israeli government that is, at best, indifferent to their fate, if not hostile. So I do blame Israel for that. For its lack of humanity and compassion when it comes to Palestinian Arabs quarantined and condemned to live in Gaza under the thumb of Hamas. The Israeli government created that quarantined population and allowed it to fester for almost a full generation, thinking that it could always just keep them locked up and cut off. And Israelis, unlike Gazans, were able to choose their government. Not all Israelis chose these policies, but the majority were always at least complicit in it. Don't blame the Gazans for complicity in a government that they did not elect. Nobody outside of Gaza intervened to make sure that they could have fair elections, and the Israeli government never cared enough to do anything about their predicament in the past.

Gaza is a fortified location. Built-up areas inherently are fortified locations in modern combat.

No, it isn't a fortified location in the sense of a bona fide siege. It is a quarantined area in the sense that Israel itself built the walls and confined the population to that location.

I do agree the population is a victim of Hamas (and Tehran) but that doesn't change the situation. And Israel did what it needed to for self defense, you continue to blame Israel for the actions of others. And don't blame Israeli policies--the driving force is terrorist money, not Israel.

That's pure nonsense. I blame both sides for their actions, including Israel. They are two warring tribes that have been fighting a turf battle for decades. From my perspective, you are bending over backwards not to blame Israel for its own actions and for ignoring the difference between Gaza Palestinians and its terrorist government. One thing we can agree on is that Hamas uses that population and its captive hostages as human shields. Hamas has never been a humanitarian organization. I think that that is beyond dispute. Israel approaches the same level of inhumanity when it orders over a million people in northern Gaza to evacuate the area. A bit like the police surrounding a bank and ordering hostages inside to flee the building before they come storming it to go after the criminals holding them hostage. Hamas, of course, has been trying to keep the population from fleeing south. They correctly see non-combatant casualties as bad PR for Israel and a propaganda advantage for their side. Israel expects outside observers to be more understanding of their aggressive tactics and perhaps to accept their view that these Palestinians had a responsibility to restrain their thuggish government that hasn't held elections for two decades.

...
Yeah, they don't have the ability to surrender because Hamas denies it. Not Israel. Quit blaming Israel for the actions of the Palestinians.

Wait a minute. You claim Hamas denies Palestinians the ability to surrender, but they--the Palestinians--somehow had the ability to resist Hamas when it decided to launch a brutal terrorist attack on Israel. They apparently have no power to control Hamas until they do in your mind, and I think that this is the basic contradiction I've seen in so many minds of so many Israelis and their supporters. Palestinians are somehow to blame, as if they chose to confine themselves to Gaza and be ruled by a terrorist organization that has not dared to allow any rivals to challenge their grip on power. You want to have it both ways--Palestinians can't choose to surrender, but they can choose to stop a terrorist attack.

The Palestinians are victims. What you refuse to accept is that they are victims of Arab and Iranian actions. They're a stick of wood being used to beat on the Israeli concrete. Blame the beater, not the concrete.

That is utterly false. I have been saying the opposite--that they are victims of Hamas/Iranian actions and Israeli actions. You have refused to accept that they are also victims of Israeli actions. They are not a "stick of wood". They are human beings--the same as the Israeli hostages. But Israel often only sees them as a "stick of wood".

And you can safely assume all hospitals have plenty of Hamas stuff. I haven't caught up with things to know what hospital you are talking about but a Palestinian hospital suddenly going boom isn't exactly shocking given that plenty of other buildings there have spontaneously (mistakes with handling explosives) gone boom over the years.

Well, that kind of paranoid assumption is exactly what leads so many outside observers to fall for the claim that Israel, not Hamas, saw that hospital as a military target that could legitimately been taken out. I honestly believe that, if anyone deliberately targeted the hospital, it was Hamas rather than the Israeli government. However, I think it more reasonable to assume that one of the two sides firing ballistic missiles around indiscriminately may have made a miscalculation or mistake that resulted in a horrific atrocity. At least, I would rather believe that, but I honestly think that either side could have done it. This is what happens in blood feuds between warring tribes.

Paranoid assumption?? No, that's simply how it works over there.

But that does not give Israel the right to target such locations for bombing attacks. I hope you realize that. The Palestinians are claiming that that hospital had been briefly shelled and then ordered to evacuate the hospital or face bombing prior to the attack. That could be a fabricated claim, but I wouldn't expect Israel to admit that they had made such a threat. However, Israel did order everyone in northern Gaza to get out, the implication being that those who failed to flee had no one but themselves to blame if Israeli invaders saw them as threats and legitimate targets. If the hospital had been evacuated, it would likely have been blown up. What actually happened, according to Al Jazeera, was a lot of civilians were sheltering in hospitals and other locations (e.g. schools and churches), hoping that they would be spared bombs and shells. Hamas was telling everyone to stay put.

And Israel isn't firing ballistic missiles in the first place. They're dropping guided bombs. It turns out it was an Islamic Jihad rocket that fell short. Note, also, that Israel has no reason to drop a round into a hospital parking lot. Hamas fighters who are not actively attacking simply aren't worth targeting. Israel shoots at those actively threatening Israel (remember the issues of people being shot for trying to climb the fence? Now we see it was Hamas probing just how far they could go before Israel would shoot--attack preparations), Hamas logistics and Hamas command. It doesn't bother with shooting the grunts if they aren't actively attacking.

I honestly don't know what Israel is using, but I've read that they are also firing artillery shells, which are not guided bombs. In any case, you must believe then that Israel deliberately targeted the Church of Saint Porphyrius in Gaza City, where hundreds of Christians and Muslims were sheltering. Let's not forget that the terrorists position their missile launchers and ammo dumps in and around such locations. The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem has called it a war crime.

...

I think that Biden is probably taking the Israeli intelligence claims at face value. Here is a Jerusalem Post story that explains the Israeli side:

Agreed. This is a positive claim "we caught Islamic Jihad in the act", not merely a negative claim "we didn't drop there." When they make positive claims they're almost certainly solid.

You believe that. I do not. I think that Israel is quite capable lying about something like that, given the outrage across the Muslim world. That's why there are such fierce disputes over who is responsible for the Al-Ahli hospital tragedy.

Of course, one has to trust the IDF not to be doctoring the evidence or concocting their own campaign to blame "the other team", to use Biden's simplistic description. Israel obviously had surveillance intelligence that showed rocket launchers in that location. Hence, they could have launched a missile attack on that location in which one of their own missiles went astray and hit the hospital or an adjacent ammo stockpile (which was also said to have blown up and caused some of the damage). There isn't any explicit evidence of a missile hitting the hospital from any direction, AFAICT. The IDF claims that they fired no missiles at the area from land, sea, or air.

And a few posts ago I was called paranoid for suggesting there were rocket stores there. I was expecting Hamas stuff, not Islamic Jihad, though.

No, I called you paranoid for assuming that rockets are always stored in such locations. That makes locations like churches, schools, and hospitals locations that could be deliberately targeted by Israeli forces. Even if those forces weren't ordered to attack the locations, those who believe them to be such repositories could be motivated to strike on their own. Al Jazeera has been citing the frequencies of such stories in the Israeli and Western media as encouraging attacks on such locations. I think they have a point.

And, this time Derec was right, when he said that the evidence regarding the horrific hospital attack was due to a Hamas rocket, although based on what I've read, it may have been a miss fire.

Technically, it wasn't Hamas, but an allied terrorist group--Islamic Jihad--that launched the missile. They apparently pick locations close to locations like hospitals and schools from which to launch missiles, making it more difficult for Israel to target them without causing civilian casualties. I wonder to what extent Israel is able to use drones, which could theoretically be used to target mobile launchers more accurately rather than lobbing missiles at a fixed location.

Laser guided bombs are pretty accurate. The problem is when you hit an ammunition store you're prone to getting secondaries. Had Israel hit it we would have seen something similar.

Actually, I have read that the Israeli military has admitted that their targeting hasn't been that focused. They are blowing up whole city blocks. The Church of Saint Porphyrius may have been one such location.

...
Israel has already used Al Jazeera video footage to try to make their case that it was a misfired missile by Gaza terrorists that caused the hospital explosion. Here is Al Jazeera's rebuttal:

Video investigation: What hit al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza?​

It's one thing to have evidence. It's another thing to misinterpret and misrepresent the evidence that one has.

So you're going to take the terrorists word on this? (Al Jazeera is under the control of Qatar and they're Hamas supporters.)

No, I don't take their word on anything. Israel itself used their footage as evidence. The Al Jazeera report also used Israeli footage to rebut their claim. Their news reports don't actually read like propaganda. They want to claim that their story shows Israel targeted the hospital. Having watched their report, I can say that I saw no evidence to support that claim. I think that the most likely scenario is debris from a launched terrorist rocket hit by Iron Dome or else a misfired rocket on the ground. It is also possible that the terrorists themselves deliberately blew up the hospital as a false flag operation, but that is paranoid speculation. I wouldn't dismiss such a possibility out of hand. The fact is that there is no way that hospital could be blown up and Israel not get blamed. It did end up torpedoing Biden's attempt at shuttle diplomacy.

All they are showing is that Israel shot down some rockets. This doesn't even address what hit the hospital. I don't know how this is supposed to prove that it was a failed launch, all it proves is that rockets were being launched from near the hospital. And whatever the initial trigger the lag before the big boom shows that the big boom was stuff on the ground going up, not whatever caused it.

I thought I had said as much, but I certainly agree with what you say here.

And note that the Al Jazeera feed was lagging behind realtime--that's done for censorship reasons. (Very common with things like call-in shows--they lag them in case somebody says something they should so they can keep it from going out over the air.)

I wouldn't know that. Maybe you have some reason to think that was the case.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

With a picture of AOC, Rashida Tlaib, and Ilhan Omar labeled "Hamas Caucus".

Robin on X: "@CoriBush The Hamas Caucus must be expelled (pic linK)" / X with another picture of these three, along with Ayanna Pressley, Rashida Tlaib, Jamaal Bowman, Greg Casar, and Summer Lee.

Typical Zionist propaganda. If you don't support the genocide of Palestinians you support Hamas.

They are calling on Israel not to respond to the Hamas attack. This is a standard Hamas strategy--attack and then use world opinion to stop Israel from responding too much. And the idiots are playing right into it.

Unfortunately, the content of the X/tweet doesn't align with your interpretation. The term 'Hamas Caucus' has a distinct meaning. Your description appears to be a broad interpretation.

Calling for a cease-fire is taking Hamas' side.

Hamas is the kid who hits and then runs and hides behind momma's skirt. Something like the kids next door when I was growing up--the parents would absolutely not believe their children had done wrong unless they directly witnessed it. Last I knew the kids had spent most of their adult life behind bars.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Gaza is a fortified location. Built-up areas inherently are fortified locations in modern combat.

No, it isn't a fortified location in the sense of a bona fide siege. It is a quarantined area in the sense that Israel itself built the walls and confined the population to that location.

Buildings can be used as fortifications. It's not a fort in a traditional sense but you can still siege a city even if it has no walls.

That's pure nonsense. I blame both sides for their actions, including Israel. They are two warring tribes that have been fighting a turf battle for decades. From my perspective, you are bending over backwards not to blame Israel for its own actions and for ignoring the difference between Gaza Palestinians and its terrorist government.

And what exactly do you propose Israel do differently? We have already seen that any attempt to make things better for the Palestinians ups the violence.

One thing we can agree on is that Hamas uses that population and its captive hostages as human shields. Hamas has never been a humanitarian organization. I think that that is beyond dispute. Israel approaches the same level of inhumanity when it orders over a million people in northern Gaza to evacuate the area. A bit like the police surrounding a bank and ordering hostages inside to flee the building before they come storming it to go after the criminals holding them hostage. Hamas, of course, has been trying to keep the population from fleeing south. They correctly see non-combatant casualties as bad PR for Israel and a propaganda advantage for their side. Israel expects outside observers to be more understanding of their aggressive tactics and perhaps to accept their view that these Palestinians had a responsibility to restrain their thuggish government that hasn't held elections for two decades.

There is no physical reason those people can't flee. Israel didn't tell them to go very far.

As for that bank--if a hostage dies in the assault the legal blame falls on the hostage taker, not the police. Yet you want to blame the police and say the bank robbers should simply be left free to rob again.

...

The Palestinians are victims. What you refuse to accept is that they are victims of Arab and Iranian actions. They're a stick of wood being used to beat on the Israeli concrete. Blame the beater, not the concrete.

That is utterly false. I have been saying the opposite--that they are victims of Hamas/Iranian actions and Israeli actions. You have refused to accept that they are also victims of Israeli actions. They are not a "stick of wood". They are human beings--the same as the Israeli hostages. But Israel often only sees them as a "stick of wood".

But your only answer is for Israel to do something different, you're searching for the keys under the streetlight.

Paranoid assumption?? No, that's simply how it works over there.

But that does not give Israel the right to target such locations for bombing attacks. I hope you realize that. The Palestinians are claiming that that hospital had been briefly shelled and then ordered to evacuate the hospital or face bombing prior to the attack. That could be a fabricated claim, but I wouldn't expect Israel to admit that they had made such a threat. However, Israel did order everyone in northern Gaza to get out, the implication being that those who failed to flee had no one but themselves to blame if Israeli invaders saw them as threats and legitimate targets. If the hospital had been evacuated, it would likely have been blown up. What actually happened, according to Al Jazeera, was a lot of civilians were sheltering in hospitals and other locations (e.g. schools and churches), hoping that they would be spared bombs and shells. Hamas was telling everyone to stay put.

Geneva disagrees with you. If it's used for military purposes it's a valid target. It matters not if it also has a civilian purpose.

I do not believe the people would be sheltering in schools and churches (what churches? They've driven out most of the Christians!) because they know that's a dangerous place to be because Hamas uses protected buildings for weapon storage.

Besides, Israel overheard Islamic Jihad admitting it was their oops.

I honestly don't know what Israel is using, but I've read that they are also firing artillery shells, which are not guided bombs. In any case, you must believe then that Israel deliberately targeted the Church of Saint Porphyrius in Gaza City, where hundreds of Christians and Muslims were sheltering. Let's not forget that the terrorists position their missile launchers and ammo dumps in and around such locations. The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem has called it a war crime.

You realize guided artillery exists??

Anyway, note that your article says the church was damaged by a strike on a nearby target, not that the church was targeted. And, yes, positioning the launchers by the church is a war crime. Hitting the launcher is not a war crime even if they are by a church.

...

I think that Biden is probably taking the Israeli intelligence claims at face value. Here is a Jerusalem Post story that explains the Israeli side:

Agreed. This is a positive claim "we caught Islamic Jihad in the act", not merely a negative claim "we didn't drop there." When they make positive claims they're almost certainly solid.

You believe that. I do not. I think that Israel is quite capable lying about something like that, given the outrage across the Muslim world. That's why there are such fierce disputes over who is responsible for the Al-Ahli hospital tragedy.

History shows that in the end the Israeli claims are normally pretty close to the truth and the Palestinian claims are wildly inaccurate. And all of those killed by rockets falling short or the like are reported as Israeli deaths.

No, I called you paranoid for assuming that rockets are always stored in such locations. That makes locations like churches, schools, and hospitals locations that could be deliberately targeted by Israeli forces. Even if those forces weren't ordered to attack the locations, those who believe them to be such repositories could be motivated to strike on their own. Al Jazeera has been citing the frequencies of such stories in the Israeli and Western media as encouraging attacks on such locations. I think they have a point.

Once again, you're falling for terrorist propaganda. Al Jazeera is no longer a remotely credible source!

Laser guided bombs are pretty accurate. The problem is when you hit an ammunition store you're prone to getting secondaries. Had Israel hit it we would have seen something similar.

Actually, I have read that the Israeli military has admitted that their targeting hasn't been that focused. They are blowing up whole city blocks. The Church of Saint Porphyrius may have been one such location.

They aren't being as careful as they normally are about civilians caught in the blast but that doesn't mean they're hitting improper targets.

...
Israel has already used Al Jazeera video footage to try to make their case that it was a misfired missile by Gaza terrorists that caused the hospital explosion. Here is Al Jazeera's rebuttal:

Video investigation: What hit al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza?​

It's one thing to have evidence. It's another thing to misinterpret and misrepresent the evidence that one has.

So you're going to take the terrorists word on this? (Al Jazeera is under the control of Qatar and they're Hamas supporters.)

No, I don't take their word on anything. Israel itself used their footage as evidence. The Al Jazeera report also used Israeli footage to rebut their claim. Their news reports don't actually read like propaganda. They want to claim that their story shows Israel targeted the hospital. Having watched their report, I can say that I saw no evidence to support that claim. I think that the most likely scenario is debris from a launched terrorist rocket hit by Iron Dome or else a misfired rocket on the ground. It is also possible that the terrorists themselves deliberately blew up the hospital as a false flag operation, but that is paranoid speculation. I wouldn't dismiss such a possibility out of hand. The fact is that there is no way that hospital could be blown up and Israel not get blamed. It did end up torpedoing Biden's attempt at shuttle diplomacy.

You admit that whoever did it Israel will be blamed--and then you go fall for that and blame Israel.

All they are showing is that Israel shot down some rockets. This doesn't even address what hit the hospital. I don't know how this is supposed to prove that it was a failed launch, all it proves is that rockets were being launched from near the hospital. And whatever the initial trigger the lag before the big boom shows that the big boom was stuff on the ground going up, not whatever caused it.

I thought I had said as much, but I certainly agree with what you say here.

Note that that means that if Israel did it they hit a valid target.

And note that the Al Jazeera feed was lagging behind realtime--that's done for censorship reasons. (Very common with things like call-in shows--they lag them in case somebody says something they should so they can keep it from going out over the air.)

I wouldn't know that. Maybe you have some reason to think that was the case.

The Al Jazeera feed was 35 seconds behind realtime. Obviously they were afraid it might show something they didn't want to show.

 

[Copernicus]

The other side of the story involves this kind of "war":

As Israel-Hamas war rages, a school blast shows people in Gaza have nowhere to run​

 

[JohnG]

With a picture of AOC, Rashida Tlaib, and Ilhan Omar labeled "Hamas Caucus".

Robin on X: "@CoriBush The Hamas Caucus must be expelled (pic linK)" / X with another picture of these three, along with Ayanna Pressley, Rashida Tlaib, Jamaal Bowman, Greg Casar, and Summer Lee.

Typical Zionist propaganda. If you don't support the genocide of Palestinians you support Hamas.

They are calling on Israel not to respond to the Hamas attack. This is a standard Hamas strategy--attack and then use world opinion to stop Israel from responding too much. And the idiots are playing right into it.

I believe they fully expected and wanted Israel to attack.

 

[barbos]

So you're going to take the terrorists word on this? (Al Jazeera is under the control of Qatar and they're Hamas supporters.)

Qatar is US ally

 

[Copernicus]

...

That's pure nonsense. I blame both sides for their actions, including Israel. They are two warring tribes that have been fighting a turf battle for decades. From my perspective, you are bending over backwards not to blame Israel for its own actions and for ignoring the difference between Gaza Palestinians and its terrorist government.

And what exactly do you propose Israel do differently? We have already seen that any attempt to make things better for the Palestinians ups the violence.

No, we haven't. Israel has actually been threatening and bombing Palestinians. Thousands have already been wounded and killed. There is no mercy for them. What Israel should do differently is turn water and power supplies back on for the civilian population, provide humanitarian aid, stop trying to drive them from their homes, and appeal to them to help locate hostages. In general, they should express the same concern for Palestinian lives that they do for Israeli lives and brand Hamas and its allies as the true enemy, not Palestinians.

One thing we can agree on is that Hamas uses that population and its captive hostages as human shields. Hamas has never been a humanitarian organization. I think that that is beyond dispute. Israel approaches the same level of inhumanity when it orders over a million people in northern Gaza to evacuate the area. A bit like the police surrounding a bank and ordering hostages inside to flee the building before they come storming it to go after the criminals holding them hostage. Hamas, of course, has been trying to keep the population from fleeing south. They correctly see non-combatant casualties as bad PR for Israel and a propaganda advantage for their side. Israel expects outside observers to be more understanding of their aggressive tactics and perhaps to accept their view that these Palestinians had a responsibility to restrain their thuggish government that hasn't held elections for two decades.

There is no physical reason those people can't flee. Israel didn't tell them to go very far.

It doesn't matter, because Israel is also targeting the south and even locations they've designated as safe corridors. Those who could tried to flee, but Hamas is ordering them to stay. I've seen interviews with some who fled south but are now returning to the north, since they would rather die in their homes than elsewhere. Food, water, and supplies are scarce everywhere. Israel has agreed to allow a miniscule amount of humanitarian aid, but it has even delayed the 20-truck convoy that was supposed to be allowed until the bombed out road can be repaired.

As for that bank--if a hostage dies in the assault the legal blame falls on the hostage taker, not the police. Yet you want to blame the police and say the bank robbers should simply be left free to rob again.

You don't seem to understand what the standard procedure is for hostage negotiations. The police don't order hostages to flee, since they obviously can't, and then charge in with guns blazing while the hostages are still there. They bring in professional hostage negotiators. The priority is to save lives, not take revenge on the criminals.

...

The Palestinians are victims. What you refuse to accept is that they are victims of Arab and Iranian actions. They're a stick of wood being used to beat on the Israeli concrete. Blame the beater, not the concrete.

That is utterly false. I have been saying the opposite--that they are victims of Hamas/Iranian actions and Israeli actions. You have refused to accept that they are also victims of Israeli actions. They are not a "stick of wood". They are human beings--the same as the Israeli hostages. But Israel often only sees them as a "stick of wood".

But your only answer is for Israel to do something different, you're searching for the keys under the streetlight.

My answer is to treat the Palestinians like human beings--the same as Israelis. Stop treating them like terrorists and people whose lives don't matter.

Paranoid assumption?? No, that's simply how it works over there.

But that does not give Israel the right to target such locations for bombing attacks. I hope you realize that. The Palestinians are claiming that that hospital had been briefly shelled and then ordered to evacuate the hospital or face bombing prior to the attack. That could be a fabricated claim, but I wouldn't expect Israel to admit that they had made such a threat. However, Israel did order everyone in northern Gaza to get out, the implication being that those who failed to flee had no one but themselves to blame if Israeli invaders saw them as threats and legitimate targets. If the hospital had been evacuated, it would likely have been blown up. What actually happened, according to Al Jazeera, was a lot of civilians were sheltering in hospitals and other locations (e.g. schools and churches), hoping that they would be spared bombs and shells. Hamas was telling everyone to stay put.

Geneva disagrees with you. If it's used for military purposes it's a valid target. It matters not if it also has a civilian purpose.

If there are civilians sheltering in those locations, they are not legitimate military targets. We are not seeing anything like conformance with the basic principles of International Humanitarian Law from Israel. You don't cut off basic human needs--food, water, power, medical supplies--from civilian populations. That is clearly a war crime. Israel appears to be deliberately ignoring these principles now, although it did make efforts to comply in the past.

I do not believe the people would be sheltering in schools and churches (what churches? They've driven out most of the Christians!) because they know that's a dangerous place to be because Hamas uses protected buildings for weapon storage.

Were you not aware that Christians were living in Gaza City? The Church of Porphyrius was bombed, and Christians were sheltered with Muslims inside of it. They have video footage of a child being carried out of the rubble. The IDF admits that they damaged the church but claims they didn't target it. Reports say 16-18 Christians were killed, including children. The IDF claims they didn't target the church, that they are investigating the incident, and that there was a military command center somewhere near the church. It wasn't being used to store weapons.

Besides, Israel overheard Islamic Jihad admitting it was their oops.

Israel released an unverified audio tape that they allege is from Islamic Jihad. Palestinians are claiming that the Arab accents were not native to Gaza.

...
I honestly don't know what Israel is using, but I've read that they are also firing artillery shells, which are not guided bombs. In any case, you must believe then that Israel deliberately targeted the Church of Saint Porphyrius in Gaza City, where hundreds of Christians and Muslims were sheltering. Let's not forget that the terrorists position their missile launchers and ammo dumps in and around such locations. The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem has called it a war crime.

You realize guided artillery exists??

Anyway, note that your article says the church was damaged by a strike on a nearby target, not that the church was targeted. And, yes, positioning the launchers by the church is a war crime. Hitting the launcher is not a war crime even if they are by a church.

There were civilians everywhere in the area. No, the article says the IDF claims it was a military command center, not a launcher. And, if they use such precision targeting, why did they hit a major church? That's a location where civilians flock to take shelter, hoping that Israel will not bomb it. The IDF doesn't really know what happened, because they admit that they are investigating it.

...I think that Israel is quite capable lying about something like that, given the outrage across the Muslim world. That's why there are such fierce disputes over who is responsible for the Al-Ahli hospital tragedy.

History shows that in the end the Israeli claims are normally pretty close to the truth and the Palestinian claims are wildly inaccurate. And all of those killed by rockets falling short or the like are reported as Israeli deaths.

This is about what is happening now, not the past. History also shows that Israel provided humanitarian aid in past conflicts. Now, it is deliberately cutting that aid off. And we already have video footage that shows victims who are clearly civilians--children, women, old people. These are not terrorists. And they need water, food, and medial supplies that Israel is deliberately denying them.

...No, I don't take their word on anything. Israel itself used their footage as evidence. The Al Jazeera report also used Israeli footage to rebut their claim. Their news reports don't actually read like propaganda. They want to claim that their story shows Israel targeted the hospital. Having watched their report, I can say that I saw no evidence to support that claim. I think that the most likely scenario is debris from a launched terrorist rocket hit by Iron Dome or else a misfired rocket on the ground. It is also possible that the terrorists themselves deliberately blew up the hospital as a false flag operation, but that is paranoid speculation. I wouldn't dismiss such a possibility out of hand. The fact is that there is no way that hospital could be blown up and Israel not get blamed. It did end up torpedoing Biden's attempt at shuttle diplomacy.

You admit that whoever did it Israel will be blamed--and then you go fall for that and blame Israel.

That's just false. I blame both Israel and the terrorist attackers for their own actions, and I'm actually reserving judgment on which side caused the hospital destruction. In the case of other civilian targets such as churches and schools, it is clear that Israeli ordnance is to blame. What Israel doesn't seem to get is that it needs to show more restraint than the terrorists who attacked on October 6. Hamas deliberately planned this, and Israel appears to be doing everything they expected. They use Palestinian civilians as human shields for a reason. The IDF can blow them to bits, but that is what precisely what the terrorists are intentionally goading them to do. Israel is making itself look no better than the terrorists who attacked it. They took the bait.

All they are showing is that Israel shot down some rockets. This doesn't even address what hit the hospital. I don't know how this is supposed to prove that it was a failed launch, all it proves is that rockets were being launched from near the hospital. And whatever the initial trigger the lag before the big boom shows that the big boom was stuff on the ground going up, not whatever caused it.

I thought I had said as much, but I certainly agree with what you say here.

Note that that means that if Israel did it they hit a valid target.

It only means that that is one possible scenario. We don't actually know what caused the explosion, so the best we can do now is suspend judgment.

 

[lpetrich]

Waleed Shahid on X: "“I want to talk about how insane and painful and scary it is to work in a space where we have a member in our caucus say ‘all Muslims are responsible for this’ and not a single condemnation comes from our caucus leadership or any member of Congress?” -@IlhanMN on @RepJoshG (vid link)" / X
Ilhan Omar on Josh Gottheimer

‘Sh-t thing to say’: Tempers flare among House Dems over the Israel war - POLITICO - "Accusations about insensitivity toward Muslims burst out into the open at a caucus meeting. "

s Wild told fellow House Democrats that she didn’t want any religious community to feel ostracized — noting that Muslim leaders weren’t present at the event she participated in — Rep. Josh Gottheimer (D-N.J.), a moderate Jewish Democrat and Israel hawk, loudly interjected.

Accounts differ, however, on whether Gottheimer was referring to Muslims or made an ill-timed remark in an unrelated conversation, with some attendees overhearing him saying “because they’re all guilty” and others saying he stated “because they should feel guilty.” A spokesperson for Gottheimer strongly denied that he was talking about Muslims.

 

[lpetrich]

 Justin Amash - a Republican for most of his years in Congress, 2011 to 2021. He was the first Republican to support impeaching Donald Trump, but he became an Independent in 2019 and a Libertarian in 2020. He did not run again.

Justin Amash was born on April 18, 1980, in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He is the second of three sons born to Arab Christian parents who had immigrated to the United States. His father, Attallah Amash, is a Palestinian Christian whose family lived in Ramla until they were forcibly expelled by Israeli soldiers during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.[4] Attallah and his family immigrated to the United States in 1956 when he was 16 through the sponsorship of an American pastor in Muskegon, Michigan.[4][5] Amash's mother, Mimi, is a Syrian Christian who met his father through family friends in Damascus, Syria, and the two married in 1974.[6][7][8][9]

Thus being the first Palestinian-descended member of Congress, preceding Rashida Tlaib.

Justin Amash on X: "I was really worried about this. ..." / X

I was really worried about this. With great sadness, I have now confirmed that several of my relatives (including Viola and Yara pictured here) were killed at Saint Porphyrius Orthodox Church in Gaza, where they had been sheltering, when part of the complex was destroyed as the result of an Israeli airstrike. Give rest, O Lord, to their souls, and may their memories be eternal.

The Palestinian Christian community has endured so much. Our family is hurting badly. May God watch over all Christians in Gaza—and all Israelis and Palestinians who are suffering, whatever their religion or creed.

with a picture of Viola and Yera.

Rashida Tlaib on X: "@justinamash I am so sorry Justin." / X

Ilhan Omar on X: "@justinamash May God ease the pain you and your relatives are experiencing. Sending my condolences and love to you all." / X

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on X: "@justinamash Justin, I am so incredibly sorry. This is devastating" / X

Rep. Pramila Jayapal on X: "@justinamash I am so sorry for this profound loss, Justin. " / X

Jasmine Crockett on X: "@justinamash So sorry for your loss ." / X

Ryan Grim on X: "@justinamash I’m so sorry" / X

 

[lpetrich]

Prem Thakker on X: "More members have joined the ceasefire resolution, bringing the total to 18: –Bush –Tlaib –André Carson –Summer Lee –Ramirez –Bowman –Watson Coleman –Chuy Garcia –Jonathan Jackson –AOC –Omar –Pressley –Velázquez –Barbara Lee –Pramila Jayapal –Greg Casar –Alma Adams –Maxwell Frost" / X

Jeff Napolitano on X: "@prem_thakker @JonathanCohn McGovern too" / X
then
Prem Thakker on X: "@JeffNapolitano @JonathanCohn He has signed a statement along with some of these members in support of a ceasefire, but has not signed on to this specific congressional resolution" / X

Nothing on it in congress.gov however


Katie Halper on X: "Bernie Sanders, whose family was killed in the Holocaust urges restraint and says “Let us not forget that half of the two million people in Gaza are children. Children and innocent people do not deserve to be punished for the actions of Hamas."" / X

 

[lpetrich]

To get an idea of the size of the State of Israel, I consulted Google Maps. From the northern to the southern end, it's 270 mi / 435 km. The southernmost part of Israel is the Negev Desert, and omitting it by by using Be'er Sheva (Beersheba) as the southernmost point gives 157 mi / 252 km. For the width, I did Tel Aviv - Jericho, giving 48 mi / 77 km.

Israel and the US state New Jersey are thus very similar in size if one omits the Negev Desert.

 

[Derec]

Prem Thakker on X: "More members have joined the ceasefire resolution, bringing the total to 18: –Bush –Tlaib –André Carson –Summer Lee –Ramirez –Bowman –Watson Coleman –Chuy Garcia –Jonathan Jackson –AOC –Omar –Pressley –Velázquez –Barbara Lee –Pramila Jayapal –Greg Casar –Alma Adams –Maxwell Frost" / X

The problem with an unconditional ceasefire like that is that it would leave the status quo - Hamas in power in Gaza, funded and armed by Iran. Nothing would be solved and we would have the same mess in a few years after Hamas rebuilt - not the housing stock of civilian infrastructure - but their rocket stockpile and tunnel infrastructure.

Katie Halper on X: "Bernie Sanders, whose family was killed in the Holocaust urges restraint and says “Let us not forget that half of the two million people in Gaza are children. Children and innocent people do not deserve to be punished for the actions of Hamas."" / X

Bernie, being related to Holocaust victims should be the first to understand that half measures against genocidal fascists do not work. Hamas must be crushed, or this will continue happening. Unfortunately he has drank the Koolaid of the new, woke Left.

 

[laughing dog]

Prem Thakker on X: "More members have joined the ceasefire resolution, bringing the total to 18: –Bush –Tlaib –André Carson –Summer Lee –Ramirez –Bowman –Watson Coleman –Chuy Garcia –Jonathan Jackson –AOC –Omar –Pressley –Velázquez –Barbara Lee –Pramila Jayapal –Greg Casar –Alma Adams –Maxwell Frost" / X

The problem with an unconditional ceasefire like that is that it would leave the status quo - Hamas in power in Gaza, funded and armed by Iran. Nothing would be solved and we would have the same mess in a few years after Hamas rebuilt - not the housing stock of civilian infrastructure - but their rocket stockpile and tunnel infrastructure.

Katie Halper on X: "Bernie Sanders, whose family was killed in the Holocaust urges restraint and says “Let us not forget that half of the two million people in Gaza are children. Children and innocent people do not deserve to be punished for the actions of Hamas."" / X

Bernie, being related to Holocaust victims should be the first to understand that half measures against genocidal fascists do not work. Hamas must be crushed, or this will continue happening. Unfortunately he has drank the Koolaid of the new, woke Left.

One does not need to be related to Holocaust victims to comprehend that killing civilian children and innocents is not only wrong, but doesn't work in the long run.

Unfortunately, there are too many people who have slurped down the Koolaid of the old alt right and genocidal maniacs who feel that eliminating people in massive quantities is the only solution.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

With a picture of AOC, Rashida Tlaib, and Ilhan Omar labeled "Hamas Caucus".

Robin on X: "@CoriBush The Hamas Caucus must be expelled (pic linK)" / X with another picture of these three, along with Ayanna Pressley, Rashida Tlaib, Jamaal Bowman, Greg Casar, and Summer Lee.

Typical Zionist propaganda. If you don't support the genocide of Palestinians you support Hamas.

They are calling on Israel not to respond to the Hamas attack. This is a standard Hamas strategy--attack and then use world opinion to stop Israel from responding too much. And the idiots are playing right into it.

Unfortunately, the content of the X/tweet doesn't align with your interpretation. The term 'Hamas Caucus' has a distinct meaning. Your description appears to be a broad interpretation.

Calling for a cease-fire is taking Hamas' side.

Not really, no. Calling for the death of Israeli Jews in another Holocaust is taking Hamas' side. Calling for the indiscriminate deaths of ordinary Gazans in a revenge plot is taking the fair-right Israeli government's side. Somewhere near to the middle is seeking peace and a cease-fire so and depending on how the hypothetical person may have particular nuanced views about how a hostage negotiation may proceed may put them very slightly more in favor of Hamas, Palestinians at large, and/or of Israel.

Hamas is the kid who hits and then runs and hides behind momma's skirt.

It's more complicated than that: Hamas is the kid whose friend got punched in the mouth by Person X and so he goes and punches Person Y because Person X and Y are friends but Y is much weaker. Then Hamas goes to run and hide behind mommy's skirt. Meanwhile Person X runs around screaming "come on out," and goes punching Person A, B, and C who are friends with Person X.

Something like the kids next door when I was growing up--the parents would absolutely not believe their children had done wrong unless they directly witnessed it.

You mean like beheading babies?