Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TV and credit cards]

Update: Just ran into something I would have realized if I had thought about it: The claim that the initial boom was due to a rocket being intercepted is certainly false. The problem is that Iron Dome is a terminal intercept system--it engages rockets coming back down (predictable targets that are much easier to hit), not rockets in boost phase. Anything Iron Dome shoots down will fall in Israel, not Gaza. (They only engage high-threat inbounds in the first place--a round going into Gaza isn't a threat at all.)

Where did you read this? My understanding is that it is a matter of trajectory which should be based on a maximum g-force a missile can sustain. That is at a given velocity, can the missile still turn and be a threat. Whether the missile is going up or down wouldn't necessarily be part of the calculation. Whether Iron Dome uses max g-force based on today's best missile technology or some lower value assuming Hamas couldn't possibly have anything better than x, they do so at their own risk. Beyond that it would be a matter of maximum intercept range.
Do you know "phase" of the missile to be part of it?

 

[Rhea]

Note that they are not really anti-war. They are against Israel defending itself (aka "bombing Arabs") but have had no problem with those same Arabs slaughtering and kidnapping over a 1000 Israeli civilians. Let's not lose sight how this all started, and which side started it. It's like calling for a ceasefire with Japan on December 8th 1941.

Perfect description.

Aaaah. There it is.

Note that they are not really anti-war. They are against Israel defending itself (aka "bombing Arabs") but have had no problem with those same Arabs slaughtering and kidnapping over a 1000 Israeli civilians. Let's not lose sight how this all started, and which side started it. It's like calling for a ceasefire with Japan on December 8th 1941.

Perfect description.

Perfect if you think the 4000+ arabs killed by Israeli rockets are those same arabs that belong to Hamas and perpetrated the horrific attack.


”Thos same Arabs”
Because they’re all the same to you. There are no innocent people whom it would be wrong to kill in Gaza.



Quiet part out loud. And seconded.

 

[laughing dog]

Why are Michigan Muslims so extreme anyway?
Detroit synagogue president found fatally stabbed outside her home

Please point to the part in your linked article that suggests a Muslim is even a person of interest. Jumping to the conclusion that the murderer of a Jew must be a Muslim without a shred of evidence is pure bigotry.

Under the circumstances of the crime, it probably was a Muslim.

What circumstances of the crime would those be? According to the Detroit police No evidence of antisemtism in brutal stabbing death .

 

[steve_bank]

Watched a press conference. A militray spokesperson talked about people having a right to live without fear, meaning Israel.

You disagree with that? Of course, Palestinians deserve to live without fear too. But for that they need to abandon ideas of conquering Israel and having "Palestine" stretch "from the River to the Sea" and they must abandon terrorist groups.

Apparently that does not apply to the military occupation of the West Bank and land seizure. Israel has been bombing the West Bank as well as Gaza.

West Bank has Hamas and Islamic Jihad terror cells too. In addition to other groups aligned with PFLP and even Fatah.

We are tone deaf in our Israel right or wrong policy. Many people around the word will become more anti American. Then we wonder why we have a terrorist problem at home.

So we should give tacit approval to anti-Israel terrorists so we are not the target of other Islamic terrorists? That way lies submission.

If we had tied militray aid and security to withdrawing from the West Bank we may have avoided this mess. The problem is our politicians are only concerned with the next election cycle.

The problem with unilateral withdrawal from West Bank is that it would have a higher probability of degenerating into a second, much larger, Gaza. No, it needs to be the end of a process, not the beginning. Palestinian Authority for one has to show they are capable of running the place.

Biden can not leave himself open to criticism from the right on dealing with terrorism and supporting Israel. He can not appear weak at home. We never consider long term consequences.

Long-term consequences of not completely siding with Israel here, after the 10/7 terrorist attack, would be disastrous.
Just like many countries stood by us after 9/11, so we must stand by Israel.

Do you know what Palestinians did after 9/11? They celebrated!

Sure, and Ukraine needs to get used to unprovoked Russian militray occupation and colonization, and learn to like it.


It is not just the existence of Israel, it is fait acompli and irreversible. It is how Plaesyimians have been treatd since Israel was formed.

In the 19th century the westward colonization by settlers pushed Native Americans onto reservations. They ere considered a problem on the east coast from the founding, an obstacle to progress.

Wen the 'injuns' fought back they were painted as savage brutal bloodthirsty murderers. They became terrorists of the day. They were herded onto reservations and expected to like it and not leave,.

Look at a map of Israel. Palestinians are herd into small areas of Gaza and the West Bank. The militray occupation in the West Bank is slowly pushing Palestinians off their land. They are in the way of Israeli progress.

In the past Netanyahu has said explicitly Is real will do whatever it wants. He has said Israel has a right to the land because it was given to Jews by god, that is Zionism.

Any other regime and we would be talking about sanctions.

People over here seem to be tone deaf on why the Palestinians are pushing back, but that appears to be changing a little.

We are now seeing a least some reporting on the underlying causes of the conflict. There are demonstrations supporting Palatinates, of course labeled anti Jew.

Note there was a large demonstration by American Jews against the invasion in DC.

The political correctness culture police are out in force. Not just Chappelle, people who openly disagree with Israel in public are facing retaliation.

Dave Chappelle Criticizes Israel’s Bombing of Gaza at Boston Comedy Show (Report)

The comedian allegedly slammed the Israeli government for cutting off water and other essential items to Gaza, as well as accused it of killing innocent civilians.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

The Wall Street Journal reported that the comedian initially condemned the Oct. 7 terrorist attack on Israel by the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas during his show at TD Garden on Thursday, according to people in attendance. He reportedly then criticized Israel’s bombing of Gaza and accused the United States of aiding the slaughter of innocent people.

Those in attendance said Chappelle’s comments on the Israel-Hamas war came about after he said that he didn’t think students should lose their job offers for expressing their support for Palestinians. That’s when some people in the audience proceed to tell the comedian to “shut up,” evoking a response from Chappelle.

 

[blastula]

Why are Michigan Muslims so extreme anyway?
Detroit synagogue president found fatally stabbed outside her home

Please point to the part in your linked article that suggests a Muslim is even a person of interest. Jumping to the conclusion that the murderer of a Jew must be a Muslim without a shred of evidence is pure bigotry.

Under the circumstances of the crime, it probably was a Muslim.

What circumstances of the crime would those be? According to the Detroit police No evidence of antisemtism in brutal stabbing death .

Looking at it more, I retract.

 

[lpetrich]

After looking at Palestinian government, with the West Bank having regular local elections and the Gaza Strip no elections in 17 years, I look at Israel's government. It may surprise some Americans that people elsewhere in the world have not exactly been trying to exactly duplicate the US system of government, and have often had very different systems, even if elected systems.

Israel has a unicameral (one-chamber) legislature with 120 seats, as opposed to the US's bicameral (two-chamber) one. Most US states are also bicameral, though Nebraska is unicameral, and most US local governments are unicameral. Canada, the UK, Ireland, Australia, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, and France are all bicameral, though with one chamber usually dominant, and New Zealand, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden are all unicameral. Regional governments, roughly comparable to US states, are often unicameral.

Israel's Knesset (Hebrew: "gathering" or "assembly") is the dominant body, electing a mostly-ceremonial President, and only being restrained by the courts and local governments. Israel has a parliamentary system of government, meaning that whichever party or coalition of parties achieves a majority is the party or coalition that chooses heads of major government agencies, including the acting leader, the Prime Minister.

The Knesset is elected by closed-list party-list proportional representation, meaning that one votes for parties, not candidates. Each party then gets seats in proportion to how many votes that it got. The party-list part is from the tradition of parties offering lists of candidates. Some nations use open-list party-list elections, where one can also vote on who gets priority to be seated in the legislature. The Knesset has a 3.25% threshold for being elected to it.

 

[lpetrich]

Here is  List of political parties in Israel

• Likud (Hebrew: "Unity" or "Consolidation") - Benjamin Netanyahu - 32 seats - gov't
• Yesh Atid (Hebrew: "There Is A Future") - Yair Lapid - 24 seats - oppo
• National Unity (English, also "State Camp", from Hebrew "HaMaḥane HaMamlakht") - Benny Gantz - 12 seats - oppo
  • Israel Resilience (English, from Hebrew "Hosen LeYisrael")
  • New Hope (English, from Hebrew "Tikva Hadasha")
• Shas (Hebrew acronym for "Shom'rei Torah" ("Guardians of the Torah") or "Shom'rei S'farad" ("Sephardic Guardians")) - Aryeh Deri - 11 seats - gov't
• National Religious Party – Religious Zionism (English) - Bezalel Smotrich - 7 seats - gov't
• United Torah Judaism (English, from Hebrew "Yahadut HaTora") - Moshe Gafni - 7 seats - gov't
  • Agudat Yisrael (Hebrew: "Union of Israel")
  • Degel HaTorah (Hebrew: "Banner of the Torah")
• Otzma Yehudit (Hebrew: "Jewish Power") - Itamar Ben-Gvir - 6 seats - gov't
• Yisrael Beiteinu (Hebrew: "Israel Our Home") - Avigdor Lieberman - 6 seats - oppo
• United Arab List (English, from Hebrew "HaReshima HaAravit HaMe'uhedet" and Arabic "Al-Qā'ima al-'Arabiyya al-Muwaḥḥada") - Mansour Abbas - 5 seats - oppo
• Hadash–Ta'al - Ayman Odeh - 5 seats - oppo
  • Hadash (Hebrew: "New", Hebrew acronym for "HaHazit HaDemokratit LeShalom uLeShivion", Arabic "Al-Jabhah ad-Dimuqrāṭiyyah lis-Salām wal-Musāwāt", English "The Democratic Front for Peace and Equality")
  • Ta'al (Hebrew acronym; no Romanization given in Wikipedia for either the Hebrew or the Arabic versions of its name, which translates as "Arab Movement for Renewal")
• Labor (English, from Hebrew "Avoda") - Merav Michaeli - 4 seats - oppo
• Noam (Hebrew: "Pleasantness") - Avi Maor - 1 seat - gov't

Some parties have formed alliances so they can get into the Knesset.

 

[lpetrich]

There are also oodles of parties that did not make it into the Knesset, and also oodles of parties that were previously represented there.

My favorite name of a party: Ani Veata (Me and You) — The Israeli People's Party

Returning to the parties already in the Knesset, those are 12 political parties or alliances, with each alliance having 2 parties, making a total of 15 parties. Estimating the effective number of parties gives 6.85 parties and alliances, and assuming a half-half split for each alliance, 7.23 parties.

Counting up the two coalitions, the governing one has 64 members and the opposition one 56 members. Both of them each have 6 parties and alliances.

 

[lpetrich]

Israeli Politician Says “Children of Gaza Have Brought This Upon Themselves” | Truthout

When children are explicitly framed as “not innocent,” all-out genocidal warfare is possible.

It was not a known hardliner who stated that, but a member of a centrist opposition party, Meirav Ben-Ari from Yair Lapid's party Yesh Atid.

Ben-Ari is evidently getting worked up as Palestinian lawmaker Aida Touma-Sliman (around two hours into the session) bemoans the loss of civilian lives “both in the area surrounding Gaza and in Gaza,” imploring to make an effort to release hostages and to “get the civilians out of the circle of blood.” “Jews as well as Arabs, Israelis as well as Palestinians.” “A child is a child,” Touma-Sliman reminds everyone, pointing out that at that point, over 900 children had been killed from Israel’s bombing of Gaza (a day later, that number swelled to well over a thousand).

All this humanity was just too much for Ben-Ari. She started shouting and heckling Touma-Sliman, saying, “There is not symmetry, there is no symmetry!”

Ms. Touma-Sliman kept reading from her prepared remarks, then referred to Ben-Ari's remarks:

“Between children there is symmetry,” she said.
Ben Ari went livid: “There is no symmetry!!”
Touma-Sliman emphasized: “A child is a child is a child.”

More from Ben-Ari:

“I did not plan to speak, of course, but I have to say one thing that should be clear: There is no symmetry. There is no symmetry. Me, my friends, ok, were on the way to the synagogue on the day of Simchat Torah, and they were shot at, only because they were Jews in this state. That’s it. And friends of mine – their children went to the party, to celebrate – seculars, religious, doesn’t matter who, only because they were Jewish, they were murdered. So there is no symmetry! And the children in Gaza – the children in Gaza have brought this upon themselves! We are a peace-seeking nation, a life-loving nation. There is no symmetry – our children are kidnapped over there!” (My emphasis)

Then ranting about Hamas using children as human shields, and saying “There is no symmetry in genocide!”

President Isaac Herzog:

We are working, operating militarily in terms according to rules of international law, period. Unequivocally. It is an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup ‘d état.” (My emphasis)

This is far from new.

In 2018, when Avigdor Lieberman was Defense Minister, he declared that “there are no innocent people in the Gaza Strip” because “everyone has a connection to Hamas.”

... When a video filmed by Israeli snipers, where they celebrate their shooting of a motionless, unarmed Palestinian, surfaced on social media around that same time, Lieberman commented that they deserved a medal for their shots. I could just as well mention that Lieberman has advocated for the decapitating of “disloyal” Palestinian citizens with an axe and the drowning of Palestinian prisoners in the Dead Sea.

 

[lpetrich]

Ambassador Majed Bamya on X: "A child is a child…a simple statement of humanity by MK Aida Tuma sparks the outrage of a member of the Yesh Atid party in the Israeli Knesset. (vid link)" / X
In Hebrew, subtitled. She said "yeled hu yeled" - "a child is a child"

 

[Derec]

Sure, and Ukraine needs to get used to unprovoked Russian militray occupation and colonization, and learn to like it.

Ukraine is more like Israel. And Russia like Iran and its proxies. Think about it. Both want to destroy the other. Russia thinks Ukraine belongs to it by rights, and Iran wants to destroy Israel and replace it with an Arab, Muslim "Palestine". They both also love attacking civilians.

Look at a map of Israel. Palestinians are herd into small areas of Gaza and the West Bank. The militray occupation in the West Bank is slowly pushing Palestinians off their land. They are in the way of Israeli progress.

They could have had 97% or so of the "West Bank" had they accepted the peace deal offered to them by Barak and not decided to start the second intifada instead. Whenever Israel offers concessions, Palestinians respond with violence. Even this latest war Hamas started in a most horrific way comes at the heels of Israel agreeing to let thousands of Gazans to work inside Israel.

 

[lpetrich]

Rep AOC Discusses Israel-Palestine Conflict On MSNBC's Mehdi Hasan Show - YouTube
AOC stated that she wants (1) Hamas to release its hostages and (2) Israel and the US to do a ceasefire.

A war of self-defense? AOC noted the "asymmetry" of this moment and Israel's "collective punishment". She noted how horrible Hamas's attack was, and continued with saying that war crimes are not an acceptable response of war crimes. She then talked about Israel's blockade of water and electricity to the Gaza Strip.

She notes that in debates on the military budget, military-spending advocates talk about the precision and the technological capacities of the weapons that they want. But how is this apparent in Israel's attacks on Gaza? She called it an "indiscriminate bombing campaign", with bombing of civilian centers and churches, and use of white phosphorus.

She then asked a very important question. How much has all this death and destruction been at attacking Hamas. That's something I like about AOC - she is sometimes very perceptive, and I'm glad that someone like that is in public office.

She then mentioned "Leahy laws" - Leahy Law Fact Sheet - United States Department of State

The term “Leahy law” refers to two statutory provisions prohibiting the U.S. Government from using funds for assistance to units of foreign security forces where there is credible information implicating that unit in the commission of gross violations of human rights (GVHR). One statutory provision applies to the State Department and the other applies to the Department of Defense.

Then about Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer saying that supporting a ceasefire is "taking Hamas's position".

Though she has worked with CS a lot, she concedes disagreement. She says that we have to break the cycle of violence. She then said that 14 trucks with aid supplies is far from enough.

MH then noted that all of the supporters of a ceasefire are "people of color". He then asked how much of the rejection of a ceasefire is due to the people being attacked are Arabs or Muslims or people who don't look like them. She then noted that Palestinian issues have not gotten much visibility for a long time. Then noting when back in 2019, Prime Minister Netanyahu banned Reps. Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar from visiting Israel, with almost no objection from the rest of Congress.

She then got into the House interregnum, saying that Byron Donalds is not a serious candidate for Speaker.

Then about how some Arab Americans are not willing to vote for Joe Biden for a second term, endangering his prospects in Michigan, a swing state with a lot of Arab-Americans in it. AOC said that a big lesson from 2016 is that it's not good enough to say that you won't be as bad as the other candidate, that one shouldn't ignore the concerns of some of one's electorate just because of how bad the other candidate is.

AOC on Instagram Live there, she also addressed those issues.

 

[Copernicus]

Israeli Politician Says “Children of Gaza Have Brought This Upon Themselves” | Truthout

When children are explicitly framed as “not innocent,” all-out genocidal warfare is possible.

It was not a known hardliner who stated that, but a member of a centrist opposition party, Meirav Ben-Ari from Yair Lapid's party Yesh Atid.

Ben-Ari is evidently getting worked up as Palestinian lawmaker Aida Touma-Sliman (around two hours into the session) bemoans the loss of civilian lives “both in the area surrounding Gaza and in Gaza,” imploring to make an effort to release hostages and to “get the civilians out of the circle of blood.” “Jews as well as Arabs, Israelis as well as Palestinians.” “A child is a child,” Touma-Sliman reminds everyone, pointing out that at that point, over 900 children had been killed from Israel’s bombing of Gaza (a day later, that number swelled to well over a thousand).

All this humanity was just too much for Ben-Ari. She started shouting and heckling Touma-Sliman, saying, “There is not symmetry, there is no symmetry!”

Ms. Touma-Sliman kept reading from her prepared remarks, then referred to Ben-Ari's remarks:

“Between children there is symmetry,” she said.
Ben Ari went livid: “There is no symmetry!!”
Touma-Sliman emphasized: “A child is a child is a child.”

More from Ben-Ari:

“I did not plan to speak, of course, but I have to say one thing that should be clear: There is no symmetry. There is no symmetry. Me, my friends, ok, were on the way to the synagogue on the day of Simchat Torah, and they were shot at, only because they were Jews in this state. That’s it. And friends of mine – their children went to the party, to celebrate – seculars, religious, doesn’t matter who, only because they were Jewish, they were murdered. So there is no symmetry! And the children in Gaza – the children in Gaza have brought this upon themselves! We are a peace-seeking nation, a life-loving nation. There is no symmetry – our children are kidnapped over there!” (My emphasis)

Then ranting about Hamas using children as human shields, and saying “There is no symmetry in genocide!”

President Isaac Herzog:

We are working, operating militarily in terms according to rules of international law, period. Unequivocally. It is an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup ‘d état.” (My emphasis)

This is far from new.

In 2018, when Avigdor Lieberman was Defense Minister, he declared that “there are no innocent people in the Gaza Strip” because “everyone has a connection to Hamas.”

... When a video filmed by Israeli snipers, where they celebrate their shooting of a motionless, unarmed Palestinian, surfaced on social media around that same time, Lieberman commented that they deserved a medal for their shots. I could just as well mention that Lieberman has advocated for the decapitating of “disloyal” Palestinian citizens with an axe and the drowning of Palestinian prisoners in the Dead Sea.

Even within the Knesset there is debate over how cruel and inhumane this war can get. This argument for "symmetry" is disgusting. There will be lots of people looking for "symmetry" and having different opinions on what it looks like.

 

[Tigers!]

There are also oodles of parties that did not make it into the Knesset, and also oodles of parties that were previously represented there.

My favorite name of a party: Ani Veata (Me and You) — The Israeli People's Party

Returning to the parties already in the Knesset, those are 12 political parties or alliances, with each alliance having 2 parties, making a total of 15 parties. Estimating the effective number of parties gives 6.85 parties and alliances, and assuming a half-half split for each alliance, 7.23 parties.

Counting up the two coalitions, the governing one has 64 members and the opposition one 56 members. Both of them each have 6 parties and alliances.

PR can be wonderful can't it?

 

[Tigers!]

It is not just the existence of Israel, it is fait acompli and irreversible. It is how Plaesyimians have been treatd since Israel was formed.

Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, Iran, Al-Qaida, Islamic Jihad etc., etc. will disagree vehemently with you about the first statement. And many in the West too.
No disagreement about the 2nd part.

 

[Tigers!]

It seems the obvious needs to be stated again. I wouldn't lose any sleep if every.member of Hamas was killed.

The devil is in the details.
Hamas is embedded in the Palestinians. Like the Nazis were in mid 20th century Germany.

Imagine trying to take out the Nazis in 1942, but only the guilty ones.

Similarly, how does anyone take out the violent Zionists without the innocent Israelis?
I dunno.

It was once said, "Shoot 'em all, let God sort 'em out".

Tom

Added a link for you.

 

[Tigers!]

Barak was reacting to the assassination of his predecessor who was murdered by a Zionist for making the deal. The failure of the Oslo Accords was not because of Arafat, it was because of radical Zionists willing to kill any Israeli Prime Minister who tried to keep them from enacting their version of Zionism.

I seem to remember Arafat uttering the word "No".

 

[Arctish]

Sure, and Ukraine needs to get used to unprovoked Russian militray occupation and colonization, and learn to like it.

Ukraine is more like Israel. And Russia like Iran and its proxies. Think about it. Both want to destroy the other. Russia thinks Ukraine belongs to it by rights, and Iran wants to destroy Israel and replace it with an Arab, Muslim "Palestine". They both also love attacking civilians.

Look at a map of Israel. Palestinians are herd into small areas of Gaza and the West Bank. The militray occupation in the West Bank is slowly pushing Palestinians off their land. They are in the way of Israeli progress.

They could have had 97% or so of the "West Bank" had they accepted the peace deal offered to them by Barak and not decided to start the second intifada instead.

Show us the offer.

Show us the proposed boundaries and how they encompassed 97% of the West Bank.

Show us Barak's offer to formally recognize that area as the Palestinian State.

Don't just spin a yarn about how wonderful Ehud Barak's offer was. And don't try to sweep Yitzak Rabin's offer under the rug. Rabin offered to follow the Oslo Accords and was denounced and murdered for it. If you want to convince us that Barak's offer was a better deal for the Palestinians, or even something close to comparable, you'll have to do more than merely proclaim it.

Whenever Israel offers concessions, Palestinians respond with violence. Even this latest war Hamas started in a most horrific way comes at the heels of Israel agreeing to let thousands of Gazans to work inside Israel.

What concessions has Israel offered?

If it's "We'll stop murdering you if you stop resisting our efforts to drive you out of Palestine", then yeah, the Palestinians have responded to that one with violence.

 

[bilby]

Canada, the UK, Ireland, Australia, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, and France are all bicameral

My home state of Queensland (uniquely amongst Australian states) has a unicameral legislature.

#NotAllAustralians

 

[lpetrich]

Canada, the UK, Ireland, Australia, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, and France are all bicameral

My home state of Queensland (uniquely amongst Australian states) has a unicameral legislature.

#NotAllAustralians

I was talking about the national legislatures. The regional ones are a different story.

• The US: all bicameral except for Nebraska
• The UK: all unicameral
• Canada: all unicameral
• Australia: all bicameral except for Queensland
• Germany: all unicameral