Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[laughing dog]

Basic reasoning suggests that in a two choice option, less than 45% is not very popular or even popular.

That does not follow either from basic reasoning nor from meaning of English words. Double fail on your part, but you should be used to it by now.

The fact you have yet to show how in a two choice option that 45% is “ very popular” suggests your claim is nonsense.

In your zeal to paint Palestinians as a group as genocidal anti-semites,

Which they are.

Wow. Broad brushing bigotry.

Hamas being popular among Palestinians and them being a group of genocidal anti-semites are not mutually exclusive. Many, if not most, Palestinians are genocidal anti-semites themselves. Just look at how they celebrated the 10/7 massacre. And 9/11 for that matter.

Wow. The bigotry just oozes out in every response.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Except Hamas isn't a nation state.

It waddles and quacks.

Fires missiles and takes hostages and collects support from other governments and...
Tom

Nothing on your list is evidence that it's a nation state.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

[

Pretty much everything is does is terror or in support of terror. We'll help you rebuild--but we get to store stuff in your house.

Your opiniom is neither evidence not prof that Hamas only engages im terror.

What terrorist incident are you blaming Israel for?

I do agree there is some terrorism by the settlers--but much of it appears to be blaming the settlers for things they didn't do. The standard approach is to report bad things as having been due to Israel without regard for whether Israel had anything to do with them.

Enabling settlers to kill or terrorze Israeli Arabs and the IDF to kill citizens is terrorism.

And your evidence that they aren't simply defending themselves from attacks is...

 

[Loren Pechtel]

She is also on record wanting to abolish Israel.

I cannot find any statement from her to corroborate your claim, but you don't bother to support it. What I have seen is that she supports a one-state solution. To me, that seems extremely unlikely to happen, although it would be the one I would favor ideologically, if it were practical and possible. That is not a desire to abolish Israel, but to transform it into a multiethnic nation in the same sense that the United States is a multiethnic country.

"One state solution" is a dog whistle for the destruction of Israel.

Do you mean "genocidal"? If so, I would say that at least some Israelis consider their government policy in responding to the October 7 attack is genocidal--to target anyone in Gaza regardless of whether they had anything to do with that attack or even supported Hamas in any way. And that point has even been made by a few critical PMs in the Knesset. I stand by my statement.

Israel isn't targeting everyone in Gaza, that's just propaganda. They're targeting Hamas, it's just that Hamas is riddled through the population.

Hamas will use Israel's excessive retaliation as a means of recruiting future terrorists and spreading more hatred and violence in the Middle East.

Which is why it is important to crush Hamas once and for all. Otherwise, they will rebuild their rocket stockpiles, recruit more teenagers, and attack Israel again in a few years, like they have been doing for decades.

Very definitely, but half the population of the Gaza Strip is children or teenagers, many of whom are being slaughtered in the Israeli bombardment. Has it not occurred to you that the survivors of this debacle will feel motivated to join terrorist campaigns against Israel in the future? Do you not understand that this is a blood feud in which each side feels a need to settle scores? Israel has already killed far more Palestinians than Israelis who were killed and abducted on October 7. And that disparity will only grow wider as Israel presses its ground incursion into the Strip. If hostages are killed in the process, I will be surprised to hear that the Israeli government admits that any of them died by friendly fire. This ground invasion is definitely going to result in more hostages being killed, possibly the majority of those remaining alive today.

It's not how many low level people Hamas has. That's part of what Hamas is doing--devastating the area so they can recruit easier. It's what equipment they have--and that's what Israel is going for.

Tlaib has called for an end to the root causes of the blood feud between Palestinians and Israelis that have led up to the current violence.

According to her, existence of Israel is the "root cause". Not Islamism or antisemitism. Just Israel.

Yes, she is pro-Palestinian all the way. Not pro-Hamas. I have seen nothing from her that suggests she thinks Hamas are good guys, that their use of terrorism is acceptable, or that she supports their control of the government in the Gaza Strip. And it is a fact that Israel itself has partially funded Hamas in the past.

How the West—and Israel Itself—Inadvertently Funded Hamas​

Moreover, the Netanyahu government has been particularly supportive of a policy of weakening the control of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank in order to strengthen the Hamas government of the Gaza Strip as a way of playing each side off against the other. It is now coming out that the Netanyahu government has been extremely complacent and lax in recognizing the danger that Hamas extremists posed, and that is now coming back to haunt Netanyahu.

If the money provided Hamas is less than what was expended in the Fatah/Hamas civil war then Israel ends up ahead. Without a comparison between the two there's no way to figure out if it was a good plan.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Not mentioning Hamas or the massacre means a lot.

She didn't actually mention Israel, either, but everyone already knew the parties engaged in combat. Tlaib expressed her opinion that the terrorist attack had been long in coming and that Israel could have avoided it, if it had tried to resolve issues earlier instead of essentially quarantining and ignoring the Palestinian populations in Gaza and the West Bank. That is not the same as endorsing the terrorist regime in Gaza, which Israel itself knew was a terrorist regime. And it is also an opinion held by a significant minority of Non-Palestinian Israelis.

The violence predates the settlements and the like. It's Israel's very existence that causes the violence.

And there is not a meaningful peace movement in Israel--they've seen what peace attempts bring.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Rep. Rashida Tlaib's Press Releases

Tlaib Statement on Ongoing Violence in Israel and Palestine - Rashida Tlaib - Oct 8

I grieve the Palestinian and Israeli lives lost yesterday, today, and every day. I am determined as ever to fight for a just future where everyone can live in peace, without fear and with true freedom, equal rights, and human dignity. The path to that future must include lifting the blockade, ending the occupation, and dismantling the apartheid system that creates the suffocating, dehumanizing conditions that can lead to resistance. The failure to recognize the violent reality of living under siege, occupation, and apartheid makes no one safer. No person, no child anywhere should have to suffer or live in fear of violence. We cannot ignore the humanity in each other. As long as our country provides billions in unconditional funding to support the apartheid government, this heartbreaking cycle of violence will continue.

Which is attempting the Palestinian position hook, line and sinker. The driving force is money provided to the terrorists.

Tlaib Calls on Biden Administration to Do More to Save Civilian Lives - Rashida Tlaib - Oct 13

I am calling for immediate de-escalation and ceasefire to save countless civilian lives, no matter their faith or ethnicity. Our government must lead with compassion for all civilians. I believe in my heart that the majority of Americans want the killing and violence to stop. War crimes cannot be answered with war crimes.

...

And we still don't have evidence of Israeli war crimes here.

Tlaib Statement on Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital - Rashida Tlaib - Oct 23

Media outlets and third-party analysts have raised doubts about claims and evidence offered by both Israel and the Gaza Ministry of Health, and I agree with the United Nations that an independent investigation is necessary. I cannot uncritically accept Israel’s denials of responsibility as fact, especially in light of confirmation from the World Health Organization that Israel has bombed numerous medical facilities in Gaza and reports from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society of ongoing threats from the Israeli military to evacuate hospitals.

Hamas does not respect the non-combatant status of medical facilities.

Both the Israeli and United States governments have long, documented histories of misleading the public about wars and war crimes—like last year’s Israeli military assassination of Shireen Abu Akleh and the false claims of weapons of mass destruction that led our country into the Iraq War—and cannot clear themselves of responsibility without an independent international investigation. This debate should not distract us from the urgent need for a ceasefire to save innocent civilian lives.

And we still don't have proof that she was hit by an Israeli round or that it was aimed at her. It's most likely she was hit by a stray round from other combat.

Tlaib Statement on Resolution That Doesn’t Mourn Palestinian Lives - Rashida Tlaib - Oct 25

I have and continue to denounce the killing of civilians, no matter their faith or ethnicity. Targeting civilians is a war crime, no matter who does it. Do not confuse my vote against this one-sided resolution with a lack of empathy for all those who are grieving. I voted against this resolution because it is a deeply incomplete and biased account of what is happening in Israel and Palestine, and what has been happening for decades. This resolution rightly mourns the thousands of Israeli civilians killed and wounded in the horrific attacks but explicitly does not mourn the thousands of Palestinian civilians, including over 2,000 children, killed and wounded in the collective punishment of Palestine. How does treating Palestinian civilians as less than fully human, as legitimate targets for retribution, bring us closer to a just and lasting peace?

...

And who targeted civilians? Hamas.

Tlaib Statement on Marjorie Taylor Greene’s Censure Resolution - Rashida Tlaib - Oct 26

Marjorie Taylor Greene’s unhinged resolution is deeply Islamophobic and attacks peaceful Jewish anti-war advocates. I am proud to stand in solidarity with Jewish peace advocates calling for a ceasefire and an end to the violence. I will not be bullied, I will not be dehumanized, and I will not be silenced. I will continue to call for ceasefire, for the immediate delivery of humanitarian aid, for the release of hostages and those arbitrarily detained, and for every American to be brought home. I will continue to work for a just and lasting peace that upholds the human rights and dignity of all people, and ensures that no person, no child has to suffer or live in fear of violence.

A call for a cease-fire is a call for Hamas to repeat the attack.

Hamas Official Ghazi Hamad: We Will Repeat The October 7 Attack, Time And Again, Until Israel Is Annihilated; We Are Victims – Everything We Do Is Justified

Ghazi Hamad of the Hamas political bureau said in an October 24, 2023 show on LBC TV (Lebanon) that Hamas is prepared to...

www.memri.org

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I find it telling that some people consider Rashida Tlaib's statements a much worse outrage than even the worst of Marjorie Taylor Greene's statements. Like threatening violence against fellow Congressmembers.

MTG is simply bonkers. Rashida Talib is supporting a massacre. Sane evil is worse than insane evil.

 

[laughing dog]

[

And your evidence that they aren't simply defending themselves from attacks is...

Reality.

The ratio of civilian to combatant kill ratios. The fact settlers go unpunished when they kill or attack Palestinians.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Says who?

You?

The One State solution couldn't possibly be the Union of Israel and Palestine? It couldn't be a secular state with equal rights guaranteed in its Constitution and enforced by its courts? It has to be winner-take-all ethnic cleansing and genocide?

Hamas explicitly wants a genocide. Why in the world do you think they wouldn't do what they say they want to do?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel to perform Christ miracle by providing aid to 2 million Gazans using only 80 trucks. Housing, food, medical, water needs using only 80 trucks for 2 million Gazans would easily surpass Christ serving over one thousand people using just two loaves of bread and a couple boxes of frozen fish sticks!

There are already plenty of resources in Gaza--it's just Hamas wants the people to suffer. Same thing Saddam did--denied resources to his people so they would suffer while he used the money on weapons. It's standard tactics in the scum ruler book.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I find it telling that some people consider Rashida Tlaib's statements a much worse outrage than even the worst of Marjorie Taylor Greene's statements. Like threatening violence against fellow Congressmembers.

Derec and Loren Pechtel clearly want to believe that she is a supporter of Hamas, even though there is no evidence of it in her statements. There seems to be no middle ground for them. Either she supports Israel, or she supports Hamas. If she opposes treating Palestinians as unavoidable collateral damage in order to destroy Hamas, then she must favor treating murdered and abducted Israelis in Hamas's war against Israel as their side's "collateral damage". All I can find in her statements is the opinion that no collateral damage can be justified in the pursuit of either side's violent goals. How many innocent lives must be destroyed for either side to reach what it considers a final solution? The violence cannot solve the problem. It is the problem.

Israeli strike on Gaza’s Jabalya refugee camp causes many casualties, officials say​

Collateral damage?

You seem to be unable to tell the difference between collateral damage and targets. Hamas explicitly set out to massacre and take hostages. Explicit war crimes.

So far I've seen no reports of Israeli actions that rise to the level of war crimes. It is not a war crime to hit military targets hidden among civilians.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Sure, Hamas most likely was there, taking advantage of the protection a refugee camp is supposed to provide refugees (you know... refuge). But it is still a refugee camp! I can't imagine attacking a refugee camp being anything but a war crime. The term war crime sometimes can be exaggerated, but a refugee camp can't possibly be on the list of acceptable military targets as far as treaties are concerned.

Sure, the Gazan officials will exaggerate the death toll, but is 50 to 100 dead REFUGEES a "tragedy of war" or a complete and utter disregard for civilian life? Civilians displaced in the camp by the actions of the Israeli military. Was targeting another "senior" Hamas official worth the lives of many refugees lost? How in the heck can anyone expect such an attack not to breed extremism and a dozen more future "senior" Hamas officials?

Your lack of imagination does not make it so.

1) It's a "refugee camp" that looks an awful lot like a city, not like what you imagine.

2) Note they got the guy they were shooting at. It was a war crime--but on the part of Hamas in using human shield tactics. Not on Israel.

And a back-of-the-envelope estimate of casualties is to divide what Hamas says by 10. (The "Gazan" officials are Hamas puppets. Gaza has no government independent of Hamas.)

War is hell, Hamas is exploiting that to deceive you.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I can't imagine attacking a refugee camp being anything but a war crime.

Can you imagine placing a military installation, complete with weapons stockpiles and missile launching platforms in a refugee camp as a war crime?

You know, the war crime that is causing so much suffering and death amongst both the Israelis and Palestinians?
Tom

But that would mean Hamas is evil and the Jews are not to blame. You fail to understand that the underdog is always right and the Jews are always wrong.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Don't think anyone is going to say Hamas is in the right using such a location to stage themselves. Hama

Nevertheless, you referred to Israeli attacks on military installations as war crimes.

"Military installations"? That is a stretch.

Dispersed military installations. A little bit here, a little bit there, make Israel pretty much take down the city to get it all.

It's the Palestinians who require that Israel respond to attacks that way, not the Israelis.

The average Palestinian has a bit less control over Hamas than you seem to be under the impression they have.

How much control they have is irrelevant. It's their government.

The war crimes are almost, but not quite, all from Hamas.

Yes, and that is part of the problem, both what Hamas is doing, and what you seem to be suggesting to support.

Hamas chose the current situation. Iran helped, but Hamas is the government.

They are warlords, not a government, no one gave that longshot a try.

And none of this addressed the question I asked whether Israel's actions were worth the price. How many commanders of Hamas are there?

So Hamas should be allowed to use enough human shields to make Israel unable to defend itself?? No, that's not the way the world works. Israel is expected not to inflict more civilian casualties than it needs to in order to accomplish it's military goals--and we have no evidence that they are exceeding this. Hamas, however, is repeatedly using Palestinians as human shields--a war crime every time they do it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"Military installations"? That is a stretch.

A missile launching installation is a legitimate target, even if it's installed on the roof of a hospital.

Does Hamas install stationary missile launching installations on hospital roofs? That's the first time I've seen that claim. Are there pictures? Do you have a source to at least attribute to the allegation? Forgive me, but it sounds like a scenario that you are imagining. Can you link to an article where someone claims there was such an installation on the roof of any hospital in Gaza? I've searched for one, but all I come up with are a gazillion links over allegations that Israeli missiles have or have not struck hospitals.

Hamas moves them around, I doubt there are any stationary launchers.

However, rockets keep launching from next to things that shouldn't have rockets. Look at the hospital incident--specifically, note the flash followed a couple of seconds later by a much bigger flash. That's the result of hitting stuff on the ground. Whoever triggered it (and an IJ misfire is by far the most likely cause) set off stuff that was sitting there. They had rockets in the parking lot.

If the hospital staff had a problem with becoming a target, the time to do something was before the military installation started launching missiles. Not blame the response to the missiles for "war crimes".

If you don't want your facility targeted, don't let anybody put a military target on your roof.

Doctors and nurses are supposed to chase away armed Hamas terrorists? I have trouble picturing in my mind how that would work, but I imagine a lot of people would be fleeing that hospital if they knew of a missile launcher on the roof. My understanding of most of the Hamas rocket and missile launchers was that they were mobile and on the street. They could be moved near hospitals and densely populated areas for the launch, but then moved away to prevent being retaliated against. It seems to me that part of the Hamas strategy is to get Israel to do exactly what it is doing--target facilities and areas that are war crimes by international law. If so, the strategy seems to be working.

Except there are no locations that are war crimes. Hitting military stuff is permitted. Aiming for purely civilian things is a war crime. Anything being used for military purposes is a valid target, not a war crime.

Pretending that Gazans are unable to do that doesn't make IDF the perp. Palestinians chose having legitimate military targets placed where they are, not Jews or Israelis or even Zionists.
Palestinians.
Picked.
It.

Tom

I agree that Hamas terrorists are Palestinians, but it is obvious that most Palestinians being killed did not choose to be made targets. I also wonder why you are so convinced that there are missile launchers on the roofs of hospitals in Gaza. Or that reference to a missile platform in the Jabalya camp? I can't find anything to corroborate that, although Hamas may have stored weapons near or under that camp.

I don't think he means it literally, but rather using it as an example -- that a launcher sitting on a hospital is a valid target despite the hospital underneath. Hamas isn't going to put a launcher on top of a building because they would have no way to quickly roll it away and it would be taken out by something like a Hellfire.

 

[lpetrich]

H.Res.829 - 118th Congress (2023-2024): Censuring Representative Rashida Tlaib for antisemitic activity, sympathizing with terrorist organizations, and leading an insurrection at the United States Capitol Complex. | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

Office of the Clerk, U.S. House of Representatives - Vote Details
Roll Call 559 | Bill Number: H. Res. 829
Nov 01, 2023, 07:07 PM | 118th Congress, 1st Session
Vote Question: On Motion to Table
Censuring Representative Rashida Tlaib for antisemitic activity, sympathizing with terrorist organizations, and leading an insurrection at the United States Capitol Complex
Vote Type: Yea-And-Nay
Status: Passed
Essentially putting that resolution aside.
R: Y 23, N 186, nv 11
D: Y 199, nv 13
Ttl: Y 222, N 186, nv 24

 

[lpetrich]

Tlaib Statement on Funding Netanyahu’s Genocide - Rashida Tlaib

The American people do not support funding for war crimes—like the use of white phosphorus bombs—and are calling for a ceasefire. As the Israeli government carries out ethnic cleansing in Gaza, President Biden is cheering on Netanyahu, whose own citizens are protesting his refusal to support a ceasefire. We must be laser focused on saving lives, no matter their faith or ethnicity. The number of children killed in Gaza in just three weeks has surpassed the annual number of children killed across the world’s conflict zones since 2019—yet instead of helping end this violence, President Biden baselessly casts doubt on the Palestinian death toll. U.S. funding for the Israeli military with no humanitarian conditions will take us farther away from ending the violence and reaching peace. Achieving a just and lasting peace requires lifting the blockade, ending the occupation, and dismantling the dehumanizing system of apartheid. Not only do some of my colleagues want to send more weapons to carry out war crimes and violations of international law, but they want to do it by providing tax breaks to billionaires and undermining crucial investments in our communities. Instead of funding more bombs with American taxpayer dollars, our leaders should be calling for a ceasefire now, before this violence claims thousands more lives.

 

[Arctish]

Says who?

You?

The One State solution couldn't possibly be the Union of Israel and Palestine? It couldn't be a secular state with equal rights guaranteed in its Constitution and enforced by its courts? It has to be winner-take-all ethnic cleansing and genocide?

Hamas explicitly wants a genocide. Why in the world do you think they wouldn't do what they say they want to do?

And your evidence that supports this claim is...?

And before you start with your usual bullshit, I'll just remind you that wanting Israel to be reformed is not the same thing as wanting it to be destroyed, and wanting Israel to be defeated is not the same thing as wanting genocide.

ETA: I'm still waiting for a list of concessions Israel has made to the Palestinian people. Don't rely on Derec to support your claims for you. You have to do it yourself.

 

[lpetrich]

Israel Gaza live news: Israel says its troops have encircled Gaza City - BBC News

• Israel's military says it has "completed the encirclement of Gaza City" and has been attacking outposts, headquarters and other Hamas infrastructure
• The UN says 20 people were killed at a school and four shelters were damaged in the Gaza Strip
• Israel has carried out thousands of air and artillery strikes on Gaza since 7 October
• Israel began its operation after Hamas killed more than 1,400 people in Israel and kidnapped more than 200 others
• The military says it's targeting Hamas infrastructure, including tunnels and rocket launchers, and is minimising civilian deaths
• The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says more than 9,000 people have been killed in the Strip since 7 October

US President Joe Biden calls for 'pause' in Israel-Gaza conflict - BBC News

The president was making a campaign speech in Minneapolis when a heckler urged him to call for a ceasefire.

"I think we need a pause," he replied, saying that it would allow for hostages to get out.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What concessions has Israel offered?

Like 98% of the West Bank right before Arafat said "no" to any further negotiations and proclaimed the 2nd Intifada where many Israelis got murdered by terrorists.

I've heard it was 92%.

I've also heard it was 78%.

And I've heard it was ~90% of whatever parts of the West Bank that had not been claimed by Israel, occupied by settlers (both legal and illegal), or set aside for the IDF at the time of the implementation of the plan.

What I have not heard is the proposed borders, when and how the land would be formally recognized as not a part of Israel, the method of transfer of control (the one used in the Oslo Accords failed), or anything other than rumors, and neither have you. Do you want to know how I know that? I'll give you a hint. It has to do with the way the Camp David talks were conducted.

None of that is relevant. If he didn't like the details he could have made a counter-offer.

The important point is that he walked in the face of an offer that was pretty close to what he was supposedly asking for. He couldn't make a counter-offer because it might be accepted and that would throw a major monkey wrench into their desire for ethnic cleansing of all of Israel.