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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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From the late 40s to last month, the Islamists who prefer peace and prosperity over violent cultural and religious domination haven't gotten much done. Hamas and their ilk have.
I don't know that I'd go that far. Many Palestinian communities have been built despite Hamas and their theft of anything that can be used to make weapons.
What communities are you referring to?

I see Gaza like a hospital patient in the ICU because he shot up the nursing staff.
Tom
 
In your zeal to paint Palestinians as a group as genocidal anti-semites, your misrepresentations do your arguments a disservice.

Derec doesn't need help. Hamas has already done that.
Hamas does not represent the Palestinians. Using the same ignorant broadbrush technique of ours to the gov’t if Israel indicates Israelis are genocidal anti/Palestinian.
 
Hamas does not represent the Palestinians.
Yeah they do.
That's why they run the place.

So effectively that they can put missile launchers on hospital roofs and Palestinians don't care enough to remove them.
Tom
Palestinians live in Gaza, the West Bank and in the diaspora around the world. Hamas does run Gaza but not the West Bank nor the rest of the world. There have been no elections in Gaza since 2006, so it is rather presumptuous to claim that the residents of Gaza support Hamas or that Hama actually represents Gazans.

If you expect ordinary citizens to routinely risk death to themselves and their families to defy murderous gov'ts, you really should learn human history.

But, again, applying your reasoning, ordinary Israelis are genocidal anti-Palestinian. If not, they would be stopping the IDF's killing of civilians. Yet, for some reason, you seem unable or unwilling to judge Israel with the same rubric you apply to "Palestinians".

In the future if you mean Gazans, you should refer to Gazans and avoid making ridiculous broadbrush pronouncements.
 
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Hamas does not represent the Palestinians.
Yeah they do.
That's why they run the place.

So effectively that they can put missile launchers on hospital roofs and Palestinians don't care enough to remove them.
Tom

I ask you once again to provide some citation to corroborate your claim about missile launchers on hospital roofs. Please do not ignore my request. I have genuinely looked and found nothing to support it.

Even if such a facility existed, how would unarmed civilians go about dismantling a facility manned by armed Hamas fighters? Do you think shouting curses would work?
 
Hamas vows to repeat the 10/7 attack on Israel until Israel is destroyed.

Ceasefire with this? So that they can do this again, and again?
 
Hamas vows to repeat the 10/7 attack on Israel until Israel is destroyed.

Ceasefire with this? So that they can do this again, and again?


Yes. Otherwise there can never be ceasefires ever in any war, because there will always be people like this on both sides of the war. The Israeli side does not lack for those who would like to drive all Palestinian Arabs out of Israel and have them scattered into other countries. The first step towards peace is to halt the violence. The hardest part is keeping the violence in check while both sides try to find ways to resolve their grievances against each other.



What would it prove if this were enhanced by AI? That every such picture is faked? If you eliminate this picture from the public record, there are plenty of similar pictures and videos that are not fakes.
 
1840. What might conservatives say?

Native Americans just launched an unprovoked attack on Texas

(They took hostages, massacred people, and burned down Linville).

"I bet that Abraham Lincoln fella is rejoicing!"

"The Texas army should burn down their villages. Smoke em out!"

"The Injun chiefs are hoarding everything they stole!"

"Children aren't dying. They're faking it!"

Reasonable people of the time would be supporting deescalation, peace and a just outcome.
 

From the late 40s to last month, the Islamists who prefer peace and prosperity over violent cultural and religious domination haven't gotten much done. Hamas and their ilk have.
Tom
Yes. Abbas and Fatah haven't gotten much done.

The Zionist faction that was willing to kill the Prime Minister who was allowing Palestinians to form a State in Palestine is still unwilling to allow the Palestinians to succeed in either fully joining Israel or fully separating from it. Like an abusive spouse who keeps beating their partner into submission and making credible threats to murder them if they try to leave, Israel continues to imprison civilians it doesn't want as citizens and refusing to leave them in peace.

The situation in Gaza has been festering for decades, and the situation in the West Bank isn't much better.

If you want Islamists who prefer peace and prosperity to succeed, you have to allow them to succeed. And if they need help succeeding, you should want to help them.
 
The situation in Gaza has been festering for decades, and the situation in the West Bank isn't much better.
It's terribly unfortunate that Islamist leaders hate peace and prosperity, but they demonstrably do.

Hamas is just one of the many Muslim governments that make that clear. "We will kill until we rule".

That's just how Muslim culture is. Not that different from medieval Catholics or 19th century American protestants.
Submit or die
Tom
 
The 1000 lb gorilla in the room is that Netanyahu was so busy trying become a dictator of Israel so he didn't go to prison over his crimes, that he was caught with his pants down in this attack much like the W Admin was in 2001 when they were prioritizing Cold War era missile defense and tax cuts.
I don't think that's the 1000# gorilla in the room.
The gorilla is authoritarianism and violence in the Muslim culture.

Ugly as Israeli responses have been, they've always been responses to a military assault or an intifada or something, for decades.


There's plenty of blame to spread around over the last several decades. But the nightmare going on right now is clearly because Hamas doesn't care about Gazans as much as they do staying in power. Hamas started something on Oct 7. It did not, and could not, benefit the Palestinians in any way. But they did it any way, because Gazans don't matter until they're martyrs.
Martyrs for Hamas.

Tom
If only authoritarianism and violence were limited to Muslim culture! You appear to know nearly nothing about Muslim culture. The government of many muslim countries have much less in common with the teachings of Islam than you seem to think they do.

Clearly, Hamas cares mostly about staying in power. They have that in common with Bibi. Neither side cares nearly enough about the 'collateral damage' done to the people they purport to represent and defend.
 
Hamas does not represent the Palestinians.
Yeah they do.
That's why they run the place.

So effectively that they can put missile launchers on hospital roofs and Palestinians don't care enough to remove them.
Tom
Is it your belief that Hamas openly put missile launchers on the roof of the hospital despite the likelihood they would be seen installing them by the IDF, or that the hospital staff is so hyperaware of what is going on outside while being overwhelmed with critically injured patients that you can fault them for not arming themselves to fight off terrorists in between emergency surgeries?
 
Hamas does not represent the Palestinians.
Yeah they do.
That's why they run the place.

So effectively that they can put missile launchers on hospital roofs and Palestinians don't care enough to remove them.
Tom
Is it your belief that Hamas openly put missile launchers on the roof of the hospital despite the likelihood they would be seen installing them by the IDF, or that the hospital staff is so hyperaware of what is going on outside while being overwhelmed with critically injured patients that you can fault them for not arming themselves to fight off terrorists in between emergency surgeries?

I keep asking Tom to provide some evidence for his conviction that Hamas installs rooftop missile launchers, and I'm hoping that he'll do that. It's clear that he believes they do that. If they did, it would be pretty stupid. The idea is not to have your limited number of expensive missile launchers targeted and destroyed. That's why smart terrorists launch from the back of trucks and then skedaddle.
 
And I've heard it was ~90% of whatever parts of the West Bank that had not been claimed by Israel, occupied by settlers (both legal and illegal), or set aside for the IDF at the time of the implementation of the plan.
There were far fewer settlers back in 2000. And many settlements would have been abandoned under the deal offered the Palestinians.

Arafat wanted no less than 100% and also wanted millions of descendens of 1948 to move into Israel. Which is a total non-starter and as long as Palestinians insist on the so-called "right of return" the peace process will not go anywhere.

What I have not heard is the proposed borders, when and how the land would be formally recognized as not a part of Israel, the method of transfer of control (the one used in the Oslo Accords failed), or anything other than rumors, and neither have you.
Because the arch-terrorist Arafat broke off negotiations before details could be hashed out.

, I was asking for the list of concessions you keep talking about, not some alleged offer one guy may have made behind closed doors.
There were others. Disengagement from Gaza was a concession. Giving Gazans work permits inside Israel is a concession.
And Israel has shown willingness to negotiate for peace with other entities. There was a peace treaty with Egypt for example. There was rapprochement with Saudi Arabia that was going well until the Hamas terrorist attack on 10/7.

It is the Palestinians who are preventing the peace process, not Israel.

Also, you really should look into the origin and growth of the Second Intifada. You are utterly wrong in thinking Arafat "proclaimed" it.
Then who did? Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount in any case was an excuse, not a reason, for the terrorist violence of the so-called "Second Intifada".
 
Basic reasoning suggests that in a two choice option, less than 45% is not very popular or even popular.
That does not follow either from basic reasoning nor from meaning of English words. Double fail on your part, but you should be used to it by now.

The poll does indicate given the two choices at the time, Hamas was more popular than Fatah.
So they are, by far (45%-19%) the most popular faction. How does that not make them popular?

In your zeal to paint Palestinians as a group as genocidal anti-semites,
Which they are.

your misrepresentations do your arguments a disservice. Not that they need much help in that regard, but it makes one suspect anything you claim as true.
Hamas being popular among Palestinians and them being a group of genocidal anti-semites are not mutually exclusive. Many, if not most, Palestinians are genocidal anti-semites themselves. Just look at how they celebrated the 10/7 massacre. And 9/11 for that matter.
 
And I've heard it was ~90% of whatever parts of the West Bank that had not been claimed by Israel, occupied by settlers (both legal and illegal), or set aside for the IDF at the time of the implementation of the plan.
There were far fewer settlers back in 2000. And many settlements would have been abandoned under the deal offered the Palestinians.

Where is the evidence that supports this claim?
Arafat wanted no less than 100% and also wanted millions of descendens of 1948 to move into Israel. Which is a total non-starter and as long as Palestinians insist on the so-called "right of return" the peace process will not go anywhere.

And where is the evidence that supports this one?

Also, Arafat may have wanted 100% of Palestine under Palestinian control and a return of all Palestinian refugees it but it is clear he was willing to accept much less. The evidence that supports my claim can be found here.
What I have not heard is the proposed borders, when and how the land would be formally recognized as not a part of Israel, the method of transfer of control (the one used in the Oslo Accords failed), or anything other than rumors, and neither have you.
Because the arch-terrorist Arafat broke off negotiations before details could be hashed out.

The reason is because none of the alleged offers were written down.

For some reason you have faith Barak's offer was as good as what was offered in the Oslo Accords, or very nearly as good, with none of the flaws that caused the Oslo Accords to fail. I don't share your faith, therefore I don't see how that's possible.

Rabin was assassinated for offering ~20% of Palestine to the Palestinians so they could form their own State. You seem to think Barak was offering more.

Under the Oslo Accords the transfer of control of land took place in stages with final borders to be determined at the end of the transfer process, in about 20 years or so. And during that time, settlements could still be built, leading to a land grab by Zionists as the Accords were being implemented. You seem to think settlement building was going to stop and the borders would be decided right then and there at Camp David. Not only is that not likely, it's contrary to Israeli policy all the way back to the founding of the State of Israel.

I don't believe Barak was that brave, that generous, that much of an innovator, or even that much of a leader.

IMO your faith in Ehud Barak is misplaced.
, I was asking for the list of concessions you keep talking about, not some alleged offer one guy may have made behind closed doors.
There were others. Disengagement from Gaza was a concession.

Israel did not disengage. It built a wall around the concentration camp and stationed its soldiers there. That's repositioning the troops so provide greater advantage and clear lines of fire, not a disengagement.
Giving Gazans work permits inside Israel is a concession.

Okay, I'll accept that as a concession.

It's not much of a concession, but it's a start.
And Israel has shown willingness to negotiate for peace with other entities. There was a peace treaty with Egypt for example. There was rapprochement with Saudi Arabia that was going well until the Hamas terrorist attack on 10/7.

That's not a concession, and even if it was, it's not a concession made to the Palestinians.

Basically all you have is: Israel lets Palestinians pick crops on the farms they used to own, and do other low paying jobs, sometimes.
It is the Palestinians who are preventing the peace process, not Israel.

Also, you really should look into the origin and growth of the Second Intifada. You are utterly wrong in thinking Arafat "proclaimed" it.
Then who did? Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount in any case was an excuse, not a reason, for the terrorist violence of the so-called "Second Intifada".
You really should look into the origin and growth of the Second Intifada.

You can start here if you'd like.
 
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