Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Arctish]

What makes you think that any significant numbers of Gazans oppose the goals and methods of Hamas and their ilk?
Tom

Let's see. They did not flock en masse to Hamas's assistance during the war. I;ve seen little evidence they are supporting Hamas now.

My guess is that most Gazans just wish to be left alone and have as comfortable a life as possible. Just like most Israelis or anyone else.

Most Gazans are kids and stay-at-home moms.

 

[laughing dog]

Most Gazans are kids and stay-at-home moms.

Yeah, but if they aren't continually and effectively resisting Hamas, they deserve all the death and destruction they receive!!!!!

 

[Tigers!]

What I know is that the cycle of violence is so ingrained that there appears to be no way to stop it.

There is a way. It's the same way peace was achieved in every conflict that ended in peace. But it means no one gets everything they want, and that's a problem for racist bigots who think they can get more if they're brutal enough to take it.

Are you blaming just Israel with the term "racist bigots" or are you spreading your love more widely to include Hamas (and too many Gazans)?

Are you seriously asking me that question, or are you just pretending to not know the answer?

Since you are wont to blame Israel for nearly everything that happens in Gaza, West Bank, Lebanon etc. I was not sure whether you your term "racist bigots" applied to just Israel or more widely spread. Who are the "racist bigots" to which you refer?

 

[Tigers!]

The question I was asked was "Should you or I ... work for a Nazi-like organisation?
Saying you are retired is a dodge, not an answer.

No, i am retired and in no need of work. That is not a dodge. - it is the truth.

I will say that I could not work for a Nazi-like organisation.

Even if it meant being able to feed your family because nothing else was available?

That is a problem many people to face. No easy solution.
Myself would not work for an organisation that kills with gay abandon.
Others will need to search their conscience. As always Our choices and actions have consequences we can all too often not control.

 

[Tigers!]

The Gazans are not entirely blameless. They had opportunity to try to prevent Hamas from fully taking over and did not seem to take it.

You mean rising up en masse and participating in the civil war between Hamas and Fatah?

How many politically unaffiliated Gazans do you think had weapons and access to bullets? How were they supposed to prevent Hamas from fully taking over? You're talking about a population living on the edge of malnutrition that couldn't get their goods to markets, couldn't get to their own fishing grounds, could barely get enough electricity to keep their bare-bones economy functioning, had barely enough potable water to meet minimum daily requirements, etc.

How were the Gazans supposed to prevent Hamas from taking over?

And why would they bother when Israel was going to kick the shit out of them either way?

Israel was their biggest problem.

The biggest problem (for the Gazans) is their seemingly insatiable desire to attack Jews.

I have no idea what media outlet led you to believe that Gazans have a "seemingly insatiable desire to attack Jews", but I suspect it is a place that caters to racists and religious bigots.

What evidence have you seen that led you to believe that nonsense? Are you just going by feelings here? Do you "feel" that Gazans have an insatiable desire to attack Jews, as opposed to them having an unmet desire to be left alone by IDF soldiers who have imprisoned them and by the rightwing Zionist politicians who want to drive them out of their homeland?

Hamas has attacked Israel many times with seemingly no-one within Gaza trying to stop them, as far as we know. If you have evidence of people within Gaza who tried to stop Hamas from attacking Israel at any time , not just Oct 2023, knowing that Israel would retaliate, then do let us know.

You made a claim about Gazans.

You said "They had opportunity to try to prevent Hamas from fully taking over and did not seem to take it."

If you have evidence of people within Gaza having an opportunity to prevent Hamas from fully taking over aside from the civil war that resulted in at least 161 deaths and more than 700 people wounded which I have already cited with links, then do let us know.

What opportunity are you talking about? And why are you ignoring the bloody battles literally fought in the streets of Gaza to prevent the Hamas takeover? Did you forget about that? Hamas took over in Gaza.

Have not forgotten about those battles.
I also note the huge numbers of deaths that have occurred on both sides since Hamas took over in Gaza.
The strange paradox is that if the PA had stayed in control of Gaza the death toll on both sides would probably be significantly lass than it is now.

I ran the numbers back in this post. You are using the results of an election in which Hamas got less than half of the votes to blame millions of people too young to have participated for their enclave being run by a terrorist organization that has all of the guns. And you're being particularly racist by casting their legitimate grievances as an insatiable desire for violence against your preferred racial/religious group.

If it were not Hamas then it would be Fatah or Islmaic Jihad or other of the assortment of anti-Jewish groups that proliferate in that area.
When Israel pulled out in 2005 both were given the opportunity to give peace a chance. They did not take it.

Who is "they"?

Israel, Hamas, Gazans. Anyone who had the opportunity to try to use the Israeli retreat to forge a new, better environment for both areas.

The people of Gaza and international investors did take the opportunity to forge a new, better environment.

Have you completely forgotten about the greenhouse project? Remember what happened to it?

Yes I remember.
American Jewish donors brought > 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for about $14 million dollars. Then had them transferred to the Palestinian Authority (PA)
On Tuesday 13th September 2005 looters from within the Gaza area took and /or destroyed much of the donated equipment.

Is that the greenhouse project to which you refer?

And of course there was the project to rebuild the power plant. That was a big one. And then the power plant was hit again so there was another project to rebuild it.

And there were all the smaller projects to repair houses, apartment blocks, and commercial buildings, to rebuild the damaged roads and other infrastructure, the new hospitals and clinics, the schools, and the attempts to rehabilitate the port even though it was unlikely to be used much with the blockade still on-going, all the new desalinization plants, the new restaurants, the new businesses that started up, and so much more.

However, you're right about some people not taking the opportunity to give peace a chance. One guy in particular wasn't interested in peace at all. Want to guess who that was?

Show

It was Prime Minister Ariel Sharon:

In an admission likely to fuel international criticism and suspicion of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, the Israeli leader’s senior adviser says that the Gaza disengagement plan represents an effort to “freeze” the peace process.

“The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process,” Dov Weisglass said in an interview with Ha’aretz scheduled to appear in the October 8 edition of the newspaper’s Friday magazine. “And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress.”

Lets us not forget this fine fellow who did his best to sabotage any peace efforts from the Hamas side.
As I have said many times nobody really took any effort to try to arrange a peace at the time of the Israeli withdrawal. There may have ben a tiny window available but no one wanted to climb through.

 

[Derec]

Most Gazans are kids and stay-at-home moms.

"Kids" is a broad term. Hamas and other terror groups routinely recruit minors as young as 14 or 15.

As far as moms, well there is this.
Mariam Farhat, Known as ‘Mother of Martyrs,’ Dies at 64

Mariam Farhat, a Palestinian lawmaker known as the “mother of martyrs” after three of her sons died in attacks against Israel, one of which was a suicide mission that she encouraged in a homemade video, died on Sunday in Gaza City. She was 64.
[...]
Ms. Farhat was elected to the Palestinian Legislative Council in 2006. Four years earlier, her 17-year-old son, Mohammad, was shot to death after he stormed an Israeli settlement with an automatic rifle and explosives, killing five students. Shortly before the attack, Ms. Farhat made a video in which she appeared with Mohammad to show support for what he was about to do.
“I wish I had 100 boys like Mohammad,” she once said. “I’d sacrifice them for the sake of God.”
Two more of Ms. Farhat’s sons, Nidal and Rawad, were later killed in clashes with Israel.

Two more sons, Wissam and Moamin, Hamas terrorists both, would later die during the current Gaza war.

“I brought them up to be martyrs,” she said in an interview with National Geographic Television several years ago, “to become martyrs for the name of Allah.”
Nidal Farhat helped make Hamas rockets that were used to bomb Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. When he died, he left behind a 4-year-old son, Imad. Ms. Farhat told The New York Times in 2004 that she had assured Imad that he would be reunited with his father.
“You will be a martyr one day,” Ms. Farhat said she had told Imad, “and then you will go and see your dad.”

That's the kind of transgenerational evil the IDF is up against.

 

[Arctish]

What I know is that the cycle of violence is so ingrained that there appears to be no way to stop it.

There is a way. It's the same way peace was achieved in every conflict that ended in peace. But it means no one gets everything they want, and that's a problem for racist bigots who think they can get more if they're brutal enough to take it.

Are you blaming just Israel with the term "racist bigots" or are you spreading your love more widely to include Hamas (and too many Gazans)?

Are you seriously asking me that question, or are you just pretending to not know the answer?

Since you are wont to blame Israel for nearly everything that happens in Gaza, West Bank, Lebanon etc. I was not sure whether you your term "racist bigots" applied to just Israel or more widely spread. Who are the "racist bigots" to which you refer?

I don’t blame Israel for things Israel hasn’t done. I blame Israel for what it has done, and I make a point of linking reputable sources that support the claim that Israel has done them.

I also name names. If I am criticizing a specific Israeli I say which one it is and why I’m criticizing him or her. I have posted links to Sharon and Netanyahu’s plans and eventual falling out over Gaza. If you didn’t learn anything about it, that’s on you.

And I don’t employ double standards. I judge the rightness or wrongness of actions based on how helpful or harmful they are to other people, how constructive or destructive, how cruel or compassionate, how fair or unfair, not based on who is doing them to whom or who stands to benefit the most.

The racists I talk about are the people who use ethnicity or racial identity to either favor or disfavor others, to give them special privileges ( a denial of equality) or deny them the same privileges enjoyed by others ( also a denial of equality). The religious bigots I talk about are those who use religious affiliation and beliefs the same way racists use race and ethnicity. And I’m 99% certain you already knew that.

So, now that I’m 100% certain you got the message I’m not going to pretend I think you’re some kind of newbie still trying to find your way in these discussions.

 

[Derec]

Yeah, but if they aren't continually and effectively resisting Hamas, they deserve all the death and destruction they receive!!!!!

No, only those who actively work for Hamas and other terror groups. They are also the ones responsible for the death and destruction Gazan civilians receive. Just like it was the Nazis, and not Allies, who were responsible for the death and destruction in Germany in the closing stages of WWII. Nazis started WWII, and Hamas and allied groups started the 2023-present Gaza War.

 

[laughing dog]

Yeah, but if they aren't continually and effectively resisting Hamas, they deserve all the death and destruction they receive!!!!!

No, only those who actively work for Hamas and other terror groups. They are also the ones responsible for the death and destruction Gazan civilians receive. Just like it was the Nazis, and not Allies, who were responsible for the death and destruction in Germany in the closing stages of WWII. Nazis started WWII, and Hamas and allied groups started the 2023-present Gaza War.

Yet, more than those actively responsible bear the brunt of the death and destruction and misery. And they get to see the self-righteous denial of reality justifications of their tragedy.

 

[Derec]

Historically the Allies in WWII were quite magnanimous in victory to Italy, Japan, and Germany..

To Germany, yes. Not to the Nazis. Big difference.

Nazis were not allowed to remain as an organized and armed paramilitary force inside Germany. I mean, can you imagine?
But that's exactly what Hamas is trying to do with their offer to remove themselves from the responsibility of civil government while maintaining their weapons and terror organization and infrastructure.

Tokyo was not a target for nuclear weapons in anticipation of a post war Japan.

Wasn't it because there wasn't that much left of it after a relentless campaign of aerial bombardment?
The nuclear bombing is sometimes attacked as highly immoral because it killed >100k with each of the two bombs. But what is ignored is that the war was already killing those numbers on a regular basis, just with a lot more bombs. And if the two nuclear bombs brought the war to an end even a month sooner, it saved both American and Japanese lives.

The Ja[manganese emporor was spared execution for the same reason.

Manganese emperor?

Tojo was hung.

Hanged. I have no information about whether he was hung - you'd have to ask his wife or any mistresses he might have had.

You might say Trump ordering the targeted killing of the Iranian leader un American, and politically stupid.

It's only stupid because it's a half-measure. It should have been a part of targeting of IRGC brass as well, from top echelons down to brigade and battalion level.
What to do with leaders once the enemy is defeated is the time to be magnanimous - not while the fight has barely begun.
In the case of the Emperor, it did not hurt that it was a largely ceremonial position. As you said, the leader who was actually responsible for the War was executed.

 

[Derec]

So, no concessions to any parties that want to invade land and steal resources rather than negotiate peacefully for mutual benefit.

You mean like the five Arab armies as soon as Israel was declared as a state?
And then afterwards, trying to destroy Israel and push Jews into the Sea.

Once Arab governments wised up, trying to destroy Israel became the métier of terrorist NGOs - first groups that formed the PLO, then later groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. After Iran fell to the theocrats, these groups enjoyed a lot of support form Tehran.

No concessions to racists and religious bigots who want to purge people of other ethnicities and faiths from their claimed areas.

There are a lot of Arabs living inside Israel. On the other hand ...
Abbas wants 'not a single Israeli' in future Palestinian state

No concessions to any political parties that have endorsed ethnic cleansing and genocide or looked the other way when kidnapping, murder, and crimes against humanity were being committed in the places they controlled.

You mean like Hamas and Islamic Jihad in October 2023?

 

[Derec]

I'm talking about the Jews.

Of course you are. Your swastika is showing.

 

[Arctish]

So, no concessions to any parties that want to invade land and steal resources rather than negotiate peacefully for mutual benefit.

You mean like the five Arab armies as soon as Israel was declared as a state?

I mean like Zionists murdering thousands and driving out hundreds of thousands of people so they could create an ethno-state with the intention that only Jews would be allowed entry and only Jews would be granted full rights of citizenship.

I mean like any government or quasi- state run by racists and bigots who will not tolerate people of different religions or ethnicities living alongside their preferred religious and racial community in the areas they control.

And then afterwards, trying to destroy Israel and push Jews into the Sea.

Of course they tried to destroy Israel. It was created by terrorism and run by terrorists. No one wants a terrorist state on their border.

Once Arab governments wised up, trying to destroy Israel became the métier of terrorist NGOs - first groups that formed the PLO, then later groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. After Iran fell to the theocrats, these groups enjoyed a lot of support form Tehran.

No concessions to racists and religious bigots who want to purge people of other ethnicities and faiths from their claimed areas.

There are a lot of Arabs living inside Israel. On the other hand ...
Abbas wants 'not a single Israeli' in future Palestinian state

The non-Jews who remained in what became Israel were the ones the Zionists hadn’t gotten around to expelling before the international community made them stop creating more refugees.

And as you surely know by now, settlers who choose to remain in the State of Palestine would be Palestinians, not Israelis.

I thought you were against illegal immigration and in favor of migrants becoming citizens of the country they moved into.

No concessions to any political parties that have endorsed ethnic cleansing and genocide or looked the other way when kidnapping, murder, and crimes against humanity were being committed in the places they controlled.

You mean like Hamas and Islamic Jihad in October 2023?

Yes.

Obviously.

You’re not ignorant and you’re not stupid. You know I have said that explicitly in multiple posts in this thread alone and multiple threads over the years. So what’s with the dumbass act?

 

[Arctish]

Hamas has attacked Israel many times with seemingly no-one within Gaza trying to stop them, as far as we know. If you have evidence of people within Gaza who tried to stop Hamas from attacking Israel at any time , not just Oct 2023, knowing that Israel would retaliate, then do let us know.

You made a claim about Gazans.

You said "They had opportunity to try to prevent Hamas from fully taking over and did not seem to take it."

If you have evidence of people within Gaza having an opportunity to prevent Hamas from fully taking over aside from the civil war that resulted in at least 161 deaths and more than 700 people wounded which I have already cited with links, then do let us know.

What opportunity are you talking about? And why are you ignoring the bloody battles literally fought in the streets of Gaza to prevent the Hamas takeover? Did you forget about that? Hamas took over in Gaza.

Have not forgotten about those battles.

If you haven't forgotten about them why did you say the Gazans "had opportunity to try to prevent Hamas from fully taking over and did not seem to take it."

Obviously they took it. You remember that they took it. And now you are saying they did not "seem to" take it.

What kind of Jedi mind tricks do you think you're pulling here?

I also note the huge numbers of deaths that have occurred on both sides since Hamas took over in Gaza.
The strange paradox is that if the PA had stayed in control of Gaza the death toll on both sides would probably be significantly lass than it is now.

I don't see it as a paradox. I see it as likely. It would not have solved the conflict between Israel and Gaza, though, so there most likely still would have been violence and protests.

I ran the numbers back in this post. You are using the results of an election in which Hamas got less than half of the votes to blame millions of people too young to have participated for their enclave being run by a terrorist organization that has all of the guns. And you're being particularly racist by casting their legitimate grievances as an insatiable desire for violence against your preferred racial/religious group.

If it were not Hamas then it would be Fatah or Islmaic Jihad or other of the assortment of anti-Jewish groups that proliferate in that area.
When Israel pulled out in 2005 both were given the opportunity to give peace a chance. They did not take it.

Who is "they"?

Israel, Hamas, Gazans. Anyone who had the opportunity to try to use the Israeli retreat to forge a new, better environment for both areas.

The people of Gaza and international investors did take the opportunity to forge a new, better environment.

Have you completely forgotten about the greenhouse project? Remember what happened to it?

Yes I remember.
American Jewish donors brought > 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for about $14 million dollars. Then had them transferred to the Palestinian Authority (PA)
On Tuesday 13th September 2005 looters from within the Gaza area took and /or destroyed much of the donated equipment.

Is that the greenhouse project to which you refer?

Yes, that's the project.

As you no doubt recall, I posted the same information you just did, with even more about destruction and looting prior to the greenhouses being refurbished and crops grown in them. Here's an excerpt from that article <link>:

According to the New York Times, two months prior to the withdrawal, in July of 2005, Israeli settlers demolished about half of the greenhouses, “creating significant doubts that the greenhouses could be handed over to the Palestinians as ‘a living business.’” There are other reports that rather than leave their greenhouses behind for the Palestinians some settlers decided to burn them to the ground.
Notwithstanding the destruction that had already been wrought, wealthy American philanthropists led by the Gates foundation and James Wolfensohn, the US Special Envoy for Gaza Disengagement, bought the remaining greenhouses from the Israeli settlers on behalf of the Palestinians in Gaza for $14 million. Wolfensohn contributed $500,000 of his own money.

Admittedly, Palestinian looters took to the greenhouses when they were transferred to Palestinian control in mid-September 2005, hauling away some of the irrigation pipes, water pumps, plastic sheeting and glass, but leaving the greenhouses themselves structurally intact.
Bassil Jabir was the CEO of the Palestine Economic Development Company (PED), the organization founded by the Palestinian Authority to take charge of the greenhouse project after it was turned over to the Palestinians. The PED invested more than $20 million into the project. Jabir said that as a result of the destruction by Israeli settlers and Palestinian looters the PED had to invest an additional $5 million into the greenhouse project to revive it.

Despite the initial setbacks, the greenhouses were up and running by mid-October. By late November, the New York Times reported that the Palestinians were preparing to harvest a crop of peppers, strawberries, tomatoes and herbs worth $20 million. Presciently, in the same article, Palestinians expressed concern that if Israel did not keep the Karni border crossing open, it could result in the demise of the greenhouse project.

And of course there was the project to rebuild the power plant. That was a big one. And then the power plant was hit again so there was another project to rebuild it.

And there were all the smaller projects to repair houses, apartment blocks, and commercial buildings, to rebuild the damaged roads and other infrastructure, the new hospitals and clinics, the schools, and the attempts to rehabilitate the port even though it was unlikely to be used much with the blockade still on-going, all the new desalinization plants, the new restaurants, the new businesses that started up, and so much more.

However, you're right about some people not taking the opportunity to give peace a chance. One guy in particular wasn't interested in peace at all. Want to guess who that was?

Show

It was Prime Minister Ariel Sharon:

In an admission likely to fuel international criticism and suspicion of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, the Israeli leader’s senior adviser says that the Gaza disengagement plan represents an effort to “freeze” the peace process.

“The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process,” Dov Weisglass said in an interview with Ha’aretz scheduled to appear in the October 8 edition of the newspaper’s Friday magazine. “And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress.”

Lets us not forget this fine fellow who did his best to sabotage any peace efforts from the Hamas side.

Thanks for the link.

As I have said many times nobody really took any effort to try to arrange a peace at the time of the Israeli withdrawal. There may have ben a tiny window available but no one wanted to climb through.

Any effort to try to arrange a peace at the time of the Israeli withdrawal that you know of or will acknowledge.

You know of the Arab Peace Initiative. You know that the PA signed on quickly and that Hamas had some heated internal debates over it before quietly agreeing to it with caveats.

You probably don't know about the The Secret Plan to Turn the Gaza Disengagement into a Coordinated Peace Effort. Not many people know about that one.

I really don't see how anyone could be unaware that the general public in Gaza was eager to seize the opportunity to have less hostile relations with Israel and more prosperity for themselves. Or surprised that they were bitterly disappointed when Israel tried to halt the peace process in its tracks and their prospects for a better life rotted along with the strawberries at the Karni Crossing.

 

[ZiprHead]

You made a claim about Gazans.

You said "They had opportunity to try to prevent Hamas from fully taking over and did not seem to take it."

If you have evidence of people within Gaza having an opportunity to prevent Hamas from fully taking over aside from the civil war that resulted in at least 161 deaths and more than 700 people wounded which I have already cited with links, then do let us know.

What opportunity are you talking about? And why are you ignoring the bloody battles literally fought in the streets of Gaza to prevent the Hamas takeover? Did you forget about that? Hamas took over in Gaza.

Have not forgotten about those battles.
I also note the huge numbers of deaths that have occurred on both sides since Hamas took over in Gaza.
The strange paradox is that if the PA had stayed in control of Gaza the death toll on both sides would probably be significantly lass than it is now.

Way to dodge the question, dude.

 

[ZiprHead]

I'm talking about the Jews.

Of course you are. Your swastika is showing.

Aawww, poor Derec. Lashing out when his own bullshit is thrown in his face. I'll get your binky for you.

 

[Tigers!]

As I have said many times nobody really took any effort to try to arrange a peace at the time of the Israeli withdrawal. There may have ben a tiny window available but no one wanted to climb through.

Any effort to try to arrange a peace at the time of the Israeli withdrawal that you know of or will acknowledge.

You know of the Arab Peace Initiative. You know that the PA signed on quickly and that Hamas had some heated internal debates over it before quietly agreeing to it with caveats.

You probably don't know about the The Secret Plan to Turn the Gaza Disengagement into a Coordinated Peace Effort. Not many people know about that one.

I really don't see how anyone could be unaware that the general public in Gaza was eager to seize the opportunity to have less hostile relations with Israel and more prosperity for themselves. Or surprised that they were bitterly disappointed when Israel tried to halt the peace process in its tracks and their prospects for a better life rotted along with the strawberries at the Karni Crossing.

The closing of the Karni Crossing was not the best way to help Gaza. It did make so much more difficult for the Gazans to export produce.
IIRC at that time suicide bombers/gunmen were attempting and/or entering Israel via that crossing. Israel needed to protect its people whilst letting Gaza export produce.
Option 1: Open the crossing, help Gaza and let in suicide bombers.
Option 2: Close the crossing, hurt Gaza but stop suicide bombers.
You must choose. Which option and why?

This is an example of what I meant by no one really grasping the possibility of peace. Hamas could have stopped those suicide bombers/gunmen using the crossing and Israel could have kept the crossing open.
Neither side was really willing to take a hold of the nettle. Result all suffered one way or another.

 

[Arctish]

As I have said many times nobody really took any effort to try to arrange a peace at the time of the Israeli withdrawal. There may have ben a tiny window available but no one wanted to climb through.

Any effort to try to arrange a peace at the time of the Israeli withdrawal that you know of or will acknowledge.

You know of the Arab Peace Initiative. You know that the PA signed on quickly and that Hamas had some heated internal debates over it before quietly agreeing to it with caveats.

You probably don't know about the The Secret Plan to Turn the Gaza Disengagement into a Coordinated Peace Effort. Not many people know about that one.

I really don't see how anyone could be unaware that the general public in Gaza was eager to seize the opportunity to have less hostile relations with Israel and more prosperity for themselves. Or surprised that they were bitterly disappointed when Israel tried to halt the peace process in its tracks and their prospects for a better life rotted along with the strawberries at the Karni Crossing.

The closing of the Karni Crossing was not the best way to help Gaza. It did make so much more difficult for the Gazans to export produce.

It made it impossible for Gaza to export produce and flowers, their only cash crops.

IIRC at that time suicide bombers/gunmen were attempting and/or entering Israel via that crossing. Israel needed to protect its people whilst letting Gaza export produce.
Option 1: Open the crossing, help Gaza and let in suicide bombers.
Option 2: Close the crossing, hurt Gaza but stop suicide bombers.
You must choose. Which option and why?

I choose the same option Israel chose when it was Jews exporting produce and flowers from Gaza.

Why?

1. Because it was effective in protecting Israel - not perfect, because nothing is perfect, but certainly good enough for those settlers to get their crops to market.

2. The ethnic and religious identity of the exporters is immaterial to the security of the importers. Anyone and anything crossing a border might be a security risk so all crossings should be handled the same way and with security in mind.

3. Israel signed an agreement backed by the international community that required it to keep the Karni Crossing open just as it had when Jews were doing the exporting. Violating the terms of the agreement made Israel look untrustworthy and destroyed a path to peace.

This is an example of what I meant by no one really grasping the possibility of peace. Hamas could have stopped those suicide bombers/gunmen using the crossing and Israel could have kept the crossing open.
Neither side was really willing to take a hold of the nettle. Result all suffered one way or another.

Hamas was a not in power at that time. The elections that gave it slightly more votes than Fatah happened after the closure of the Karni Crossing that ruined crops from those greenhouses. The civil war that made it the unchallenged ruling party happened a year after the election.

Israel under Ariel Sharon and his protege Benjamin Netanyahu chose the Path of Fuckery instead of the Path of Peace in Gaza. I think that was a bad choice.

And I think your “neither side” rhetoric is designed to shield your pro-Israel beliefs from legitimate criticism of Israeli politics and leaders. If you can “both sides” hard enough you can avoid the uncomfortable truths about Sharon not wanting Gaza to be secure and prosperous because he wanted it to become part of Israel after he was done grabbing the West Bank. Remember, this is the guy who was convicted in an Israeli court of having committed a war crime, and not the one he bragged about in his memoir.

No, not the one in the 1970s, either. The other other one.

 

[steve_bank]

After listening to Netanyahu make his latest threat to Iran he is someone who has devoted a taste for war and destruction.

It is who he is. An ancient Jewish warrior smitingg enemies.

 

[Tigers!]

As I have said many times nobody really took any effort to try to arrange a peace at the time of the Israeli withdrawal. There may have ben a tiny window available but no one wanted to climb through.

Any effort to try to arrange a peace at the time of the Israeli withdrawal that you know of or will acknowledge.

You know of the Arab Peace Initiative. You know that the PA signed on quickly and that Hamas had some heated internal debates over it before quietly agreeing to it with caveats.

You probably don't know about the The Secret Plan to Turn the Gaza Disengagement into a Coordinated Peace Effort. Not many people know about that one.

I really don't see how anyone could be unaware that the general public in Gaza was eager to seize the opportunity to have less hostile relations with Israel and more prosperity for themselves. Or surprised that they were bitterly disappointed when Israel tried to halt the peace process in its tracks and their prospects for a better life rotted along with the strawberries at the Karni Crossing.

The closing of the Karni Crossing was not the best way to help Gaza. It did make so much more difficult for the Gazans to export produce.

It made it impossible for Gaza to export produce and flowers, their only cash crops.

IIRC at that time suicide bombers/gunmen were attempting and/or entering Israel via that crossing. Israel needed to protect its people whilst letting Gaza export produce.
Option 1: Open the crossing, help Gaza and let in suicide bombers.
Option 2: Close the crossing, hurt Gaza but stop suicide bombers.
You must choose. Which option and why?

I choose the same option Israel chose when it was Jews exporting produce and flowers from Gaza.

Why?

1. Because it was effective in protecting Israel - not perfect, because nothing is perfect, but certainly good enough for those settlers to get their crops to market.

2. The ethnic and religious identity of the exporters is immaterial to the security of the importers. Anyone and anything crossing a border might be a security risk so all crossings should be handled the same way and with security in mind.

3. Israel signed an agreement backed by the international community that required it to keep the Karni Crossing open just as it had when Jews were doing the exporting. Violating the terms of the agreement made Israel look untrustworthy and destroyed a path to peace.

I agree that closing the crossing when they did (clarify which closing) was counter-productive and not a good look. More could have been done.

This is an example of what I meant by no one really grasping the possibility of peace. Hamas could have stopped those suicide bombers/gunmen using the crossing and Israel could have kept the crossing open.
Neither side was really willing to take a hold of the nettle. Result all suffered one way or another.

Hamas was a not in power at that time. The elections that gave it slightly more votes than Fatah happened after the closure of the Karni Crossing that ruined crops from those greenhouses. The civil war that made it the unchallenged ruling party happened a year after the election.

Which closure of the Karni crossing are you referring too? The Karni Crossing had more openings and closing than the Straits of Hormuz.

Israel under Ariel Sharon and his protege Benjamin Netanyahu chose the Path of Fuckery instead of the Path of Peace in Gaza. I think that was a bad choice.

And I think your “neither side” rhetoric is designed to shield your pro-Israel beliefs from legitimate criticism of Israeli politics and leaders. If you can “both sides” hard enough you can avoid the uncomfortable truths about Sharon not wanting Gaza to be secure and prosperous because he wanted it to become part of Israel after he was done grabbing the West Bank. Remember, this is the guy who was convicted in an Israeli court of having committed a war crime, and not the one he bragged about in his memoir.

And I think that your "Is always Israel's fault" rhetoric is designed to shield your pro-Hamas beliefs from legitimate criticism of Palestinian/ Iranian etc. politics and leaders. If you can "only Israel's fault" hard enough you can avoid the uncomfortable truths about Hamas/Iran wanting to destroy Israel and Jews to create a greater, "Judenfrei" Palestine.
I am well aware of what Sharon/Netanyahu have done or being convicted of. That is a part of want is happening but not the complete story.

It is possible to read your posts and be almost unaware of Hamas' existence until Oct. 2023 when it could no longer be hidden.