Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[steve_bank]

For Hamas it is a job, they are funded by Iran and maybe ohers. If the Hamas leaders give up power they have to get a day jobs..

From reporting inside Israel Palestinians have been dehumanized. Israel has long had a well funded PAC in the USA influencing politicians and media.

For decades the popular narrative was all Palestinians are terrorists. A successful Israelii propaganda campaign.

Back in the 70s I attended a presentation on campus by an Israeli looking for students to summer on an Israeli kibbutz. Netanyahu et al orchestrate 'holy land' tours for Christian politicians. Netanyahu played them like a fiddle.

 

[Derec]

There is a way. It's the same way peace was achieved in every conflict that ended in peace. But it means no one gets everything they want, and that's a problem for racist bigots who think they can get more if they're brutal enough to take it.

WWII was not ended by giving concessions to the Nazis. And neither was it "racist" or "bigoted" not to want to give concessions to the Nazis.

 

[steve_bank]

Historically the Allies in WWII were quite magnanimous in victory to Italy, Japan, and Germany..

Russia was not an ally and brutalized the Germans.

Tokyo was not a target for nuclear weapons in anticipation of a post war Japan. The Ja[manganese emporor was spared execution for the same reason. Tojo was hung.

AI Overview
The Allied powers—led by the United States and General Douglas MacArthur—spared Emperor Hirohito from war crime trials after World War II to ensure a peaceful, stable occupation of Japan, prevent mass civil uprisings, and smoothly transition the country into a democratic ally.

You might say Trump ordering the targeted killing of the Iranian leader un American, and politically stupid.

Trump and Hegseth are filled with vengeance..

 

[Arctish]

There is a way. It's the same way peace was achieved in every conflict that ended in peace. But it means no one gets everything they want, and that's a problem for racist bigots who think they can get more if they're brutal enough to take it.

WWII was not ended by giving concessions to the Nazis. And neither was it "racist" or "bigoted" not to want to give concessions to the Nazis.

So, no concessions to any parties that want to invade land and steal resources rather than negotiate peacefully for mutual benefit. No concessions to racists and religious bigots who want to purge people of other ethnicities and faiths from their claimed areas. No concessions to any political parties that have endorsed ethnic cleansing and genocide or looked the other way when kidnapping, murder, and crimes against humanity were being committed in the places they controlled.

I'm sure we can all agree to that.

 

[ZiprHead]

This is what always happens when you let just anyone in to your country. They do not assimilate to the culture. They cause trouble and sometimes commit terrorism. They steal land and take what they want without compensation.

I'm talking about the Jews.

 

[steve_bank]

This is what always happens when you let just anyone in to your country. They do not assimilate to the culture. They cause trouble and sometimes commit terrorism. They steal land and take what they want without compensation.

I'm talking about the Jews.

Cumming from Trump-MAGA that would be considered racist by the other side. I consider it racist regardless of Neo Nazis or Jews.or anyone.

 

[ZiprHead]

This is what always happens when you let just anyone in to your country. They do not assimilate to the culture. They cause trouble and sometimes commit terrorism. They steal land and take what they want without compensation.

I'm talking about the Jews.

Cumming from Trump-MAGA that would be considered racist by the other side. I consider it racist regardless of Neo Nazis or Jews.or anyone.

Just reflecting on a certain other poster's views on Muslims.

Do you think the comparison is not appropriate?

 

[Tigers!]

That's the one.

That one came after Hamas invaded into Israel and captured a soldier.

In hindsight, Israel should not have released >1000 terrorists (including Yahya Sinwar) in exchange for Shalit.

Yes, a criminal terrorist organization kidnapped a soldier. Israel retaliated by destroying the power plant that supplied electricity to millions of people, a blatant example of collective punishment and utterly illegal under the Geneva Conventions.

Israel doesn't even have the excuse of claiming it was responding to an attack committed by an enemy State's government. Hamas didn't battle Fatah and take over Gaza until the following year, no doubt emboldened by the widespread resentment Israel's actions generated as millions of uninvolved people were forced to scramble to keep their food from spoiling, their businesses open, their hospitals operational, and their kids in school.

The Gazans are not entirely blameless. They had opportunity to try to prevent Hamas from fully taking over and did not seem to take it.

You mean rising up en masse and participating in the civil war between Hamas and Fatah?

How many politically unaffiliated Gazans do you think had weapons and access to bullets? How were they supposed to prevent Hamas from fully taking over? You're talking about a population living on the edge of malnutrition that couldn't get their goods to markets, couldn't get to their own fishing grounds, could barely get enough electricity to keep their bare-bones economy functioning, had barely enough potable water to meet minimum daily requirements, etc.

How were the Gazans supposed to prevent Hamas from taking over?

And why would they bother when Israel was going to kick the shit out of them either way?

Israel was their biggest problem.

The biggest problem (for the Gazans) is their seemingly insatiable desire to attack Jews.

I have no idea what media outlet led you to believe that Gazans have a "seemingly insatiable desire to attack Jews", but I suspect it is a place that caters to racists and religious bigots.

What evidence have you seen that led you to believe that nonsense? Are you just going by feelings here? Do you "feel" that Gazans have an insatiable desire to attack Jews, as opposed to them having an unmet desire to be left alone by IDF soldiers who have imprisoned them and by the rightwing Zionist politicians who want to drive them out of their homeland?

Hamas has attacked Israel many times with seemingly no-one within Gaza trying to stop them, as far as we know. If you have evidence of people within Gaza who tried to stop Hamas from attacking Israel at any time , not just Oct 2023, knowing that Israel would retaliate, then do let us know.

I ran the numbers back in this post. You are using the results of an election in which Hamas got less than half of the votes to blame millions of people too young to have participated for their enclave being run by a terrorist organization that has all of the guns. And you're being particularly racist by casting their legitimate grievances as an insatiable desire for violence against your preferred racial/religious group.

If it were not Hamas then it would be Fatah or Islmaic Jihad or other of the assortment of anti-Jewish groups that proliferate in that area.
When Israel pulled out in 2005 both were given the opportunity to give peace a chance. They did not take it.

Who is "they"?

Israel, Hamas, Gazans. Anyone who had the opportunity to try to use the Israeli retreat to forge a new, better environment for both areas.

The people working to rebuild Gaza? Or the people who imposed an economic blockade, making that impossible?

The people who backed the Arab Peace Initiative? Or the people who rejected it?

Neither side truly wants to live in peace with the other. They are so caught up in the votex of violence that neither misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace.

Israel wrecked their economy, blew up their power plant, kept them hungry, destroyed their infrastructure and their schools, and with Netanyahu leading the government was going to crush and re-colonize them no matter who was nominally in charge.

Whilst there have been no elections since 2006 and polling as we understand it does not exist the Gazans as a whole seem to accept what Hamas is doing/has done. They are reaping what Hamas has sown.
Now some Gazans are rising up against Hamas but it took outside intervention to make it possible.
It was noted by the Israeli captives that not a single Gazan helped them or showed any compassion to them.

Not entirely true.

Some hostages were psychically abused. All suffered psychologically. Some were fed and housed as well as the Gazans around them, especially the elderly and children who were released early on.

You make it sound like Hamas was being magnamonous in letting those hostages go.

Hamas was being pragmatic. So was Israel when it released hundreds of people held in administrative detention.

You made a sweeping statement about no one in Gaza showing the hostages any compassion at all. Did you think the hostages were housed with ordinary citizens? Did you think everyone in Gaza is just like everyone else, so you can take the experiences of people held captive by terrorist assholes as evidence that every man, woman, and child in Gaza is a terrorist asshole? That's absurd.

All of them were kept in buildings controlled by Hamas and guarded by Hamas members. As conditions in Gaza deteriorated, the conditions under which the remaining hostages were kept got worse and they suffered more.

The hostages did not need to be there. They did not choose their circumstances.

Obviously.

What I know is that the cycle of violence is so ingrained that there appears to be no way to stop it.

There is a way. It's the same way peace was achieved in every conflict that ended in peace. But it means no one gets everything they want, and that's a problem for racist bigots who think they can get more if they're brutal enough to take it.

Are you blaming just Israel with the term "racist bigots" or are you spreading your love more widely to include Hamas (and too many Gazans)?

 

[Tigers!]

Not just journalists. Hamas' own death notices confirm that many health workers are also moonlighting as terrorists. Or are terrorists moonlighting as healthcare workers?

Gaza death notices show some so-called health workers were operating for terror groups

I read the article. The “many” is an exaggeration. As is “moonlighting as terrorists”.

Employment by Hamas does not make one a terrorist. Engaging in terrorism makes one a terrorist.

Yet working for Hamas does mean you are contributing to their work (sic). If an attack is done you as am employee has helped contribute to that attack. Not delibrately but nonetheless you helped.

Hamas was the Gazan gov’t. A postal worker or clerk or nurse who do their jobs and only their jobs are not contributing to the attack.

Using your logic, a USPS mail sorter in Oklahoma during the Vietnam war contributed to the Mi Lai massacre. Sorry, I don’t buy it.

If you were employed by Hamas you were working for an employer that exists only to kill Jews. They cannot claim they did not know that.

Hamas was the gov’t and a major employer. What any Gazan knew and what their options were to earn enough to support their household are two completely different motivations.

I agree they are in a dilemma but actions/choices have consequences.

Should you or I or the bloke over there work for a Nazi-like organisation?

I am retired, so no. I cannot say what your options are,

Your not answering the question is noted.

 

[Tigers!]

But would you absolve the 1930s Germans of their failure to act? They could not claim ignorance. Ignorance of the final total perhaps but not ignorances of what the Nazis wished to do. Are they guilty of sleep walking into war and genocide? Or active participants?

I don’t believe in collective guilt.

Was Germany/Germans/ Emperor/Japanese guilty of what happened in WW2 or was it just the top 500-1000 in their hierarchy?

Could Hamas could have built all of those tunnels, launched all of those rockets, launched all of those cross border raids etc. if they did not have the support (sometimes reluctantly?) of a majority of the Gazan population? They needed workers, places to hide and so many people willing to look the other way or say or do nothing. That tells me that the Gazans accept enough of what Hamas was doing, is doing and will keep on doing.

Yes, they could have done without the support of half the population.

Neither you nor I have a clue what “the Gazans” accept or not.

If the attacks on Israel continued for years with seemingly no internal resistance from within Gaza that does give us an indication of what many Gazans feel (not all).

 

[Tigers!]

Is there any evidence of missile launching platforms on the top of a hospital?

Not rooftop, but hospital grounds.
IDF releases footage of Hamas firing RPG from Gaza City hospital

I have seen reports of rockets being fired from the vicinity of hospitals and a report of one falling short of its target and hitting a hospital parking lot, but the reports that Hamas built missile launching pads on top of hospitals and the IDF allowed it, or at the very least failed to notice it, seems ludicrous.

Are you imagining that these rocket launchers are some kind of permanent setup? No, they are very simple and can be set up and dismantled quickly.
Y

That second one looks a bit more substantial, yes. But notice that it was set up where children are playing.

You forget that Hamas was there first and those children foolishly entered that area and Hamas was powerless to remove the children from any danger.

 

[laughing dog]

Not just journalists. Hamas' own death notices confirm that many health workers are also moonlighting as terrorists. Or are terrorists moonlighting as healthcare workers?

Gaza death notices show some so-called health workers were operating for terror groups

I read the article. The “many” is an exaggeration. As is “moonlighting as terrorists”.

Employment by Hamas does not make one a terrorist. Engaging in terrorism makes one a terrorist.

Yet working for Hamas does mean you are contributing to their work (sic). If an attack is done you as am employee has helped contribute to that attack. Not delibrately but nonetheless you helped.

Hamas was the Gazan gov’t. A postal worker or clerk or nurse who do their jobs and only their jobs are not contributing to the attack.

Using your logic, a USPS mail sorter in Oklahoma during the Vietnam war contributed to the Mi Lai massacre. Sorry, I don’t buy it.

If you were employed by Hamas you were working for an employer that exists only to kill Jews. They cannot claim they did not know that.

Hamas was the gov’t and a major employer. What any Gazan knew and what their options were to earn enough to support their household are two completely different motivations.

I agree they are in a dilemma but actions/choices have consequences.

Are Israeli postal workers contributing the crimes of Israeli settlers under IDF protection in the West Bank ?

Should you or I or the bloke over there work for a Nazi-like organisation?

I am retired, so no. I cannot say what your options are,

Your not answering the question is noted.

I did answer your question as asked.

 

[laughing dog]

If the attacks on Israel continued for years with seemingly no internal resistance from within Gaza that does give us an indication of what many Gazans feel (not all).

Depending by what you mean by “many” that could be true or it could be false.

 

[Tigers!]

Not just journalists. Hamas' own death notices confirm that many health workers are also moonlighting as terrorists. Or are terrorists moonlighting as healthcare workers?

Gaza death notices show some so-called health workers were operating for terror groups

I read the article. The “many” is an exaggeration. As is “moonlighting as terrorists”.

Employment by Hamas does not make one a terrorist. Engaging in terrorism makes one a terrorist.

Yet working for Hamas does mean you are contributing to their work (sic). If an attack is done you as am employee has helped contribute to that attack. Not delibrately but nonetheless you helped.

Hamas was the Gazan gov’t. A postal worker or clerk or nurse who do their jobs and only their jobs are not contributing to the attack.

Using your logic, a USPS mail sorter in Oklahoma during the Vietnam war contributed to the Mi Lai massacre. Sorry, I don’t buy it.

If you were employed by Hamas you were working for an employer that exists only to kill Jews. They cannot claim they did not know that.

Hamas was the gov’t and a major employer. What any Gazan knew and what their options were to earn enough to support their household are two completely different motivations.

I agree they are in a dilemma but actions/choices have consequences.

Are Israeli postal workers contributing the crimes of Israeli settlers under IDF protection in the West Bank ?

Very indirectly yes. They will handle mail that goes to & from settlers. They must answer to their consciences.

Should you or I or the bloke over there work for a Nazi-like organisation?

I am retired, so no. I cannot say what your options are,

Your not answering the question is noted.

I did answer your question as asked.

The question I was asked was "Should you or I ... work for a Nazi-like organisation?
Saying you are retired is a dodge, not an answer.
I will say that I could not work for a Nazi-like organisation.

 

[laughing dog]

Not just journalists. Hamas' own death notices confirm that many health workers are also moonlighting as terrorists. Or are terrorists moonlighting as healthcare workers?

Gaza death notices show some so-called health workers were operating for terror groups

I read the article. The “many” is an exaggeration. As is “moonlighting as terrorists”.

Employment by Hamas does not make one a terrorist. Engaging in terrorism makes one a terrorist.

Yet working for Hamas does mean you are contributing to their work (sic). If an attack is done you as am employee has helped contribute to that attack. Not delibrately but nonetheless you helped.

Hamas was the Gazan gov’t. A postal worker or clerk or nurse who do their jobs and only their jobs are not contributing to the attack.

Using your logic, a USPS mail sorter in Oklahoma during the Vietnam war contributed to the Mi Lai massacre. Sorry, I don’t buy it.

If you were employed by Hamas you were working for an employer that exists only to kill Jews. They cannot claim they did not know that.

Hamas was the gov’t and a major employer. What any Gazan knew and what their options were to earn enough to support their household are two completely different motivations.

I agree they are in a dilemma but actions/choices have consequences.

Are Israeli postal workers contributing the crimes of Israeli settlers under IDF protection in the West Bank ?

Very indirectly yes. They will handle mail that goes to & from settlers. They must answer to their consciences.

At least you are consistent. I don’t subscribe to your view.

The question I was asked was "Should you or I ... work for a Nazi-like organisation?
Saying you are retired is a dodge, not an answer.

No, i am retired and in no need of work. That is not a dodge. - it is the truth.

I will say that I could not work for a Nazi-like organisation.

Even if it meant being able to feed your family because nothing else was available?

 

[Arctish]

The Gazans are not entirely blameless. They had opportunity to try to prevent Hamas from fully taking over and did not seem to take it.

You mean rising up en masse and participating in the civil war between Hamas and Fatah?

How many politically unaffiliated Gazans do you think had weapons and access to bullets? How were they supposed to prevent Hamas from fully taking over? You're talking about a population living on the edge of malnutrition that couldn't get their goods to markets, couldn't get to their own fishing grounds, could barely get enough electricity to keep their bare-bones economy functioning, had barely enough potable water to meet minimum daily requirements, etc.

How were the Gazans supposed to prevent Hamas from taking over?

And why would they bother when Israel was going to kick the shit out of them either way?

Israel was their biggest problem.

The biggest problem (for the Gazans) is their seemingly insatiable desire to attack Jews.

I have no idea what media outlet led you to believe that Gazans have a "seemingly insatiable desire to attack Jews", but I suspect it is a place that caters to racists and religious bigots.

What evidence have you seen that led you to believe that nonsense? Are you just going by feelings here? Do you "feel" that Gazans have an insatiable desire to attack Jews, as opposed to them having an unmet desire to be left alone by IDF soldiers who have imprisoned them and by the rightwing Zionist politicians who want to drive them out of their homeland?

Hamas has attacked Israel many times with seemingly no-one within Gaza trying to stop them, as far as we know. If you have evidence of people within Gaza who tried to stop Hamas from attacking Israel at any time , not just Oct 2023, knowing that Israel would retaliate, then do let us know.

You made a claim about Gazans.

You said "They had opportunity to try to prevent Hamas from fully taking over and did not seem to take it."

If you have evidence of people within Gaza having an opportunity to prevent Hamas from fully taking over aside from the civil war that resulted in at least 161 deaths and more than 700 people wounded which I have already cited with links, then do let us know.

What opportunity are you talking about? And why are you ignoring the bloody battles literally fought in the streets of Gaza to prevent the Hamas takeover? Did you forget about that?

I ran the numbers back in this post. You are using the results of an election in which Hamas got less than half of the votes to blame millions of people too young to have participated for their enclave being run by a terrorist organization that has all of the guns. And you're being particularly racist by casting their legitimate grievances as an insatiable desire for violence against your preferred racial/religious group.

If it were not Hamas then it would be Fatah or Islmaic Jihad or other of the assortment of anti-Jewish groups that proliferate in that area.
When Israel pulled out in 2005 both were given the opportunity to give peace a chance. They did not take it.

Who is "they"?

Israel, Hamas, Gazans. Anyone who had the opportunity to try to use the Israeli retreat to forge a new, better environment for both areas.

The people of Gaza and international investors did take the opportunity to forge a new, better environment.

Have you completely forgotten about the greenhouse project? Remember what happened to it?

And of course there was the project to rebuild the power plant. That was a big one. And then the power plant was hit again so there was another project to rebuild it.

And there were all the smaller projects to repair houses, apartment blocks, and commercial buildings, to rebuild the damaged roads and other infrastructure, the new hospitals and clinics, the schools, and the attempts to rehabilitate the port even though it was unlikely to be used much with the blockade still on-going, all the new desalinization plants, the new restaurants, the new businesses that started up, and so much more.

However, you're right about some people not taking the opportunity to give peace a chance. One guy in particular wasn't interested in peace at all. Want to guess who that was?

Show

It was Prime Minister Ariel Sharon:

In an admission likely to fuel international criticism and suspicion of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, the Israeli leader’s senior adviser says that the Gaza disengagement plan represents an effort to “freeze” the peace process.

“The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process,” Dov Weisglass said in an interview with Ha’aretz scheduled to appear in the October 8 edition of the newspaper’s Friday magazine. “And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress.”

What I know is that the cycle of violence is so ingrained that there appears to be no way to stop it.

There is a way. It's the same way peace was achieved in every conflict that ended in peace. But it means no one gets everything they want, and that's a problem for racist bigots who think they can get more if they're brutal enough to take it.

Are you blaming just Israel with the term "racist bigots" or are you spreading your love more widely to include Hamas (and too many Gazans)?

Are you seriously asking me that question, or are you just pretending to not know the answer?

 

[TomC]

If the attacks on Israel continued for years with seemingly no internal resistance from within Gaza that does give us an indication of what many Gazans feel (not all).

Depending by what you mean by “many” that could be true or it could be false.

How about we define "many" as enough Gazans support Hamas' mission for Gazans to build a ridiculously powerful military installations under the civilian infrastructure. To amass thousands and thousands of missiles and their launch pads. To buy bunches of weapons and train Gazans to use them.
All without complaining to the UN or anyone who could protect them from the results of the Gazan assault on their neighbors. And the use of Gazans as cannon fodder and human shields.
All of that is true and you know it.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

If the attacks on Israel continued for years with seemingly no internal resistance from within Gaza that does give us an indication of what many Gazans feel (not all).

Depending by what you mean by “many” that could be true or it could be false.

How about we define "many" as enough Gazans support Hamas' mission for Gazans to build a ridiculously powerful military installations under the civilian infrastructure. To amass thousands and thousands of missiles and their launch pads. To buy bunches of weapons and train Gazans to use them.
All without complaining to the UN or anyone who could protect them from the results of the Gazan assault on their neighbors. And the use of Gazans as cannon fodder and human shields.
All of that is true and you know it.
Tom

Try to look beyond your kneejerk bigotry and focus. No one disputes there are Gazans who support Hamas. The point here is the extent of that support. And perhaps trying to disentangle actual support from the apparent support is simply Hamas assassination avoidance.

 

[TomC]

If the attacks on Israel continued for years with seemingly no internal resistance from within Gaza that does give us an indication of what many Gazans feel (not all).

Depending by what you mean by “many” that could be true or it could be false.

How about we define "many" as enough Gazans support Hamas' mission for Gazans to build a ridiculously powerful military installations under the civilian infrastructure. To amass thousands and thousands of missiles and their launch pads. To buy bunches of weapons and train Gazans to use them.
All without complaining to the UN or anyone who could protect them from the results of the Gazan assault on their neighbors. And the use of Gazans as cannon fodder and human shields.
All of that is true and you know it.
Tom

Try to look beyond your kneejerk bigotry and focus. No one disputes there are Gazans who support Hamas. The point here is the extent of that support. And perhaps trying to disentangle actual support from the apparent support is simply Hamas assassination avoidance.

What makes you think that any significant numbers of Gazans oppose the goals and methods of Hamas and their ilk?
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

If the attacks on Israel continued for years with seemingly no internal resistance from within Gaza that does give us an indication of what many Gazans feel (not all).

Depending by what you mean by “many” that could be true or it could be false.

How about we define "many" as enough Gazans support Hamas' mission for Gazans to build a ridiculously powerful military installations under the civilian infrastructure. To amass thousands and thousands of missiles and their launch pads. To buy bunches of weapons and train Gazans to use them.
All without complaining to the UN or anyone who could protect them from the results of the Gazan assault on their neighbors. And the use of Gazans as cannon fodder and human shields.
All of that is true and you know it.
Tom

Try to look beyond your kneejerk bigotry and focus. No one disputes there are Gazans who support Hamas. The point here is the extent of that support. And perhaps trying to disentangle actual support from the apparent support is simply Hamas assassination avoidance.

What makes you think that any significant numbers of Gazans oppose the goals and methods of Hamas and their ilk?
Tom

Let's see. They did not flock en masse to Hamas's assistance during the war. I;ve seen little evidence they are supporting Hamas now.

My guess is that most Gazans just wish to be left alone and have as comfortable a life as possible. Just like most Israelis or anyone else.