Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[bilby]

Your "right thing" is to accept ethnic cleansing.

No, it's not.

And you saying it doesn't make it so.

 

[laughing dog]

Your "right thing" is to accept ethnic cleansing.

No, it's not.

And you saying it doesn't make it so.

LP accepts ethnic cleansing, so he thinks everything does.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are presenting false dichotomies and an unreasonable amount of skepticism about other choices, shifting the burden after an assumed this-is-the-only-path apology. Even if that extremist politician had his way and they ended up nuking Gaza, you'd still be supporting the decision saying, "well, show me what else they could have done!"

Your side keeps blaming Israel but so far I haven't seen anything proposed that wouldn't be worse.

You cannot accept that there can be less Gazan civilian deaths and less violence directed at Gaza by a currently very extreme right-wing faction that took control of the Israeli government. There cannot exist anything in a spectrum between what they are currently doing and nothing at all that would somehow be more moral and practical in your view. That is an unrealistic, apologetic view that the right-wing faction that took control of Israel is perfect.

Do nothing would result in an even more extreme faction coming to power. Israel is a democracy, a government that won't protect it's people will be replaced with one that will.

Saying there is a better option doesn't make it so.

On the flip side, there is no one in the thread who has taken the view that whatever Hamas has done is perfect or their only moral and practical choice. Everyone here thinks what happened to Israelis was terrible perpetrated by evil thoughts and actions.

Yes, but condemnation is not condemnation.

When you ask, "...what is your proposal? What would you do?" I am reminded of a joke about a guy visiting the doctor's office.

Patient: "Doctor, every time I drop this 50 lb weight on my foot, it hurts my foot for a whole week. And I am limping around."
Doctor: "Well, stop dropping the weight on your foot."
Patient: "Tell me what I should do instead!"

You are not the patient in this analogy. You are not the doctor either. You're the patient's friend. You believe you are giving your friend 100% support by telling him he is 100% right 100% of the time, morally, practically, and logically. BUT you are doing more harm to your friend than helping him.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

(You're saying it's Israel's actions that cause it--upthread I've already shown that Hamas says it's Israel's very existence that is the cause.)

The citizens of Israel have diverse religious and ideological views, even if some are considered "right" and some "left" or some "reform" and some "orthodox" or some "settlers" or whatever else. Outside Israel, there are even anti-Zionist Jews. That's how diverse opinions are. In Israel, there is a right-wing faction in charge now, but others have different opinions and the direction was clearly different before this faction took control. It is ignorance and apologetics to imagine a world where whatever the extremist right-wing govt does is the only path and that if a different group or party were in charge, they'd be handling the situation in exactly the same way or doing so less effectively and less morally.

But there is no longer a meaningful peace movement in Israel. Any but the most dimwitted have seen that any attempt at peace makes things worse.

Even if far too many Gazan civilians have been killed, I am hoping that the IDF gets into the tunnels to combat Hamas directly and can actually rescue the hostages. Hamas is already claiming that 60 hostages have gone missing due to Israeli airstrikes which is a foreshadowing of my earlier expressed concern before the ground invasion began. Being far too aggressive and far too careless may not only endanger the lives of more Gazan civilians, but also Israeli hostages.

You can go join Laughing Dog in the land of insane plans.

The only way Israel is getting back any number of hostages is by making Hamas cry uncle.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Cowardly WaPo removed a very accurate cartoon about Hamas use of human shields.

View attachment 44649

Washington Post deletes editorial cartoon criticized as racist
For shame! There is nothing "racist" about the cartoon. WaPo caving to pro-Hamas voices is very spineless.

How is that remotely racist?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

First, act like sane responsible adults instead vengeful genocidal maniacs to reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators, and work to free/ rescue the hostages. Second, start gathering the intelligence and making plans to either seize or assassinate the perpetrators and free/ rescue the hostages .Third, carry out the plans. Yes, it would take time and be less viscerally satisfying to the racists, and revenge seekers.

Dang that's pitifully naive.

It is how they an acted after the Munich murders.

When the perpetrators were in areas that Israeli agents could operate in.

Get out of your ivory tower!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

For shame! There is nothing "racist" about the cartoon. WaPo caving to pro-Hamas voices is very spineless.

No, especially not the ugly stereotypical caricature of Palestinians. How could anyone think that?

I once had a Jewish professor that I had worked with in graduate school. He took up a new job with the University of Salzburg and moved to Austria. He confided to me later that, on the first day of his job, the local newspaper ran a political cartoon depicting a Jew as a caricature with a big nose and exaggerated features typically used to depict Jews during WWII, in which he had served as a British airman. For some reason, that cartoon in a popular Austrian newspaper made him feel very uncomfortable.

Nothing about that picture suggests Palestinian to me other than the label and the depicted behavior.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, especially not the ugly stereotypical caricature of Palestinians. How could anyone think that?

All caricatures exaggerierte facial features. I see nothing "ugly stereotypical" here. It is no different than a caricature of any American or western European politician.
Your (and cowardly WaPo's) position here seems to be that one should not caricature Muslims, not even Hamas leaders. And that's just defeatism for wokeness' sake. It's like refusing cartoons of Mohammed because it upsets the Islamists.

And I simply see an Arab face there. Typical for the region. If the picture really were apparently racial why would the label even be needed?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is how they an acted after the Munich murders.

Going after terrorists who orchestrated the Munich massacre is not "genocidal". And since those people were protected where they lived, and bringing them to trial was not feasible, it is not even murder. It's righteous retribution.

I hope Mossad finds a way to do likewise with Ismail Hanniyeh and other Hamas leaders living high on the hog in places like Qatar or Lebanon, since neither country is likely to arrest and extradite them to face justice. Therefore, more direct forms of justice are necessary. Like a 9mm brain hemorrhage.

I don't think retribution is the right word. More like justice and deterrence. The Mossad hunting down the Munich terrorists would act as a considerable deterrent to any other group that would consider such an attack unless they are based in a secure location such as Gaza.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Actually the team that went after OBL was supposed to first try to capture and take him alive. They said he grabbed the AK that was next to him forcing them to use defensive fire. At least that was the story they told.

Taking him alive would have been a bad idea. How many hostage takings would be done to try to free him? I am in general opposed to the death penalty due to the error rate but there are some people that are simply too dangerous to keep alive.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You don't get it. If the current government doesn't defend the people the next election will bring a government that makes the current one look like moderates.

The current gov’t already failed to defend the people.

This action is revenge masquerading as “defense”.

No. This action is about smashing the systems they used to conduct the attack so they can't do it again.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And you still haven't addressed the original question: What should Israel have done?

First, act like sane responsible adults instead vengeful genocidal maniacs to reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators, and work to free/ rescue the hostages. Second, start gathering the intelligence and making plans to either seize or assassinate the perpetrators and free/ rescue the hostages .Third, carry out the plans. Yes, it would take time and be less viscerally satisfying to the racists, and revenge seekers.

And what were you smoking when you came up with this "plan"?

Reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators is babble.

Work to free the hostages? Hamas will want too much for them. Any deal Hamas would agree to would kill far more than are currently being held. Israel unfortunately has a track record of making big concessions for hostages, there won't be a sane price for their release.

Rescue the hostages? Have you forgotten where they are? The only way the IDF can do this is to invade--and a ground invasion would be far worse especially if the tunnels haven't been destroyed first. In case you're not aware of how this sort of thing works any building with defenders is removed. All paths are secured--but if the tunnels are still there any building could have a hidden tunnel, thus every building would be removed. Look at what's left of cities that Ukraine/Russia fought a ground battle in--Gaza would be a lot worse because of the tunnels.

Gathering intelligence? Sorry, they are limited in this regard by the lack of contact between the two countries.

Seize/assassinate the perpetrators? That's back to the invasion approach.

Until you have a sane plan don't criticize what the people who do know what they're doing come up with.

Right now the gov’t of Israel is working to free/rescue the hostages - something you disparage even though those people “ do know what they’re doing “ (according to you). Of course, their apparent strategy is to bomb the tunnels the hostages may be in.

If gathering intelligence is limited then how can the IDF know where tunnels or the hostages are?

The rest of your response appears to be driven by the assumption that the only other alternatives require an immediate massive invasion. Which is just stupid.

In conclusion, your criticisms have no basis in disinterested reasoning and contradict your IDF apologia.

Their strategy is to make Hamas cry uncle.

And you aren't addressing the flaws I pointed out.

And your "plan" would require invasion, just not immediate.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your "right thing" is to accept ethnic cleansing.

No, it's not.

And you saying it doesn't make it so.

You said the proper solution was for the Jews to leave. That's ethnic cleansing.

And you're trying to push a nuclear power against the wall. Why in the world would the Jews believe leaving would put them in a better place? The forces that wish to destroy them are global in reach.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your "right thing" is to accept ethnic cleansing.

No, it's not.

And you saying it doesn't make it so.

LP accepts ethnic cleansing, so he thinks everything does.

No. I don't want it in either direction.

 

[Copernicus]

No, especially not the ugly stereotypical caricature of Palestinians. How could anyone think that?

All caricatures exaggerierte facial features. I see nothing "ugly stereotypical" here. It is no different than a caricature of any American or western European politician.
Your (and cowardly WaPo's) position here seems to be that one should not caricature Muslims, not even Hamas leaders. And that's just defeatism for wokeness' sake. It's like refusing cartoons of Mohammed because it upsets the Islamists.

I did not expect you to see "ugly stereotypical" here. That's a matter of perception, and we all have our opinions about your myopia in such matters.

 

[bilby]

If ethnic cleansing is the answer

It's not. It never is. And that you are prepared to entertain the idea that it might be is utterly disgusting.

You are better than this. Try harder.

 

[bilby]

Your "right thing" is to accept ethnic cleansing.

No, it's not.

And you saying it doesn't make it so.

You said the proper solution was for the Jews to choose to leave if they can't manage to treat their neighbours as human beings.

FTFY

That's ethnic cleansing.

Nope.

And you're trying to push a nuclear power against the wall.

Who is Israel going to nuke? And how could it possibly improve their situation to do so?

Why in the world would the Jews believe leaving would put them in a better place?

Well, they don't appear entirely happy with the events of October 7th, so...

The forces that wish to destroy them are global in reach.

No, they're not. And haven't been since 1945.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You can go join Laughing Dog in the land of insane plans.

Even Blinken is admitting it now:

Secretary of State Antony Blinken on Friday gave one of his most direct condemnations of the civilian death toll in Gaza and said more needs to be done to “minimize harm to Palestinian civilians.”

Although Blinken commended Israel for its announcement of daily military pauses in areas of Northern Gaza and two evacuation corridors, he said that “there is more that can and should be done to minimize harm to Palestinian civilians.”

The top US diplomat has subtly shifted his messaging in the days since he departed the Middle East earlier this week to more directly voice condemnation of the civilian toll in Gaza and the US’ expectations for the Israeli government. However, he still has not condemned the Israeli government offensive and has continually voiced support for its right to defend itself.

“Far too many Palestinians have been killed. Far too many have suffered these past weeks,” Blinken said at a press availability in New Delhi at the end of a whirlwind trip that also included stops Israel, Jordan, the West Bank, Turkey, Iraq, Japan and South Korea.

“We want to do everything possible to prevent harm to them and to maximize the assistance that gets to them,” he said.

“To that end, we’ll be continuing to discuss with Israel the concrete steps to be taken to advance these objectives,” Blinken said, but declined to detail the specifics of those steps.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm not putting shit in anyone's mouth, I'm filling in the consequences of your arguments.

You said people in here weren't caring about the savage murders of Israeli civilians. That is putting shit in people's mouths.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If the current government doesn't defend the people

The current government didn't defend the people.

Now they have embarked on genocide in the hope that people will mistake their after-the-fact violence for some kind of defence of the people - as you just did.

I wouldn't call it "genocide". Israel made it clear for people to displace. Likely quite intentionally so Israel can take over the area. Right now, Israel's government is saying they'll do as they please in the future there regarding Israeli security, but with the area being reduced to rubble, the Palestinians lack the capital to rebuild. And no one wants to govern it. Which really only leaves Israel left to rebuild.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Netanyahu calls for "full disarmament" of Gaza.

On Thursday, Netanyahu told Fox News that “we don’t seek to conquer Gaza, we don’t seek to occupy Gaza, and we don’t seek to govern Gaza.” His remarks in a statement from his office, made during a meeting with leaders of Israel’s Gaza border communities, are an apparent shift from floated suggestions that Gaza could be supervised by an international coalition, rather than Israeli forces.

“After the elimination of Hamas,” the statement said, “there will be total Israeli security control over the Gaza Strip, including full demilitarization, to ensure that there is no longer a threat posed by Gaza to Israeli citizens.”

I don't see how Gaza can be disarmed without Israel occupying, conquering, governing Gaza.

No Hamas in Gaza would be great! Is that possible without Gaza having no Gazans? Netanyahu is talking very suspiciously, as the goals don't match what he is saying Israel wants.