Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[barbos]

Egypt does not need new citizens, they are already overpopulated. And Hamas=Muslim Brotherhood. Egypt does not need these guys at all.

 

[Copernicus]

No, especially not the ugly stereotypical caricature of Palestinians. How could anyone think that?

All caricatures exaggerierte facial features. I see nothing "ugly stereotypical" here. It is no different than a caricature of any American or western European politician.
Your (and cowardly WaPo's) position here seems to be that one should not caricature Muslims, not even Hamas leaders. And that's just defeatism for wokeness' sake. It's like refusing cartoons of Mohammed because it upsets the Islamists.

More has come out over the controversy surrounding the WAPO deletion of conservative cartoonist, Michael Ramirez's, political cartoon and whether it really ought to be considered racist. Here is an interview by Smerconish of CNN with Ramirez over the deletion of the cartoon:

Cartoonist discusses his cartoon about Hamas deleted by Washington Post

WAPO opinion editor, David Shipley, agreed with the perception that the cartoon had racist overtones, which he had missed earlier when he approved its publication. Smerconish's take was not so much about the cartoon being racist, but that it seemed to conflate Hamas with all Palestinians and Muslims generally, leaving the viewer with the sense that Ramirez was condoning or justifying Israel's war crimes. However, Ramirez did point out that the cartoon was intended to be a caricature of a specific individual--Hamas official, Ghazi Hamad (whose name Ramirez butchered, seeming to confuse it with the former Afghan president, Hamid Karzai).

Looking at Ramirez's depictions of other famous figures, I can see why he doesn't think it came off as racist, but an attack on the hypocrisy of Hamas in denying that their own use Palestinians as human shields was intentional. Nevertheless, Smerconish makes a pretty convincing case that the Ramirez cartoon did come off as Islamophobic at the very least, and Ramirez didn't seem to want to address that criticism. At first he changed the subject when asked about that. Then he basically pooh-poohed it. And the fact remains that his cartoon does not address the Israeli tendency to kill all of those cartoonish human shields tied to Ghazi Hamad's cartoon body. In that sense, it does succeed in generating the kind of reaction that political cartoons are intended to arouse--public discussion of the controversy surrounding a current event.

 

[Copernicus]

Egypt does not need new citizens, they are already overpopulated. And Hamas=Muslim Brotherhood. Egypt does not need these guys at all.

That's an extreme oversimplification of the problem. A large influx of immigrants is always difficult for a host country to integrate into its economy, but the Gaza Peninsula itself is not overpopulated at all and has plenty of room to accommodate two million Palestinians. Although the Muslim Brotherhood has helped Hamas, there are also tensions between it and other Muslim sponsors of Hamas. It would probably represent something of a rival to the Muslim Brotherhood, since Palestinians are not really Egyptian ultranationalists. In fact, by allowing Palestinians to settle in the Gaza Peninsula, Egypt would be perceived as bowing to pressure from Israel--not something that the Muslim Brotherhood would welcome.

 

[Rhea]

And the Palestinian people who don't want to be in Egypt any more could easily go elsewhere. Other Muslim countries. There're lots.

I feel like if you tried to say, “the Guatamalans don’t have to settle in Mexico, they could easily go elsewhere. Other Christian countries, there’s lots” like the USA, for example! I feel like we’d recognize that as an unsupported assertion.

 

[Arctish]

I want to know what the suggestion is for Palestinians who want to leave Gaza and go to the old family home in Ashkelon.

*ETA: Loren, I already know your suggestion is to nuke Gaza. I want to hear from other posters, especially the ones who think driving the Gazans into Egypt will solve anything.

 

[bilby]

Nuking Gaza wouldn't solve anything; It would just create more terrorism amongst the survivors and their families.

A really dirty Cobalt 60 bomb on Jerusalem, rendering the holy of holies and a large surrounding area lethally inaccessible to bloody everyone, of all faiths, for many generations, could potentially help, though evacuating everyone first would be very difficult to accomplish, and I wouldn't want to see anyone needlessly hurt.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If ethnic cleansing is the answer

It's not. It never is. And that you are prepared to entertain the idea that it might be is utterly disgusting.

You are better than this. Try harder.

You said the answer is for the Jews to leave. Ethnic cleansing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your "right thing" is to accept ethnic cleansing.

No, it's not.

And you saying it doesn't make it so.

You said the proper solution was for the Jews to choose to leave if they can't manage to treat their neighbours as human beings.

FTFY

You didn't fix it. Did you not notice the earlier post where a Hamas spokesman said the reason for the war is existence of Israel? It's not about Israel's actions.

That's ethnic cleansing.

Nope.

You're trying to walk back your answer.

And you're trying to push a nuclear power against the wall.

Who is Israel going to nuke? And how could it possibly improve their situation to do so?

If Tehran is turned into a parking lot will any other nation fund the terrorism?

Why in the world would the Jews believe leaving would put them in a better place?

Well, they don't appear entirely happy with the events of October 7th, so...

They're not entirely happy with the events in many places in the world. Israel is experiencing substantial immigration of Jews growing fearful where they live.

The forces that wish to destroy them are global in reach.

No, they're not. And haven't been since 1945.

Global, but not openly in power.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm not putting shit in anyone's mouth, I'm filling in the consequences of your arguments.

You said people in here weren't caring about the savage murders of Israeli civilians. That is putting shit in people's mouths.

I see people blaming Israel for what happened. Getting upset about the Palestinian deaths but not the Israeli ones.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Netanyahu calls for "full disarmament" of Gaza.

On Thursday, Netanyahu told Fox News that “we don’t seek to conquer Gaza, we don’t seek to occupy Gaza, and we don’t seek to govern Gaza.” His remarks in a statement from his office, made during a meeting with leaders of Israel’s Gaza border communities, are an apparent shift from floated suggestions that Gaza could be supervised by an international coalition, rather than Israeli forces.

“After the elimination of Hamas,” the statement said, “there will be total Israeli security control over the Gaza Strip, including full demilitarization, to ensure that there is no longer a threat posed by Gaza to Israeli citizens.”

I don't see how Gaza can be disarmed without Israel occupying, conquering, governing Gaza.

No Hamas in Gaza would be great! Is that possible without Gaza having no Gazans? Netanyahu is talking very suspiciously, as the goals don't match what he is saying Israel wants.

There's no way they'll get all of Hamas. However, they can destroy most of it's infrastructure and supplies and kill/capture most of it's local leaders (main HQ is elsewhere.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The ideal solution for Israel would be that those in the Gaza strip go live in the Gaza Peninsula under Egyptian rule, and those in the West Bank go live in Jordan, leaving Israel able to expand its land area into those areas.

I understand the official rationale is to prevent the influx of weaponry, but Israel's blockades also significantly limit outbound travel. If the so called solution involves Palestinians moving to different locations, it seems contradictory to then impede their ability to do so.

Israel hasn't objected to non-Hamas people leaving Gaza. It's just that both Egypt and the West Bank would prefer the Gazans die than enter their territory.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Egypt and Jordan don't want an influx of violent militants any more than Israel does. Like Israel, they can't distinguish between peaceable folks and Islamic fighters.

That's why Palestinians are trapped. Not because Israel is forcing them to stay or do anything in particular. It's the Palestinian leadership who keep them poor, desperate, and violent.
Tom

That--they have been weaponized by the terrorists but it's a rather indiscriminate weapon. Nobody wants them around.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And you still haven't addressed the original question: What should Israel have done?

First, act like sane responsible adults instead vengeful genocidal maniacs to reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators, and work to free/ rescue the hostages. Second, start gathering the intelligence and making plans to either seize or assassinate the perpetrators and free/ rescue the hostages .Third, carry out the plans. Yes, it would take time and be less viscerally satisfying to the racists, and revenge seekers.

And what were you smoking when you came up with this "plan"?

Reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators is babble.

Work to free the hostages? Hamas will want too much for them. Any deal Hamas would agree to would kill far more than are currently being held. Israel unfortunately has a track record of making big concessions for hostages, there won't be a sane price for their release.

Rescue the hostages? Have you forgotten where they are? The only way the IDF can do this is to invade--and a ground invasion would be far worse especially if the tunnels haven't been destroyed first. In case you're not aware of how this sort of thing works any building with defenders is removed. All paths are secured--but if the tunnels are still there any building could have a hidden tunnel, thus every building would be removed. Look at what's left of cities that Ukraine/Russia fought a ground battle in--Gaza would be a lot worse because of the tunnels.

Gathering intelligence? Sorry, they are limited in this regard by the lack of contact between the two countries.

Seize/assassinate the perpetrators? That's back to the invasion approach.

Until you have a sane plan don't criticize what the people who do know what they're doing come up with.

Right now the gov’t of Israel is working to free/rescue the hostages - something you disparage even though those people “ do know what they’re doing “ (according to you). Of course, their apparent strategy is to bomb the tunnels the hostages may be in.

If gathering intelligence is limited then how can the IDF know where tunnels or the hostages are?

The rest of your response appears to be driven by the assumption that the only other alternatives require an immediate massive invasion. Which is just stupid.

In conclusion, your criticisms have no basis in disinterested reasoning and contradict your IDF apologia.

Their strategy is to make Hamas cry uncle.

And you aren't addressing the flaws I pointed out.

And your "plan" would require invasion, just not immediate.

Wrong on all counts. The flakes are based on your assumptions. The plan only requires an invasion if one needs immediate results.

You're neglecting the fact that they only way Israel can operate in Gaza is with overwhelming force. They have no means of surgically taking out Hamas. When they went after the Munich terrorists they were in territory where so long as they were stealthy they wouldn't have a problem and the governments were not openly hostile to them. (I say "openly" because Israel resorted to assassination because extradition didn't work--the countries would either not pick them up or would forewarn them so they would leave before the cops showed up.) That's not how it is in Gaza.

 

[TomC]

And the Palestinian people who don't want to be in Egypt any more could easily go elsewhere. Other Muslim countries. There're lots.

I feel like if you tried to say, “the Guatamalans don’t have to settle in Mexico, they could easily go elsewhere. Other Christian countries, there’s lots” like the USA, for example! I feel like we’d recognize that as an unsupported assertion.

I'm the wrong person to try that apples and oranges comparison on. My idea of American immigration reform includes several million work visas. Latin American people don't want to stay in Mexico, despite the language and cultural similarities, because it isn't much better than Guatemala for poor homeless people.
However, Guatemalans don't have the track record of random missiles and suicide bombers Palestinians have. That is the big difference.
Tom

 

[Copernicus]

And the Palestinian people who don't want to be in Egypt any more could easily go elsewhere. Other Muslim countries. There're lots.

I feel like if you tried to say, “the Guatamalans don’t have to settle in Mexico, they could easily go elsewhere. Other Christian countries, there’s lots” like the USA, for example! I feel like we’d recognize that as an unsupported assertion.

I'm the wrong person to try that apples and oranges comparison on. My idea of American immigration reform includes several million work visas. Latin American people don't want to stay in Mexico, despite the language and cultural similarities, because it isn't much better than Guatemala for poor homeless people.
However, Guatemalans don't have the track record of random missiles and suicide bombers Palestinians have. That is the big difference.
Tom

Nor do they have the track record of all the homicides and suicides that we Americans do. However, put a Guatemalan or Palestinian family in the US, and it is just as likely to join with us in keeping those statistics high. We all know why. It doesn't have anything to do with being American, Palestinian, or Guatemalan. It's just living in the same environment and having access to the same opportunities and experiences. The vast majority of immigrants from those places will come to America for the same reasons that my Polish grandparents did--to enjoy a life where there are more opportunities to live a reasonably comfortable life without having to deal with the deteriorating conditions in their native homeland. The vast majority of Palestinians will feel no more desire to shoot off missiles or wear a suicide vest than you or I do. The differences are not as big as you think.

 

[laughing dog]

And you still haven't addressed the original question: What should Israel have done?

First, act like sane responsible adults instead vengeful genocidal maniacs to reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators, and work to free/ rescue the hostages. Second, start gathering the intelligence and making plans to either seize or assassinate the perpetrators and free/ rescue the hostages .Third, carry out the plans. Yes, it would take time and be less viscerally satisfying to the racists, and revenge seekers.

And what were you smoking when you came up with this "plan"?

Reassure the public that they would hunt down and bring to justice the perpetrators is babble.

Work to free the hostages? Hamas will want too much for them. Any deal Hamas would agree to would kill far more than are currently being held. Israel unfortunately has a track record of making big concessions for hostages, there won't be a sane price for their release.

Rescue the hostages? Have you forgotten where they are? The only way the IDF can do this is to invade--and a ground invasion would be far worse especially if the tunnels haven't been destroyed first. In case you're not aware of how this sort of thing works any building with defenders is removed. All paths are secured--but if the tunnels are still there any building could have a hidden tunnel, thus every building would be removed. Look at what's left of cities that Ukraine/Russia fought a ground battle in--Gaza would be a lot worse because of the tunnels.

Gathering intelligence? Sorry, they are limited in this regard by the lack of contact between the two countries.

Seize/assassinate the perpetrators? That's back to the invasion approach.

Until you have a sane plan don't criticize what the people who do know what they're doing come up with.

Right now the gov’t of Israel is working to free/rescue the hostages - something you disparage even though those people “ do know what they’re doing “ (according to you). Of course, their apparent strategy is to bomb the tunnels the hostages may be in.

If gathering intelligence is limited then how can the IDF know where tunnels or the hostages are?

The rest of your response appears to be driven by the assumption that the only other alternatives require an immediate massive invasion. Which is just stupid.

In conclusion, your criticisms have no basis in disinterested reasoning and contradict your IDF apologia.

Their strategy is to make Hamas cry uncle.

And you aren't addressing the flaws I pointed out.

And your "plan" would require invasion, just not immediate.

Wrong on all counts. The flakes are based on your assumptions. The plan only requires an invasion if one needs immediate results.

You're neglecting the fact that they only way Israel can operate in Gaza is with overwhelming force. They have no means of surgically taking out Hamas. When they went after the Munich terrorists they were in territory where so long as they were stealthy they wouldn't have a problem and the governments were not openly hostile to them. (I say "openly" because Israel resorted to assassination because extradition didn't work--the countries would either not pick them up or would forewarn them so they would leave before the cops showed up.) That's not how it is in Gaza.

All you are saying is that assassination attempts in person in Gaza are much harder. And, of, course there are drones.

 

[Arctish]

I want to know what the suggestion is for Palestinians who want to leave Gaza and go to the old family home in Ashkelon.

I'm quoting myself because I'd really like to hear what people think about making the results of ethnic cleansing permanent.

I think it's pretty fucking disgraceful.

I think the Israelis built this time bomb and did nothing while the countdown was ticking.

I think the only reasonably good way forward is to reward Fatah and the PA for choosing to pursue their goals through negotiation and the international courts rather than support terrorism. I think Israel should make substantial improvements in the lives of Palestinians in the West Bank starting with reining in the settlers, recognizing the rights of non-Jews to remain in place and participate in the government that has control of their economic prospects and standard of living, and by building nice, sustainable settlements for those who choose to live there rather than return to their former homes inside the 1967 Green Line.

Loren summed it up a few days ago:

You don't get it. If the current government doesn't defend the people the next election will bring a government that makes the current one look like moderates.

The Kingdom of Jordan failed to improve the lives of Palestinians facing terrorism, war, and ethnic cleansing in Palestine. The people eventually turned to the PLO.

The PLO failed to improve the lives of Palestinians. The people in Gaza eventually turned to Hamas while those in the West Bank supported the PLO's Fatah faction.

If there is no improvement for Palestinians from either the terrorism of Hamas or the diplomacy of Fatah, then the people will turn to other means and other forces. They won't just disappear no matter how much Zionists wish they would. The crimes against humanity they have suffered won't vanish if they go to Egypt.

It's up to Israel to make improvements in how it deals with people who don't worship their stupid god or share their Euro-centric chauvinism. If Israel doesn't, we can all expect worse if/when the people of Palestine bring in a government that makes the current one look like a bunch of moderates.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm not putting shit in anyone's mouth, I'm filling in the consequences of your arguments.

You said people in here weren't caring about the savage murders of Israeli civilians. That is putting shit in people's mouths.

I see people blaming Israel for what happened. Getting upset about the Palestinian deaths but not the Israeli ones.

You really need to reread all the posts you thought you read.

 

[laughing dog]

I see people blaming Israel for what happened. Getting upset about the Palestinian deaths but not the Israeli ones.

You really need to reread all the posts you thought you read.

I admire your optimism.

 

[barbos]

I want to know what the suggestion is for Palestinians who want to leave Gaza and go to the old family home in Ashkelon.

Tough luck.