Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

Palestine and extremism is a self-perpetuating dilemma propagated by Iran et al and worsened by far right Israeli policy.

I don't see how Israel's policies have any real effect. They simply provide a convenient way of blaming the Jews but Hamas has already admitted that the real reason is Israel exists. Infinity + 1 still equals infinity.

What some people seemingly are overlooking is that all of these far right Israeli policies on the Palestinians were put in place to protect Israelis. The policies don't exist just for the heck of it, or because the Israeli government hates the Palestinians. No, the policies are supposed to protect Israel.

The atrocity of October 7th happened anyway. Which should make some people stop and think whether doubling down on what didn't work is the path forward.

That's assuming that things wouldn't have been worse without those policies.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I understood your loaded questions perfectly. Given what I said, it was obvious that I had not just a democracy in mind, but one that ensured equal rights for all citizens under a rule of law. Once you started talking about a Sultan in Istanbul, it was obvious to me that you were more interested in trolling than an honest discussion. Democracies are not always about the protection of minority rights, so a government needs a constitution in which rights are guaranteed to all citizens, not just an ethnic minority. We know which minorities we are talking about in the case of Israel-Palestine. The US has its own protected minorities, as well.

And how do you propose to create a democracy that can't be subject to tyranny of the majority?

Are you not a citizen of the United States? Do you not know how the Constitution and due process work? The Constitution specifies the powers of government. If it does not give the government the power to take away a right, then the majority doesn't get to pass laws that remove that right.

I suggest you look at Project 2025.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A return to the status quo before October won't be enough. There has to be significant improvement in the situation for the Palestinians, otherwise the lid just goes back on the pressure cooker while the burner is still lit.

Iran is the one controlling the fire, not Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The civilian population of Gaza is complicit in the kidnapping. When a hostage managed to escape his captors, the civilians in Gaza caught him and delivered him back to Hamas terrorists.
Russian-Israeli hostage escaped from Hamas but was found and returned by Gazans, says aunt

And this aunt can tell the difference between civilians and Hamas ? Your link quotes her as saying “ the Gazans” which is ambiguous.

More importantly, even if her story is true, broadbrushing the entire civilian population of Gaza is illogical and bigoted.

Other reports say the hostage was handed over to Hamas.

Thus your attempt to play to ambiguities doesn't work.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Those infants' deaths are the direct cause of Hamas starting a war against Israel.

That seems unlikely, as causes are rarely preceeded by effects.

Look in the mirror.

Hamas acts, Israel reacts. We see it again and again.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Germany was bombed extensively, and yet militarily crushing the Nazi state was necessary in order to pacify and denazify Germany.

Was a complete military defeat necessary? Perhaps, but you cannot know that for a fact. Was strategic bombing necessary, or even helpful? Almost certainly not.

Had the resources wasted on bombing cities instead been used to bomb targets less populated with civillians, there's no doubt that this would have made the war easier to win. Had they been spent on other weapons systems entirely, even more so.

The problem with Gaza is the military targets are mixed in with the civilians.

Last I saw data it was less than one person killed (by Hamas' own numbers!) per bomb dropped. Obviously, Israel is mostly bombing things, not people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"Apartheid was put in place to protect South Africans." is ridiculous

It was an absolute and certain article of faith amongst white South Africans during apartheid.

Being ridiculous has rarely prevented a political policy from being enacted.

(Which is yet another way in which the analogy between Israeli policy towards Palestinans and apartheid is apt).

And look at what happened when that government fell.

 

[laughing dog]

The civilian population of Gaza is complicit in the kidnapping. When a hostage managed to escape his captors, the civilians in Gaza caught him and delivered him back to Hamas terrorists.
Russian-Israeli hostage escaped from Hamas but was found and returned by Gazans, says aunt

And this aunt can tell the difference between civilians and Hamas ? Your link quotes her as saying “ the Gazans” which is ambiguous.

More importantly, even if her story is true, broadbrushing the entire civilian population of Gaza is illogical and bigoted.

Other reports say the hostage was handed over to Hamas.

I underlined and bold-faced the part that your response does not address and makes your response simply irrelevant.

Thus your attempt to play to ambiguities doesn't work.

I made no claim about what happened. I expressed doubt that the mother of the hostage would know or be able to identify whether a Gazan was a civilian or a member of Hamas.

You are the one playing with the truth here, not me. Do you have a link to a report that does not rely on the mother's story and shows that those who handed the hostage back to Hamas were civilians not members of Hamas? If you do, show it. If you don't, please stop promoting unsubstantiated rumors that support your biases as fact.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Palestine and extremism is a self-perpetuating dilemma propagated by Iran et al and worsened by far right Israeli policy.

I don't see how Israel's policies have any real effect. They simply provide a convenient way of blaming the Jews but Hamas has already admitted that the real reason is Israel exists. Infinity + 1 still equals infinity.

The drive of Hamas exists. The Israeli policies help drive young men to kill themselves. There will always be hate, but extremism is much more than hate.

What some people seemingly are overlooking is that all of these far right Israeli policies on the Palestinians were put in place to protect Israelis. The policies don't exist just for the heck of it, or because the Israeli government hates the Palestinians. No, the policies are supposed to protect Israel.

The atrocity of October 7th happened anyway. Which should make some people stop and think whether doubling down on what didn't work is the path forward.

That's assuming that things wouldn't have been worse without those policies.

It makes no such assumption. It recognizes that the policies didn't prevent the slaughter. Could things have been worse. I suppose. Could things have been better? That is possible as well. The point is, people need to stop, humanize both sides, and redo the math.

 

[Gospel]

"Apartheid was put in place to protect South Africans." is ridiculous

It was an absolute and certain article of faith amongst white South Africans during apartheid.

Being ridiculous has rarely prevented a political policy from being enacted.

(Which is yet another way in which the analogy between Israeli policy towards Palestinans and apartheid is apt).

And look at what happened when that government fell.

From who's prospective do you want us to look?

AKA Whose perspective would you like us to consider?

 

[Derec]

The drive of Hamas exists. The Israeli policies help drive young men to kill themselves.

Wrong. Islamist ideology is driving young men to kill themselves, while killing others; if they were just killing themselves, that'd be acceptable.
Suicide bombings are hardly a tactic limited to Hamas or the Israel-Arab conflict. It is a widespread tactic in the Islamic world. And often it's one Islamic group targeting members of another, because they belong to the wrong "franchise" of Islam.
Suicide bombings at two mosques in Pakistan kill at least 57
Did Israeli policies drive those young men to blow themselves up?

There will always be hate, but extremism is much more than hate.

And Palestinian extremism against Israel has been there since Israel was founded. Before Hamas, there was PLO. Before them, there were Fedayeen attacking Israel especially from Gaza, while it was under Egyptian rule. Why do you think Egypt doesn't want anything to do with Gazans?

It makes no such assumption. It recognizes that the policies didn't prevent the slaughter. Could things have been worse. I suppose. Could things have been better? That is possible as well. The point is, people need to stop, humanize both sides, and redo the math.

Math is simple. No ceasefire is worth the paper it is written on while Hamas is in power. There was a ceasefire on 10/7, before Hamas broke it is the most brutal and bloodthirsty way. And they have already said they intend to repeat such attacks until Israel is destroyed.
Hamas official vows to repeat Israel attacks ‘again and again’ until it’s destroyed
Redoing the math must involve subtracting Hamas from the equation.

 

[Derec]

War news: IDF finds a major weapons cache.

IDF finds one of the largest Gaza weapons stockpiles ever near school, hospital

The IDF said that it had found one of the largest weapons stockpiles in the history of its operations in Gaza, an arsenal containing hundreds of missiles, launchers, long-range rockets, anti-tank missiles, UAVs, and explosives.
The massive weapons cache was located near a hospital and a school, the IDF reported.
[..]
The IDF stated that all of the ordnance was found in the vicinity of densely populated civilian areas, citing the discovery as "further evidence of the cynical use that the Hamas terrorist organization makes of the residents of the Gaza Strip as human shields."

Nevertheless, things are not close to being over. This war will last a month more at least. Certainly past Christmas/New Years. I doubt there will be a Christmas truce though ...

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The civilian population of Gaza is complicit in the kidnapping. When a hostage managed to escape his captors, the civilians in Gaza caught him and delivered him back to Hamas terrorists.
Russian-Israeli hostage escaped from Hamas but was found and returned by Gazans, says aunt

And this aunt can tell the difference between civilians and Hamas ? Your link quotes her as saying “ the Gazans” which is ambiguous.

More importantly, even if her story is true, broadbrushing the entire civilian population of Gaza is illogical and bigoted.

Other reports say the hostage was handed over to Hamas.

I underlined and bold-faced the part that your response does not address and makes your response simply irrelevant.

And why do you think she doesn't know?

Thus your attempt to play to ambiguities doesn't work.

I made no claim about what happened. I expressed doubt that the mother of the hostage would know or be able to identify whether a Gazan was a civilian or a member of Hamas.

You are the one playing with the truth here, not me. Do you have a link to a report that does not rely on the mother's story and shows that those who handed the hostage back to Hamas were civilians not members of Hamas? If you do, show it. If you don't, please stop promoting unsubstantiated rumors that support your biases as fact.

I didn't pay attention to the origin, but I do recall that it specifically said the hostage was captured and handed over to Hamas. If they were captured by Hamas there would be no handing over.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Palestine and extremism is a self-perpetuating dilemma propagated by Iran et al and worsened by far right Israeli policy.

I don't see how Israel's policies have any real effect. They simply provide a convenient way of blaming the Jews but Hamas has already admitted that the real reason is Israel exists. Infinity + 1 still equals infinity.

The drive of Hamas exists. The Israeli policies help drive young men to kill themselves. There will always be hate, but extremism is much more than hate.

There will be extremism when there is money to radicalize. There are billions from Iran.

Hamas is the majority of the GDP of Gaza--you want to afford to live, you do what they want!

What some people seemingly are overlooking is that all of these far right Israeli policies on the Palestinians were put in place to protect Israelis. The policies don't exist just for the heck of it, or because the Israeli government hates the Palestinians. No, the policies are supposed to protect Israel.

The atrocity of October 7th happened anyway. Which should make some people stop and think whether doubling down on what didn't work is the path forward.

That's assuming that things wouldn't have been worse without those policies.

It makes no such assumption. It recognizes that the policies didn't prevent the slaughter. Could things have been worse. I suppose. Could things have been better? That is possible as well. The point is, people need to stop, humanize both sides, and redo the math.

The slaughter predates the very existence of Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"Apartheid was put in place to protect South Africans." is ridiculous

It was an absolute and certain article of faith amongst white South Africans during apartheid.

Being ridiculous has rarely prevented a political policy from being enacted.

(Which is yet another way in which the analogy between Israeli policy towards Palestinans and apartheid is apt).

And look at what happened when that government fell.

From who's prospective do you want us to look?

AKA Whose perspective would you like us to consider?

Everyone's. Just because the new oppressors have the same skin color doesn't make them not oppressors. The collapse of the apartheid government was a bad thing for everyone, black and white.

 

[laughing dog]

And why do you think she doesn't know?

. She was not a witness.

I didn't pay attention to the origin, but I do recall that it specifically said the hostage was captured and handed over to Hamas. If they were captured by Hamas there would be no handing over.

I am not going to analyse or explain the alleged contents of an unidentified report that you admit you did not pay attention to.

But once you realize your last sentence is uncritically applying the report description while forgetting the report is based on hearsay.

 

[Gospel]

"Apartheid was put in place to protect South Africans." is ridiculous

It was an absolute and certain article of faith amongst white South Africans during apartheid.

Being ridiculous has rarely prevented a political policy from being enacted.

(Which is yet another way in which the analogy between Israeli policy towards Palestinans and apartheid is apt).

And look at what happened when that government fell.

From who's prospective do you want us to look?

AKA Whose perspective would you like us to consider?

Everyone's. Just because the new oppressors have the same skin color doesn't make them not oppressors. The collapse of the apartheid government was a bad thing for everyone, black and white.

How?

 

[barbos]

So has anyone explained why Israel keeps on slowly moving their settlers into land which is considered palestinian?
Why? Why are they doing it?

 

[Patooka]

House Declares Anti-Zionism Is Antisemitism, Dividing Democrats

More than half of House Democrats declined to back the Republican-written resolution, as some argued that equating criticism of the state of Israel with hatred of the Jewish people went too far.

www.nytimes.com

Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert are now anti-semites now, apparently.

 

[barbos]

Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert are now anti-semites now, apparently.

Are you criticizing House members?