Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[laughing dog]

Working for MSF by day, Islamic Jihad terrorist by night.

IDF: Slain Gazan named as Doctors Without Borders staffer was Islamic Jihad rocket maker

Also, this tweet shows some photos of the physiotherapist cum rocket expert in uniform:


MSF claim that there were other causalities, but they are also denying he was moonlighting as a terrorist, so we should take whatever they say with a bucketful of salt.

. Too bad your glee is not moderated by the death of the 3 children and other civilians that the killing of this “rocket expert” apparently required.

 

[Gospel]

Yeah, I'm sure we can't find any pictures of physicians wearing their military uniforms. I certainly haven't seen any displayed in a doctors office in my entire life.

Edit: Does the IDF have one of him holding a rocket launcher at least?

 

[Derec]

. Too bad your glee is not moderated by the death of the 3 children and other civilians that the killing of this “rocket expert” apparently required.

I have no reason to take the claims of civilian fatalities at face value. MSF is already lying about Fadi Al-Wadiya not being a fighter with Islamic Jihad. So why trust them or the Hamas health ministry?
The bicycle wasn't that badly mangled - the frame is largely intact.

So it must have been a small charge. I doubt it had sufficient power to be deadly to somebody 10s of meters away.

An idea: maybe US should ship Israel a few boatloads of the ninja/can opener missiles for strikes like this one.

 

[Derec]

Yeah, I'm sure we can't find any pictures of physicians wearing their military uniforms. I certainly haven't seen any displayed in a doctors office in my entire life.

Are you seriously going to compare being a soldier in the US armed forces with being a fighter in a terrorist organization?

Edit: Does the IDF have one of him holding a rocket launcher at least?

Why should that be necessary?

Note the Islamic Jihad logo on the poster above these fighters.

 

[laughing dog]

. Too bad your glee is not moderated by the death of the 3 children and other civilians that the killing of this “rocket expert” apparently required.

I have no reason to take the claims of civilian fatalities at face value. MSF is already lying about Fadi Al-Wadiya not being a fighter with Islamic Jihad. So why trust them or the Hamas health ministry?

How do you know that this man was a fighter with Islamic jihad>? Oh yeah,, you uncritically accept whatever the IDF tells you.

The bicycle wasn't that badly mangled - the frame is largely intact.

So it must have been a small charge. I doubt it had sufficient power to be deadly to somebody 10s of meters away.

WTF? That is certainly enough to kill a child. But then again, Gazan children are not real people, so no big loss.

 

[Gospel]

Yeah, I'm sure we can't find any pictures of physicians wearing their military uniforms. I certainly haven't seen any displayed in a doctors office in my entire life.

Are you seriously going to compare being a soldier in the US armed forces with being a fighter in a terrorist organization?

Edit: Does the IDF have one of him holding a rocket launcher at least?

Why should that be necessary?

Note the Islamic Jihad logo on the poster above these fighters.

I'm saying that showing a picture of someone in a military uniform doesn't necessarily prove that they are currently serving in the military.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You claim to not support ethnic cleansing--but the side seeking to do that is Hamas.

Hamas wants to engage in ethnic cleansing of Israel and Jews, but is failing. Israel is successfully engaging in slow motion ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and in Gaza.

In an attempt to forestall the usual horseshit accusations, I think ethnic cleansing is wrong no matter who does it for whatever reason.

The population of Gaza has almost certainly increased during the war.

What factual evidence do you possess that would lead a rational disinterested observer to find your conjecture credible?

It's simple observation of reality. Note the birth rate in Gaza. It's only now that the war has any real opportunity to change the birth rate, up until now it would be as it was.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What is your answer for when someone's trying to kill you while hiding behind civilians?

My response is: that's what snipers are for. If you can't get a clean shot right away, then you patiently wait until the hostage taker makes a mistake and you seize the opportunity to get the hostage back safely.

There are many possible ways to eliminate a threat hiding behind a hostage. Shooting through the hostage in order to kill the hostage-taker, or killing everything that moves in the area where you suspect the hostage taker might be hiding, are two possibilities, neither of which are acceptable if you value the life of the hostage.

How long would an Israeli sniper stay undiscovered or alive in the crowded confines of Gaza?

Sounds such a splendid idea when safe in the confines or your office or home typing at a keyboard but absolutely impossible in the real world of Gaza/Israel.

The reason I brought up the book Black Hawk Down: A Story of Modern War is because the raid to free hostages in Gaza last week brought it to mind. Over 200 Somalis were killed and more than 700 wounded in the Battle of Mogadishu as the American forces first raided a meeting of Mohammed Farah Aidid's lieutenants and then fought to get themselves and their wounded comrades to safety.

The book illustrates what I think you're getting at, that it's impossible to avoid civilian casualties when a firefight breaks out in a crowded area. Hell, just looking at all the gun violence in America illustrates the same point. Bullets go flying in all directions, including through walls, when people hyped up on adrenaline start shooting.

But my point stands: shooting through a hostage in order to kill the hostage-taker, or killing everything that moves in the area where you suspect the hostage taker might be hiding, are two possible ways to eliminate the threat the hostage taker poses. Neither option is acceptable if you value the life of the hostage or want to avoid killing innocents.

You're the one framing it as "to kill the hostage taker". That's not what's going on--the actual situation is shooting to stop the hostage taker from doing additional bad actions.

If you're not trying to kill the hostage taker, then why are you shooting? What the heck are you aiming at, or are you not aiming at all?

Your response here makes no sense, especially considering your defense of the IDF shooting people trying to surrender.

You still haven't adequately addressed what to do about the aggressor carrying a baby.

And Black Hawk Down is what you get when you try your approach. 200 dead + 19 friendlies dead rather than the Israeli approach which would have been a Hellfire or the like with only a few dead.

A Hellfire missile targeting what? The apartment building where suspected hostage takers were holding hostages?

The meeting.

The IDF killed over 200 people and injured close to 700 when they rescued those 4 hostages on the 8th of this month. That is comparable to the death toll among Somalis in the Battle of Mogadishu.

That's what Hamas wants you to think. Remember, though, Hamas was flinging RPGs about in busy city streets. How many of those dead were from Hamas misses rather than the IDF? The IDF team went in by stealth, they can't have been carrying heavy weapons.

It seems to me there is a double standard being employed here, where people are arguing in favor of an approach that kills tens of thousands of civilians while at the same time are expressing horror at the thought of tens of thousands of civilians being killed in the exact same way and for the exact same reason, the difference being the race, ethnicity, and religious affiliation of the people being killed.

You seem to not have a concept of who is the aggressor.

The best solution is nobody dead, but if some are to die it's better that they be from the side that chooses war.

I believe in judging actions by one single standard regardless of those factors. If the thought of a Jewish grandmother being killed by a sniper as she holds the hand of a preschooler waving a white flag upsets you, if you think "That's terrible, that little kid's Bubbe was murdered trying to get him to safety!", then IMO you should feel the same way about this. And you should be willing to call it a war crime because that's what it was.

And you simply take it as a given that the shooter was Israeli. That was in all probability Hamas.

*** I'm going to say this again because some folks are really struggling with the notion of criticizing more than one faction in a fight: I wholeheartedly condemn the Hamas fighters who murdered and kidnapped unarmed Israeli civilians, and the Hamas leadership who planned and coordinated the October 7th attack. I support the war effort to remove them from power. I do not support human rights violations, war crimes, and what looks like ethnic cleansing and apartheid.

You "support" the war effort but only to a standard of perfection that's unattainable in the real world.

You claim to not support human rights violations--but almost all of them are from Hamas.
You claim to not support war crimes--but almost all of them are from Hamas.
You claim to not support ethnic cleansing--but the side seeking to do that is Hamas.

If you can't (or won't) read the words I wrote with comprehension, stop pretending you are responding to them.

The problem is you are taking it on faith that all the bad comes from Israel even when faced with actions that are almost certainly Hamas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Arctish
The tacit principle underlying the justification of the IDF death and destruction toll is that Gazan civilians are not real people just unfortunate obstacles to the utopian goal of wiping out Islamic terrorists in Gaza. Nothing else matters.

That principle drives every handwaved dismissal of any proposed amelioration of current tactics. It drives the straw men and eye popping excuses.

We handwave away answers that handwave away the reality of the situation.

Every party in this tragic mess wants “peace” on their own terms. Serious proponents of peace realize peace requires courage, compassion and compromise not excuses nor accusations. Real peace requires a mutual level of trust something that region lacks.

Israelis are victims of Hamas and their ilk. Gazan civilians are victims of Hamas and the IDF. All victims deserve compassion and as much protection from harm as possible. IDF apologists disagree because Gazan civilians are not real people.

Nobody's saying that the Gazan civilians shouldn't be protected to the extent feasible. It's just you're operating on the faith that there's perfect protection possible. I do not consider myself qualified to second guess what are clearly the world experts. For some reason you do.

 

[laughing dog]

You claim to not support ethnic cleansing--but the side seeking to do that is Hamas.

Hamas wants to engage in ethnic cleansing of Israel and Jews, but is failing. Israel is successfully engaging in slow motion ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and in Gaza.

In an attempt to forestall the usual horseshit accusations, I think ethnic cleansing is wrong no matter who does it for whatever reason.

The population of Gaza has almost certainly increased during the war.

What factual evidence do you possess that would lead a rational disinterested observer to find your conjecture credible?

It's simple observation of reality. Note the birth rate in Gaza. It's only now that the war has any real opportunity to change the birth rate, up until now it would be as it was.

In other words, no evidence.

 

[laughing dog]

Arctish
The tacit principle underlying the justification of the IDF death and destruction toll is that Gazan civilians are not real people just unfortunate obstacles to the utopian goal of wiping out Islamic terrorists in Gaza. Nothing else matters.

That principle drives every handwaved dismissal of any proposed amelioration of current tactics. It drives the straw men and eye popping excuses.

We handwave away answers that handwave away the reality of the situation.

Irony squared.

Every party in this tragic mess wants “peace” on their own terms. Serious proponents of peace realize peace requires courage, compassion and compromise not excuses nor accusations. Real peace requires a mutual level of trust something that region lacks.

Israelis are victims of Hamas and their ilk. Gazan civilians are victims of Hamas and the IDF. All victims deserve compassion and as much protection from harm as possible. IDF apologists disagree because Gazan civilians are not real people.

Nobody's saying that the Gazan civilians shouldn't be protected to the extent feasible. It's just you're operating on the faith that there's perfect protection possible. I do not consider myself qualified to second guess what are clearly the world experts. For some reason you do.

Bullshit. Ignoring your “perfect protection”, you routinely 2nd guess those “world experts” whenever they apologize for killing noncombatants.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

These men spend all day studying Jewish religious lore, and there is a lot of it. "... their part in protecting the state"? As if they are brigades of sorcerers in the IDF, fighting by casting magic spells.

I'm a strong supporter of Israel. But this has always been a mystery to me. The Torah is about the same amount of words as the Lord of the Rings. Why not give them an exemption until they turn 25 or so; but then they serve. If they need 7 years to read a book of this size and understand it; they are probably not sharp enough to be in the military though!

I don't even see why there should be any exemption.

And I don't believe it's really a matter of reading per se, but trying to interpret things that are often unclear even when they were written, let alone now. Religious stuff contains an awful lot of things that have quite an if-by-whiskey nature to them. Think of the 2nd amendment (exactly what does the militia bit mean??) or the ADA (what is a "reasonable accommodation"??) Turn that up to 11 and you have religious-book-study, for whatever flavor religion.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The population of Gaza has almost certainly increased during the war.

What factual evidence do you possess that would lead a rational disinterested observer to find your conjecture credible?

It's simple observation of reality. Note the birth rate in Gaza. It's only now that the war has any real opportunity to change the birth rate, up until now it would be as it was.

In other words, no evidence.

You want me to go prove women are still giving birth???

Up until now virtually all births were due to conceptions that took place before the war. There should not have been any appreciable change in the birth rate. They have been growing at 2%/year. That's more than even Hamas claims has died.

And let's look at all those "women" and "children" who are dying. Palestinian site trying to identify the dead. Reverse chronological order, Arabic but you'll see my point anyway (the page number selector is "backwards" because Arabic is a right-to-left language):

Ø´Ùداء ÙÙسطÙÙ - اÙعا٠2024 - Ùرصد Ø´ÙرÙÙ

Ùرصد Ø´ÙرÙÙ Ù٠جÙد تطÙع٠بØت Ù٠صØÙÙÙ٠زÙÙاء ÙÙØ´ÙÙدة اÙصØÙÙØ© Ø´ÙرÙ٠أب٠عاÙÙØ©Ø Ø¨Ùد٠استÙÙا٠عÙÙÙا اÙØ°Ù ÙدÙت ØÙاتÙا Ù٠سبÙÙÙ Ù٠تÙØ«ÙÙ ÙÙØ¶Ø Ø¬Ø±Ø§Ø¦Ù Ø§ÙاØتÙا٠اÙاسرائÙÙ٠بØ٠اÙشعب اÙÙÙسطÙÙÙ.

www.shireen.ps

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Arctish
The tacit principle underlying the justification of the IDF death and destruction toll is that Gazan civilians are not real people just unfortunate obstacles to the utopian goal of wiping out Islamic terrorists in Gaza. Nothing else matters.

That principle drives every handwaved dismissal of any proposed amelioration of current tactics. It drives the straw men and eye popping excuses.

We handwave away answers that handwave away the reality of the situation.

Irony squared.

In other words, you have no actual rebuttal.

Every party in this tragic mess wants “peace” on their own terms. Serious proponents of peace realize peace requires courage, compassion and compromise not excuses nor accusations. Real peace requires a mutual level of trust something that region lacks.

Israelis are victims of Hamas and their ilk. Gazan civilians are victims of Hamas and the IDF. All victims deserve compassion and as much protection from harm as possible. IDF apologists disagree because Gazan civilians are not real people.

Nobody's saying that the Gazan civilians shouldn't be protected to the extent feasible. It's just you're operating on the faith that there's perfect protection possible. I do not consider myself qualified to second guess what are clearly the world experts. For some reason you do.

Bullshit. Ignoring your “perfect protection”, you routinely 2nd guess those “world experts” whenever they apologize for killing noncombatants.

Because there is a clear pattern of when something bad happens and they can't quickly rule out the possibility it was their oops they apologize. It often turns out not to have been them or not even real. (I'm thinking of an ambulance they supposedly hit with a missile. A missile that somehow left a rusty hole??) Thus I do not consider their apology as evidence of guilt.

 

[laughing dog]

Arctish
The tacit principle underlying the justification of the IDF death and destruction toll is that Gazan civilians are not real people just unfortunate obstacles to the utopian goal of wiping out Islamic terrorists in Gaza. Nothing else matters.

That principle drives every handwaved dismissal of any proposed amelioration of current tactics. It drives the straw men and eye popping excuses.

We handwave away answers that handwave away the reality of the situation.

Irony squared.

In other words, you have no actual rebuttal.

More irony. There was nothing to rebut. Your response is the functional equivalent of sticking yiur fingers in your ears while saying “You arsn’t saying anything” “

Every party in this tragic mess wants “peace” on their own terms. Serious proponents of peace realize peace requires courage, compassion and compromise not excuses nor accusations. Real peace requires a mutual level of trust something that region lacks.

Israelis are victims of Hamas and their ilk. Gazan civilians are victims of Hamas and the IDF. All victims deserve compassion and as much protection from harm as possible. IDF apologists disagree because Gazan civilians are not real people.

Nobody's saying that the Gazan civilians shouldn't be protected to the extent feasible. It's just you're operating on the faith that there's perfect protection possible. I do not consider myself qualified to second guess what are clearly the world experts. For some reason you do.

Bullshit. Ignoring your “perfect protection”, you routinely 2nd guess those “world experts” whenever they apologize for killing noncombatants.

Because there is a clear pattern of when something bad happens and they can't quickly rule out the possibility it was their oops they apologize. It often turns out not to have been them or not even real. (I'm thinking of an ambulance they supposedly hit with a missile. A missile that somehow left a rusty hole??) Thus I do not consider their apology as evidence of guilt.

You realize you confirmed my point

BTW, it is reported today that your world experts favor a ceasefire in Gaza.

 

[laughing dog]

The population of Gaza has almost certainly increased during the war.

What factual evidence do you possess that would lead a rational disinterested observer to find your conjecture credible?

It's simple observation of reality. Note the birth rate in Gaza. It's only now that the war has any real opportunity to change the birth rate, up until now it would be as it was.

In other words, no evidence.

You want me to go prove women are still giving birth???…

No. my desire is a triumph if hope over experience: support your theoretical conclusion with evidence.

The year before oct 7, around 20,000 babies were born in Gaza. Even Israel admits to more than 30,000 deaths. That does not include the missing and those who fled. That arithmetic suggests a decline in Gazan population.

 

[Tigers!]

The population of Gaza has almost certainly increased during the war.

What factual evidence do you possess that would lead a rational disinterested observer to find your conjecture credible?

It's simple observation of reality. Note the birth rate in Gaza. It's only now that the war has any real opportunity to change the birth rate, up until now it would be as it was.

In other words, no evidence.

You want me to go prove women are still giving birth???…

No. my desire is a triumph if hope over experience: support your theoretical conclusion with evidence.

The year before oct 7, around 20,000 babies were born in Gaza. Even Israel admits to more than 30,000 deaths. That does not include the missing and those who fled. That arithmetic suggests a decline in Gazan population.

Where did you get the figure of 20,000 babies born in Gaza in 2023? This site suggests 3x that figure in 2023 Babies born in Gaza 2023

 

[laughing dog]

The population of Gaza has almost certainly increased during the war.

What factual evidence do you possess that would lead a rational disinterested observer to find your conjecture credible?

It's simple observation of reality. Note the birth rate in Gaza. It's only now that the war has any real opportunity to change the birth rate, up until now it would be as it was.

In other words, no evidence.

You want me to go prove women are still giving birth???…

No. my desire is a triumph if hope over experience: support your theoretical conclusion with evidence.

The year before oct 7, around 20,000 babies were born in Gaza. Even Israel admits to more than 30,000 deaths. That does not include the missing and those who fled. That arithmetic suggests a decline in Gazan population.

Where did you get the figure of 20,000 babies born in Gaza in 2023? This site suggests 3x that figure in 2023 Babies born in Gaza 2023

I misread the site- I thought the 20,000 was for the entire year. So at this point, the data indicates an increase in population: my point is in error.

 

[TomC]

I misread the site- I thought the 20,000 was for the entire year. So at this point, the data indicates an increase in population: my point is in error.

Can never have too much cannon fodder or too many human shields.

More Gazans is better for the Gazan leadership.
Tom

 

[Arctish]

I misread the site- I thought the 20,000 was for the entire year. So at this point, the data indicates an increase in population: my point is in error.

Can never have too much cannon fodder or too many human shields.

Speaking of human shields:
Wounded Palestinian civilian tied to the hood of a jeep

IDF use of human shields documented on a large scale

Israeli forces use Palestinian children as human shields

As the LA Times article notes, Israel's Supreme Court ordered the military to stop using human shields in 2005 after public outcry over well documented instances like this, but the evidence shows the practice is ongoing.

Meanwhile, the IDF openly operates out of Tel Aviv, so I expect to hear you condemning them for endangering Israeli civilians the same way Hamas endangers Gazans anytime now.