Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[pood]

Oops! Netanyahu has walked it all back!

What a complete surprise! Except it was completely predicted by the opponents of his lunacy!

And those are hundreds of Palestinian prisoners to be released, not thousands.

So Netanyahu sold his people and the world a big fat lie, at the expense of untold lives lost and wrecked.

 

[pood]

You are right in one thing pood.

This is a rotten deal, and Israel should never have been pressured to accept it. WWII did not end with Nazis left in power and thousand war criminals released.

Except those of us who know better knew that it would end this way, that the World War II analogy was always completely spurious, and that Israel has now bred new generations of terrorists who will be hell-bent on revenge. Nice work, Bibi!

 

[Derec]

Except those of us who know better knew that it would end this way,

Because Israel is always pressured to end fighting before the job is done, not because of some structural impossibility to destroy Hamas as a fighting force.

that the World War II analogy was always completely spurious,

Only because Roosevelt and Churchill were not pressured to agree to a ceasefire after 15 months.

and that Israel has now bred new generations of terrorists who will be hell-bent on revenge.

They were already hell-bent on revenge, and Hamas, Islamic Jihad already did a very good job indoctrinating and recruiting. As far as indoctrinating children, UNRWA schools have been complicit as well.
So I do not think this war will increase either the number of recruits nor the intensity of their fanatical hatred. But now Hamas has fewer experienced fighters and senior officers, less access to weapons, and a degraded tunnel network.
Releasing 1000 terrorists in the first phase alone is a bitter pill, but 20k terrorists have been killed, including many battalion and brigade commanders as well as top leaders like Yaya Sinwar and Mohammed Deif. So that's a consolation.

Nice work, Bibi!

If you were the PM of Israel, what would you have done in response to the genocidal attack on 10/7?

 

[Derec]

What a complete surprise! Except it was completely predicted by the opponents of his lunacy!
And those are hundreds of Palestinian prisoners to be released, not thousands.

On the contrary, hundreds prisoners being released for 33 hostages is far less insane than releasing 1,000, with 150 of them being murderers serving life sentences.

So Netanyahu sold his people and the world a big fat lie, at the expense of untold lives lost and wrecked.

Hamas has suffered many losses in the last 15 months. In a sane world, they would be surrendering unconditionally, instead of making these ridiculous demands. In a sane world, international community, including the US, would not be supporting Hamas lunacy either.

Do you think there is anything wrong with Hamas demands for releasing these hostages? Why do you always attack Israel only, never the Palestinians? Remember, they are the ones who attacked Israel, and they are the ones who took hostages. They are in the wrong here!

 

[pood]

What a complete surprise! Except it was completely predicted by the opponents of his lunacy!
And those are hundreds of Palestinian prisoners to be released, not thousands.

On the contrary, hundreds prisoners being released for 33 hostages is far less insane than releasing 1,000, with 150 of them being murderers serving life sentences.

I simply corrected my initial statement that thousands were to be released, after pointing out that I had only skimmed the news report.

So Netanyahu sold his people and the world a big fat lie, at the expense of untold lives lost and wrecked.

Hamas has suffered many losses in the last 15 months. In a sane world, they would be surrendering unconditionally, instead of making these ridiculous demands. In a sane world, international community, including the US, would not be supporting Hamas lunacy either.

The U.S. does not support Hamas. Nor do I. And your “in a sane world, they would be surrendering unconditionally,” is a laugh riot. People like me told people like you that this would NEVER happen, and we were right and you were wrong. Own up to it.

Do you think there is anything wrong with Hamas demands for releasing these hostages? Why do you always attack Israel only, never the Palestinians? Remember, they are the ones who attacked Israel, and they are the ones who took hostages. They are in the wrong here!

This is completely false. The Palestinian people did not attack Israel, Hamas did. The Palestinian people have as little say over what Hamas does as I have over what Trump does. I do not support or condone Hamas.

You have been repeatedly corrected on this point. Please stop propounding the poisonous falsehood that the Palestinian people attacked Israel.

 

[ZiprHead]

And those are hundreds of Palestinian prisoners to be released, not thousands.

I heard they were going to be mostly women and children.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In countersigning the genocide of the Palestinian people, he joined in the very worst of American presidential traditions, that which has tarnished the reputation and effectiveness of the office since the hour of its formation.

I genuinely don't get how someone who seems so intelligent can so completely swallow this "palestinian genocide" propaganda.

Strictly, propaganda is a neutral term, deriving from “propagate,” as in “propagate information.”

Probably the propagated information is being “swallowed” because it happens to be true.

A fake genocide meets a real one

The obsession with Jews and Israel diverts column inches and airtime away from humanitarian crises that are far more dire than Gaza and far more intractable.

www.jns.org

If you care about genocide why the silence about Sudan?

What do you want me to say about Sudan? What is happening in Sudan somehow makes what is happening in Gaza OK?

The headline gives away the game: “fake genocide.” It’s not a fake genocide. And invoking “the obsession with Jews” in the subhead and in the very first graph talking about pogroms and “Nazi thuggery” is contemptible. While some people who oppose Israel and specifically oppose its policy in Gaza may be anti-Semitic, the vast majority are not, and as I am sure you are aware, many Jews oppose what Israel is doing in Gaza.

It's fake. In a real genocide you would see far more dead and a far higher percentage of civilians.

No one should be deterred by having the bogus “anti-Semite” card pulled from calling out Israel on its crimes against humanity. This is exactly the same thing people did when opponents of the Vietnam War were labeled “Communists” and when opponents of Nazi Germany were labeled traitors to the “master race.” It is always when the truth is indefensible that such cowardly slurs come to the fore.

The antisemite card comes out when they are treated very differently in similar situations. If Israel is guilty of crimes against humanity specify exactly what they are doing. Note that the death toll is not relevant.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And — isn’t it interesting! — from what I have admittedly skim-read so far, the cease-fire deal not only leaves Hamas in place but will mean the realease of thousands of Palestinian prisoners! So where are now those of you who said that the indiscriminate slaughter and mass relocation of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians was a regrettable necessity to “win” the war and remove Hamas from power? In contrast to those of us who from day one told you Israel would never succeed in this goal of destroying Hamas, and in fact, as we shall see, Israel just bred the next ten generations of terrorists?

You are right that it's a horrible deal. But that doesn't mean they just bred the next ten generations of terrorists--by saying that you show you do not understand. Israeli action do not breed terrorists, Iranian money breeds terrorists.

Where are the terrorists in Western Sahara? Where are the terrorists in Sudan? Both are far worse situations, but nobody's funding terror so there isn't terror.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And those are hundreds of Palestinian prisoners to be released, not thousands.

I heard they were going to be mostly women and children.

They're all terrorists. "Women and children" clearly does not mean they are not combatants.

(Hamas doesn't want common criminals, only terrorists.)

 

[Politesse]

Israeli action do not breed terrorists, Iranian money breeds terrorists.

How is slaughtering 17,000 children supposed to stop Iranian money? It's had quite the opposite effect in practice. The inhuman actions you endorse with so little thought are practically printing their propaganda for them, and the fundraising is pouring in by the billions. When shocked parents are stumbling through the streets with their children's disembodied heads, they don't even have to write the words "No solution but jihad" below the photo, the caption is just situationally implied. You're just doing free recruiting for the enemy at that point. Those kind of images don't make people scared, they make them furious. That's exactly why the Palestinian Authority did what they did, they knew it would provoke a usedul overreaction and both fund and motivate the next century of pointless, bloody war.

 

[Politesse]

In countersigning the genocide of the Palestinian people, he joined in the very worst of American presidential traditions, that which has tarnished the reputation and effectiveness of the office since the hour of its formation.

I genuinely don't get how someone who seems so intelligent can so completely swallow this "palestinian genocide" propaganda.

Yeah, well. I may confuse you, but you don't confuse me in the slightest.

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

You are right in one thing pood.

This is a rotten deal, and Israel should never have been pressured to accept it. WWII did not end with Nazis left in power and thousand war criminals released.

Netanyahu is officially a war criminal, so you are right that a war criminal has been "released" (released from responsibility, as he has not yet been arrested).

And — isn’t it interesting! — from what I have admittedly skim-read so far, the cease-fire deal not only leaves Hamas in place but will mean the realease of thousands of Palestinian prisoners! So where are now those of you who said that the indiscriminate slaughter and mass relocation of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians was a regrettable necessity to “win” the war and remove Hamas from power? In contrast to those of us who from day one told you Israel would never succeed in this goal of destroying Hamas, and in fact, as we shall see, Israel just bred the next ten generations of terrorists?

You are right that it's a horrible deal. But that doesn't mean they just bred the next ten generations of terrorists--by saying that you show you do not understand. Israeli action do not breed terrorists, Iranian money breeds terrorists.

Where are the terrorists in Western Sahara? Where are the terrorists in Sudan? Both are far worse situations, but nobody's funding terror so there isn't terror.

And those are hundreds of Palestinian prisoners to be released, not thousands.

I heard they were going to be mostly women and children.

They're all terrorists. "Women and children" clearly does not mean they are not combatants.

(Hamas doesn't want common criminals, only terrorists.)

You contradict yourself. In the first quote you claim no new terrorists have been created, and in the second that all these women and children are now terrorists. BTW they are not combatants, simply "luckier" (in that not dead, but no doubt homeless) victims of the actual terrorists - the IDF and the Israeli government.

 

[ZiprHead]

It's fake. In a real genocide you would see far more dead and a far higher percentage of civilians.

I ask you again what data you used to come to that conclusion?

It's been asked of you several times before but you have yet to respond. I expect no response again.

 

[Derec]

I simply corrected my initial statement that thousands were to be released, after pointing out that I had only skimmed the news report.

We certainly do not know the exact numbers Israel and Hamas talked about.
May be moot anyway, as Hamas hasn't delivered the list of names of hostages to be released in the first phase by the deadline, and so the ceasefire is postponed for now.
Israel says Gaza ceasefire delayed until Hamas provides names of first hostages to be freed
Hamas is blaming "technical issues", but that seems like an excuse.

The U.S. does not support Hamas.

I did not say US supports Hamas. I said US supports the idea that Israel should free hundreds of terrorists, including 150 guilty of murder and serving life sentences in exchange for 33 hostages - with ~65 still remaining in captivity.

Nor do I. And your “in a sane world, they would be surrendering unconditionally,” is a laugh riot. People like me told people like you that this would NEVER happen, and we were right and you were wrong. Own up to it.

I will not! The issue is not one of impossibility, it is one of pressure. It would have been impossible to beat Nazi Germany either if the Allies were pressured to enter a lopsided ceasefire after 15 months of war!

This is completely false. The Palestinian people did not attack Israel, Hamas did. The Palestinian people have as little say over what Hamas does as I have over what Trump does.

That is bullshit. First of all, Hamas is a part of the Palestinian people, it is not apart from it. Second, Hamas was not the only group that was involved in the 10/7 attack. Look here:  October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel
Under "Units Involved" you will see "Palestinian Joint Operations Room" which coordinates operations between various factions. Then you have
the al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas
the al-Quds Brigades, Islamic Jihad
the al-Nasser Salah al-Deen Brigades, Popular Resistance Committees
the Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades, PFLP
the National Resistance Brigades, DFLP
the al-Ansar Brigades, remnants of Fatah
the Mujahideen Brigades
So contrary to your claim that it's just Hamas, groups from all over the Palestinian society participated - even those ideologically diametrically opposed to Hamas such as PFLP and DFLP, two Marxist-Leninist groups.

I do not support or condone Hamas.

Who do you support among Palestinians?

You have been repeatedly corrected on this point.

And you have been corrected on that spurious correction.

Please stop propounding the poisonous falsehood that the Palestinian people attacked Israel.

And who did? It sure wasn't the Martians.

 

[Derec]

I heard they were going to be mostly women and children.

Heard where? And "children" is misleading here. It's teenagers.

 

[TomC]

I think you are confusing potential agreements. At the time of Ziprhead's post, there was an agreement for a ceasefire to take effect later. There is an agreement which means the parties are sufficiently okay with terms regardless of the retrograde views of outsiders

Lemme start by pointing out that I am super skeptical of any public statements or media reports coming out of that God forsaken mess. I'm in "I'll believe it when I see it" mode, pretty much.

I think you are confusing proposed agreement with actual agreement. Proposed agreement is the potential agreement, implementation makes it an actual agreement. And frankly, unless there are some solid enforcement mechanisms they will remain potential for some time to come.

I expect that to be the limiting factor, myself. I have trouble believing that the international terrorist cartel, represented in Gaza by Hamas, will agree to mechanisms that prevent them from starting to prepare for the next terrorist attack on Israel. I can't help but suspect that the Israeli government will keep insisting on enforcement mechanisms, knowing that the terrorists will keep refusing a ceasefire.
Tom

 

[Derec]

And those are hundreds of Palestinian prisoners to be released, not thousands.

Newest reports say it's actually 2,000 prisoners in the first phase alone, for 33 hostages.
Israeli hostages returned, Gaza families survey damage as ceasefire takes hold

The truce calls for fighting to stop, aid to be sent in to Gaza and 33 of the nearly 100 remaining Israeli and foreign hostages to go free over the six-week first phase in return for nearly 2,000 Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails. Many of the hostages are believed to be dead.

That's even worse than initially reported!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Then I don't see why you are arguing against me? They chose a king and that king attacked Israel and now it's shit for them. Actions and consequences. Israel did not deserve this. You keep ignoring just how extreme the 7/10 attack was. It was barbaric to a degree we haven't seen in generations.

Apparently you have not seen videos of what cartels do to captured members of other cartels or anyone that crosses them. Barbarism has never left our world culture the way you seem to think it has.

But the cartel violence is against those who cross them, it is not directed at the population at large.

Irrelevant to my point.

And the cartels do prey on the population at large. Forcing children to join their gang where refusal will be death of the family is not uncommon. I suspect HAMAS does the same.

I think you're mixing up the gangs (where in some areas that definitely does happen--plenty of the applications for refugee status stem from such situations) with the cartels. The cartels want a live and let live relationship with the locals, they are in the business of making money from exports, not from the locals.

(And you're not quite right about the Hamas part--it's not that they'll kill you for not being part of Hamas, but that Hamas ensures you have no other options but to do what they want.)

The gangs are the cartels. It's their enforcement divisions.

Gangs are the local business. Cartels are the international business who generally want to stay on good terms with the local population.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

[

In other words, the only answer is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews?

Or they could just leave and give the country back to the people they stole it from.

So where will all you Yanks go when you return the stolen lands back to the original inhabitants?
Whence would you return Zipr?

Same place you Aussies go.

My ancestry is English, Scottish, German and, oh yes, Australian. I was born here. I have as much right to be where I am as anyone else born here. We can discuss immigrants in another thread.

Just like you yanks.

Is it possible for you to not switch the goal posts? If Australia is returned back to the original inhabitants, whence would you return Tigers!? You expected Ziprhead to answer. Why don’t you live up to your expectations and answer?

Misdirection, again.

Tigers! isn't arguing for that position, he's reframing it to make it obvious that it's not an answer.

Please stop with your slanderous accusdations. I showed that his reframing it is not an answer either.

Of course it's not an answer! That's the whole point. Just go back where you came from is not an answer. Not for the Aussies, not for the Jews, not for much of anybody.

So even though you agree with me, you made a slanderous accusation.

Where is there a slanderous accusation?

The issue under discussion is "go back where you came from".

Tigers! flipped it over and asked Zipr where he would go back to--an indirect way of showing that it's not an option.

You added an irrelevancy rather than address the point.

Tigers! pointed out that he is not an immigrant. (And note that the vast majority of the Jews being told to "go home" are not immigrants, either.)

You complained about switching goal posts--no, no goal posts were moved, he just flipped the field. If it's fair one way it's fair the other.

I pointed out that you weren't addressing the point, you called that slander.

The only thing that states anything about anyone else is my saying that you're not addressing the point. To be slander that would have to be false. I sure don't see the point being addressed.

Wrong on all counts: no irrelevancy and I addressed the point. All your claims are false. And you are derailing the discussion with your persistent “mistaken” charactetizations.

Saying "wrong" without anything to back it up isn't a response. If it's false show what's false.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The majority of the Jews there came from Arab lands. So you're going to send them to genocide.

Please stop with that bigoted nonsense. Yes there are places where it would be dangerous, but there are plenty of Arabic and Muslim countries where it isn't.

And that's supposed to be relevant how?

It shows your claim is nonsense

You're not addressing my point at all. Many of them came from lands where they would be killed if they returned (not that they would even be allowed in, it's mostly the descendants who never were citizens of the country their parents came from), you aren't distinguishing which ones would be safe.

"Go home" doesn't mean to any Muslim land, it means to the country they came from. They're in Israel because they were driven out, why in the world do you think it would be safe for them to return?

Verify your claim that the only basis for Jews from Arabic lands in Isreal is that they were driven out.

Once again, off target.

I never claimed every Jew who was made to "go home" would die, only that many would. Genocide doesn't require complete extermination.

I didn’t say every Jew. Stop evading and provide evidence to support your claim of fact.

Doesn't have to be every Jew. The direction is being given to every Jew in Israel--for the majority it's death. Doesn't matter if it's not every Jew, that's still genocide.