Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Jimmy Higgins]

2) Even if true the Israeli action that started the war was it's existence. Thus the only "solution" along those lines is Hitler's Final Solution. Is that what you want?

So in your universe, one must support genocide, because they only alternative to genocide is genocide? As opposed to, say, not genocide?

That's not what Loren is saying, and you should be able to infer that on your own, Poli.

Israel has tried repeatedly for decades to keep some sort of peace with muslims living within Israel's borders - and whether you like it or not, Palestine is not a separate country, it is part of the nation of Israel, where Israel has essentially ceded a degree of independence within it's own border to the people who live there.

Some of Israel, yes. Some of Israel no. Israel isn't the Borg. People like Netanyahu have not sought peace. The US and Israel weren't buddies to start. There is a reason for that.

The only solution that Hamas, Palestine, and the entire Muslim region will accept is the extermination of Jews. They've proven that over and over again.

If you swapped every Jewish person in Israel with Texans, I'm going to think the same problems will subsist. This isn't nearly as much about religion as being sold.

 

[Elixir]

Israel isn't the Borg

Somehow the loudest voices in this are unwilling or unable to accept that. There is a compulsion to “exonerate Israel” every time someone accurately describes the actions of the Netanyahu government.
Why not accept the genocidal nature of Netanyahu’s pursuit of vengeance for the Hamas massacre? Why not acknowledge its expedience for Bibi personally, and the possibility that such benefit might enter into his decision making?
Elephants of that size barely fit into rooms this small.

 

[Emily Lake]

Tell me, Emily, if your neighbor threatened to kill you, would you walk over to his house and shoot him in the head? What about his wife? What about his children? What about his friends? Where would your personal desire for weregild end? Would your answer be different if he had in fact killed someone you knew? Would you then attempt to kill him back? What about his wife? His children? His friends?

This has got to be one of the most thoughtless bad analogies I've seen in a while.

Let's make this a wee bit more realistic: If my neighbor had been consistently threatening to kill me for decades, had physically attacked me multiple times, had killed my dog and tried to kill my cat, had kidnapped and tortured my spouse and my kid, and had continued doing so after me having tried multiple times to get them to stop... Yeah, I don't think I'd have a problem setting his house on fire. I'd warn his spouse and children to take the pets and leave (assuming they weren't actively helping him attack me on a regular basis), but my willingness to tolerate abuse and violence from my neighbor does actually have a limit.

Seriously, what the hell do you think should happen here? Should Israel be expected to just continue tolerating violence, attacks, and persistent vilification forever with no end in sight? Aren't you one of those that likes to trot out the "paradox of tolerance" as a means to justify attacking those whose beliefs and positions you disagree with?

 

[Emily Lake]

In context, this is also a terrifying statement. Do you truly believe that waqe should be waged, not just against Palestinian civilians, but every Muslim community in the world? You realize there are significant Muslim populations in your own country, right? Would you support the murder of your own countrymen as well?

Again, this is some grade-a dumb mischaracterization on your part Poli, and you fucking know it. Nothing in my post suggests such a thing, so stop making shit up to bolster your poor arguments.

 

[Politesse]

In context, this is also a terrifying statement. Do you truly believe that waqe should be waged, not just against Palestinian civilians, but every Muslim community in the world? You realize there are significant Muslim populations in your own country, right? Would you support the murder of your own countrymen as well?

Again, this is some grade-a dumb mischaracterization on your part Poli, and you fucking know it. Nothing in my post suggests such a thing, so stop making shit up to bolster your poor arguments.

You did not answer my question, but you complain that I don't know the answer. A rather self-defeating position from which to make a complaint, I think.

 

[Emily Lake]

In context, this is also a terrifying statement. Do you truly believe that waqe should be waged, not just against Palestinian civilians, but every Muslim community in the world? You realize there are significant Muslim populations in your own country, right? Would you support the murder of your own countrymen as well?

Again, this is some grade-a dumb mischaracterization on your part Poli, and you fucking know it. Nothing in my post suggests such a thing, so stop making shit up to bolster your poor arguments.

You did not answer my question, but you complain that I don't know the answer. A rather self-defeating position from which to make a complaint, I think.

I'm not going to be taunted into entertaining your strawman.

 

[Politesse]

This has got to be one of the most thoughtless bad analogies I've seen in a while.

It's not an analogy. It's a question of ethics.

Let's make this a wee bit more realistic: If my neighbor had been consistently threatening to kill me for decades, had physically attacked me multiple times, had killed my dog and tried to kill my cat, had kidnapped and tortured my spouse and my kid, and had continued doing so after me having tried multiple times to get them to stop... Yeah, I don't think I'd have a problem setting his house on fire. I'd warn his spouse and children to take the pets and leave (assuming they weren't actively helping him attack me on a regular basis), but my willingness to tolerate abuse and violence from my neighbor does actually have a limit.

I'm satisfied with your answer, though. That you would in fact resort to bloody vigilante justice, and burn children alive for the sake of your vendetta if they refused to leave when warned. I think you're full of shit, and that you would in fact be far too much of a coward to commit acts like yourself, but it is very revealing of the kind of world you expect us all to live in. I have no use for such savagery, personally.

Seriously, what the hell do you think should happen here? Should Israel be expected to just continue tolerating violence, attacks, and persistent vilification forever with no end in sight? Aren't you one of those that likes to trot out the "paradox of tolerance" as a means to justify attacking those whose beliefs and positions you disagree with?

Not commit (or attempt, or intend) genocide. Yes, that means the conflict will continue. But so does Netanyahu's campaign of death. No matter how many Palestinians he kills, the war will continue to rage imn perpetui. f violence is its only outlet. There is no such thing as a "final solution", emotionally sataisying though they may seem to the simple-minded. An entire people cannot be killed. Even if you have no moral objections, it's jsut not logistically possible. In the real world, it doesn't happen. And survivors and their alliesburn with vengeance. Committing atrocities has never led to peace, and it never will. The only question is which acts of violence you are willing to sanction.

I have no idea what you mean by "paradox of tolerance". I oppose genocide, in all contexts. I never promised to "tolerate" mass killings of civilians, nor ever would promise such a thing. Indeed, I don't know what "tolerance" of a pro-genocide position would even mean. Do you want me to just... look the other way while it happens? With my tax dollars? In the name of "tolerance"? The very idea is absurd.

Paint me a picture. How would a "tolerant" person respond to a call for genocide?

 

[Politesse]

In context, this is also a terrifying statement. Do you truly believe that waqe should be waged, not just against Palestinian civilians, but every Muslim community in the world? You realize there are significant Muslim populations in your own country, right? Would you support the murder of your own countrymen as well?

Again, this is some grade-a dumb mischaracterization on your part Poli, and you fucking know it. Nothing in my post suggests such a thing, so stop making shit up to bolster your poor arguments.

You did not answer my question, but you complain that I don't know the answer. A rather self-defeating position from which to make a complaint, I think.

I'm not going to be taunted into entertaining your strawman.

Then stop playing games. War isn't cute, and discussion of it should not be trite.

 

[ZiprHead]

The Jews kept winning.

Apparently not.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Gaza had autonomy.

WTAF???

Hamas had autonomy because they choose to attack Israel. On the other hand Israel had no choice to react exactly how they did, so Israel had no autonomy. That is the logic that befuddles Hamas "apologists", the antisemites, and the pro-genocide of Israelis group in this thread.

Are you enjoying your victim blaming?

That makes no sense to me. Please explain your reasoning.

What a surprise.

Israel has been in the defensive position in every single one of their wars they have fought. Arabs have just kept starting dumb wars. The current situation is because Jews have been good at defending themselves. The policies Israel have put in place has been to defend themselves. Stuff like the wall.

Not all Arabs. There's plenty of Arabs living happily in Israel who are Israeli. So the Arabs who chose to live in peaceful coexistance with Jews exist and are numerous.

Israel and the Jews are not the problem in the Middle-East conflicts. Its also a side show. The Muslims are a lot more focused on fighting and killing eachother.

After the 7/10 attack it became clear to the world that Hamas are malicious and will never stop. Since they are in power in Gaza taking them out was the only option.

But more importantly, Hamas is in power in Gaza. They attacked Israel first. And took civilian hostages. According to any reasonable rules of engagement Israel is fully within their rights to respond. Its not IDF's responsibility that Hamas uses Palestinian civilians like human shields. Gaza is a densely populated area. Given the context, the 7/10 was an extremely iresponsible act. That's not on IDF.

Whatever suffering the Palestinians are now going through is on Hamas.

It sucks. But it's the Israelis who are the victims here. The Palestinian people are the victims of Hamas' malicious and idiotic policies. That's not on Israel.

What's even more irresponsible is that Hamas is still holding hostages. After all that carbage. Its almost like Hamas doesn't care about the people they pretend to represent.

Anyway... no matter the Palestinian suffering they brought it on themselves. They have a lot of soul searching to do. Until then the world just needs to find a way to control and contain continued Palestinian aggression. And figure out why they're so preposterously aggressive. And not just to Jews. The Jordanians and Egyptian have also had bad experiences with them. Its a problematic culture. And I think, should be where we focus on fixing this

Also, Jews aren't perfect. Like any humans Jews are flawed. And have been under extreme continued pressure from aggressive neighbours. How about thinking about the context where Israel lives? Palestinians can just chose to stop being aggressive and all problems go away. Israelis need to continually stay on their toes and defend themselves. Its bizarre to blame them in this situation.

I don't think Israel has done anything wrong since the 7/10 attack. I think they have handled themselves so well that I think the harsh criticism they are facing now is genuine antisemitism.

Does it now make more sense to you?

 

[DrZoidberg]

The Jews kept winning.

Apparently not.

Their "problem" is that Israel aren't imperialistic and keep letting their enemies survive. Like decent humans do. That's why the conflicts keep going.

 

[Arctish]

Putting aside how they did it by taking land. One thing Israel did was create a modern state wihj democratic processes, agriculture, medicine, education, and manufacturing.

You would think Palestinians would rationally look at it and think it would a good thing to emulate. Never happened.

There are reasons it never happened that have nothing to do with race, religion, and ethnicity, and almost nothing to do with culture.

First of all, you can't just dismiss the loss of land. It wasn't just a name change for the place where they lived. It wasn't just "Oh, my house got knocked down" either. It was a loss of the house, the livelihood, and the accumulated wealth of thousands of families in a very short period of time, and the survivors being forced into overcrowded refugee camps and urban ghettos where their chances of recovering what was lost were slim-to-none.

And then on top of that was the deliberate economic sabotage when they did start to climb back up the ladder towards prosperity. Gaza could have been a decent place to live in if businesses like the greenhouses had been able to export their products and their workers been able to support themselves and their families.

Alternate Reality time: Suppose the Jewish immigrants hadn't made much headway in colonizing Galilee and had mostly settled into kibbutz in the Negev region. Suppose the establishment of the State of Israel had succeeded but only in that area, while everything north of Beersheba remained in the control of the Palestinians. Suppose Egypt controlled access to the Port of Gaza, Egypt and Jordan controlled shipping to and from the Port of Eilat, and over time a separation barrier was built around Israel to keep the Zionists away from the folks just trying to live their lives in Palestine.

Do you suppose Israel would be the economic success story it is now, with the agriculture, education, medicine, etc, that you cited? Or do you suppose, with their ability to import and export goods utterly dependent on the Christians and Muslims they picked a fight with, tens of thousands of Jewish refugees would have remained in refugee camps and dependent of international aid to receive adequate nutrition and health care, and to educate their children?

I think the penniless Jewish refugees that came flooding in would have been stuck living in poverty for generations. And I think racists and religious bigots would have been all too willing to blame the Jews for their plight. I think we'd hear a lot of slurs and disparaging comments about Jews having an affinity for ghetto life and Jewish culture celebrating thugs. I think we'd hear some folks claiming the only reason Jews had become doctors and scientists in places like Vienna was due to the civilizing influence of European culture - that left to their own devices, Jews would be a bunch of conniving backstabbers who can't be trusted to run their own affairs because "Look at the mess they made of things in their own country! Obviously they don't deserve human rights, and besides the Rothchilds control the money supply."

Heck, we hear it right now, with some folks loudly wondering what it was about Jews that made them so reviled in the European countries where they lived, completely ignoring the question of what it was about Europeans that made them treat religious and ethnic minorities with such contempt and extreme violence.

I guess victim blaming must be a sound tactic. It sure seems to convince a lot of people who really should know better. I'm not saying you're doing it steve_bank, but there are some posters here who engage in it regularly.

Before the Intifada the border was petty much open between Gaza-West Bank and Israel. People crossed to work. Palestinian business had a market in Israel and shipped throughout Israel.

The rise in terrorism led to Israel closing birders and walling off Gaza.

Closing borders to not let people from Gaza into Israel is one thing. Closing borders to not let people out of Gaza is something else. And closing borders so that all food, water, electricity, medicine, trade goods, donated aid, etc,. is delivered or withheld at Israel's discretion, is an act of war.

So is building new barriers on Palestinian land, which I'm sure you know happened along the border with the West Bank, around the illegal settlements, along the "Jews Only" roads Israel built outside of Israel, etc.

The history is complex. Every act is the result of what came before, and had an effect on what came after. But some acts are clearly and obviously more divisive, disruptive, unjust, and deserving of condemnation than others, and IMO we shouldn't try to 'both sides' the really bad ones.

If it's wrong when done to someone, it's wrong, period.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm

Dr Z appears ignorant of history.

Go back to the British Mandate. Depending on which side you look at both Arabs and militant Jews were terrorists. Menachim Begin future leader of Israel was part of bombing a hotel.

Simplistically Jews declared a state siezing land and denying right of return to Arabs outside the declared borders. As Palestinians are doing now, Jews under the British Mandate ran the weapons embargo and set up weapons manufacturing. It is not stretch to compare Palestinians under Israeli occupation to Jews under British occupation.

In the first war and two flowing wars Arab coalitions tried to destroy Israel and failed, they were humiliated. While Iran did not participate. the destruction of Israel became Arab and Iranian policy.

Eventuay Jordan and Egypt made peace with Israel, but the underlying hatred is there.The Israeli and Egyptian leaders were assassinated by their own people for making peace. Leaders may want peace on both sides, but many people on both sides do not. Deep hared on all sides.

Way back wen I joined an earlier version of the forum I etched online documentaries and read on the conflict. It is not a simple black and white dichotomy. Until the Gaza War I took a what I thought was a balanced view, both sides had valid issues. I can no longer support Israel as I once did. Nothing to do with antisemitism, it is about actions and polices.

Arab–Israeli conflict - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'm not ignorant of it. I just think its irrelevant.

With the same logic we can start demanding that any non-native American decendants leave USA. This sort of nationalistic twaddle will only lead to perpetual wars.

Maybe move on? Ask yourself why you're dragging up all this old stuff. Israel was founded in 1948. A time when the entire world was in utter chaos, trying to rebuild itself after WW2. Yes, things could have been done better. But at that time everyone was too exhausted to fight ideological battles. Yes, stuff happened. But it did happen. And now is now.

I think the reason you do think is relevant is antisemitism. Antisemitism has deep roots in any culturally Christian country. That's an unfortunate fact about our countries. It was what led to the holocaust and hasn't gone away.

Hating orientals also has deep roots in western culture. But, I guess, not as deep as our hatred for Jews.

I look forward to getting suspended again. Cheers

 

[ZiprHead]

I'm not ignorant of it. I just think its irrelevant.

Of course you do. It's the only way for your moralizing to work.

With the same logic we can start demanding that any non-native American decendants leave USA. This sort of nationalistic twaddle will only lead to perpetual wars.

Or we could have treated the native Americans as equals with rights to their own lands and properties. Sound familiar?

 

[laughing dog]

Gaza had autonomy.

WTAF???

Hamas had autonomy because they choose to attack Israel. On the other hand Israel had no choice to react exactly how they did, so Israel had no autonomy. That is the logic that befuddles Hamas "apologists", the antisemites, and the pro-genocide of Israelis group in this thread.

Are you enjoying your victim blaming?

That makes no sense to me. Please explain your reasoning.

What a surprise.

Israel has been in the defensive position in every single one of their wars they have fought. Arabs have just kept starting dumb wars. The current situation is because Jews have been good at defending themselves. The policies Israel have put in place has been to defend themselves. Stuff like the wall.

Not all Arabs. There's plenty of Arabs living happily in Israel who are Israeli. So the Arabs who chose to live in peaceful coexistance with Jews exist and are numerous.

Israel and the Jews are not the problem in the Middle-East conflicts. Its also a side show. The Muslims are a lot more focused on fighting and killing eachother.

After the 7/10 attack it became clear to the world that Hamas are malicious and will never stop. Since they are in power in Gaza taking them out was the only option.

But more importantly, Hamas is in power in Gaza. They attacked Israel first. And took civilian hostages. According to any reasonable rules of engagement Israel is fully within their rights to respond. Its not IDF's responsibility that Hamas uses Palestinian civilians like human shields. Gaza is a densely populated area. Given the context, the 7/10 was an extremely iresponsible act. That's not on IDF.

Whatever suffering the Palestinians are now going through is on Hamas.

It sucks. But it's the Israelis who are the victims here. The Palestinian people are the victims of Hamas' malicious and idiotic policies. That's not on Israel.

What's even more irresponsible is that Hamas is still holding hostages. After all that carbage. Its almost like Hamas doesn't care about the people they pretend to represent.

Anyway... no matter the Palestinian suffering they brought it on themselves. They have a lot of soul searching to do. Until then the world just needs to find a way to control and contain continued Palestinian aggression. And figure out why they're so preposterously aggressive. And not just to Jews. The Jordanians and Egyptian have also had bad experiences with them. Its a problematic culture. And I think, should be where we focus on fixing this

Also, Jews aren't perfect. Like any humans Jews are flawed. And have been under extreme continued pressure from aggressive neighbours. How about thinking about the context where Israel lives? Palestinians can just chose to stop being aggressive and all problems go away. Israelis need to continually stay on their toes and defend themselves. Its bizarre to blame them in this situation.

I don't think Israel has done anything wrong since the 7/10 attack. I think they have handled themselves so well that I think the harsh criticism they are facing now is genuine antisemitism.

Does it now make more sense to you?

Cool story bro. It explains your virtue signaling is based on straw men.

It does not explain your victim blaming remark unless you believe that victims of an attack get a carte blanche response.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm not ignorant of it. I just think its irrelevant.

Of course you do. It's the only way for your moralizing to work.

Its for this shit I've called people here antisemites

With the same logic we can start demanding that any non-native American decendants leave USA. This sort of nationalistic twaddle will only lead to perpetual wars.

Or we could have treated the native Americans as equals with rights to their own lands and properties. Sound familiar?

You displaying your ignorance of how Israel was formed. Well done

 

[ZiprHead]

I'm not ignorant of it. I just think its irrelevant.

Of course you do. It's the only way for your moralizing to work.

Its for this shit I've called people here antisemites

With the same logic we can start demanding that any non-native American decendants leave USA. This sort of nationalistic twaddle will only lead to perpetual wars.

Or we could have treated the native Americans as equals with rights to their own lands and properties. Sound familiar?

You displaying your ignorance of how Israel was formed. Well done

You thought the history was irrelevant. Apparently now it's not.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm not ignorant of it. I just think its irrelevant.

Of course you do. It's the only way for your moralizing to work.

Its for this shit I've called people here antisemites

With the same logic we can start demanding that any non-native American decendants leave USA. This sort of nationalistic twaddle will only lead to perpetual wars.

Or we could have treated the native Americans as equals with rights to their own lands and properties. Sound familiar?

You displaying your ignorance of how Israel was formed. Well done

You thought the history was irrelevant. Apparently now it's not.

If you are trying to make a case based on the history of a matter its always good to not embarass yourself through ignorance when you do.

Perhaps, stop drinking the antisemitic coolaid? Perhaps ask yourself why demands are made of Israelis that are not made of any other country. The skewed bias against Israel in what is being focused on is pretty extreme.

Israel has managed to survive against all odds by being smart. It's not a crime to be competent. The Arabs have been overly aggressive and stupid. How about we don't incentivise stupidity?

 

[ZiprHead]

I'm not ignorant of it. I just think its irrelevant.

Of course you do. It's the only way for your moralizing to work.

Its for this shit I've called people here antisemites

With the same logic we can start demanding that any non-native American decendants leave USA. This sort of nationalistic twaddle will only lead to perpetual wars.

Or we could have treated the native Americans as equals with rights to their own lands and properties. Sound familiar?

You displaying your ignorance of how Israel was formed. Well done

You thought the history was irrelevant. Apparently now it's not.

If you are trying to make a case based on the history of a matter its always good to not embarass yourself through ignorance when you do.

Was there something I said that was incorrect?

Perhaps, stop drinking the antisemitic coolaid? Perhaps ask yourself why demands are made of Israelis that are not made of any other country. The skewed bias against Israel in what is being focused on is pretty extreme.

HAMAS are assholes who pay no attention to the west. The Netanyahu administration are assholes the west is funding. Do you not understand that difference?

Israel has managed to survive against all odds by being smart violent. It's not a crime to be competent. The Arabs have been overly aggressive and stupid. How about we don't incentivise stupidity?

FTFY

 

[Arctish]

Why it's a good idea to check your sources: Pro-Israel AI Bot Goes Off The Rails

An AI-powered social media bot seemingly deployed to boost pro-Israel narratives online appears to be going wildly off script, instead criticizing the Israeli and American governments in strongly-worded missives.

As the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reports, an account called @FactFinderAI X on X-formerly-Twitter appears to be one of many designed to bolster pro-Israel digital campaigning efforts using generative AI.

Except, like a deeply confused activist, the bot keeps radically switching sides — even, in one instance flagged by Haaretz, denouncing the Israeli Defense Force as "white colonizers in apartheid Israel."