Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

More murderous terrorists released for a handful of hostages. This ceasefire getting to be a worse deal by the day.

Hamas Makes Gaunt Israeli Hostages Thank Captors Before Release

Hamas released three Israeli hostages on Saturday in exchange for 183 Palestinians jailed by Israel, in a staged handover where rifle-toting Hamas fighters prodded their gaunt captives to give short speeches, effectively at gunpoint, thanking the militants who had held them captive for 16 months.
[...]
For Hamas, the heavily choreographed hostage handover reinforced the group’s message that, despite a devastating war in the Gaza Strip that killed thousands of its members and much of its leadership, the group remains in power there, defying Israeli leaders’ vow to wipe it out. In a statement on the hostage release, Hamas said, “This confirms that our people and their resistance have the upper hand.”

All the more reason why this rotten ceasefire should never have taken place. It was too early, Hamas wasn't degraded enough, and Israel made too many concessions regarding the numbers and kinds of released terrorists. The numbers should have been far less, and any murderers should have been excluded.

Another Palestinian whose home on the West Bank was raided, Shadi Barghouti, was serving a 27-year sentence for being an accomplice to murder, amid other charges, according to the Israeli Justice Ministry. Family members said his father, Fakhri Barghouti, 70, was beaten during the raid.
The Barghoutis, father and son, had overlapped in prison. The elder was convicted in the 1978 killing of an Israeli bus driver, but released in a 2011 prisoner deal with Hamas. Fakhri Barghouti was waiting at the Ramallah Cultural Palace when his son arrived on Saturday — the first time they had met outside of prison since 1978. They were both tearful, but smiling, as Shadi Barghouti knelt upon seeing his father.

Neither Barghouti should have been released. Note that this clan is very involved in terrorism: Marwan, Abdullah, Nael, Omar, among many others.
But shady Shadi Barghouti is not nearly as bad as the next guy:

Another released Hamas militant, Iyad Abu Shkhaydem, now 50, had been serving 18 life sentences, in part for planning the 2004 bombings of two buses in Beersheba, in central Israel, that killed 16 people.

Ridiculous that somebody like this would even be considered for release.

 

[TomC]

" In a statement on the hostage release, Hamas said, “This confirms that our people and their resistance have the upper hand.”

Yet there are still people, including posters on this forum, who don't believe that Hamas represents the bulk of Gazans. They don't believe that Gazans, as a whole, support the leadership that keeps them in poverty and violence. That Palestinians would prefer peace and prosperity over their violent anti-Zionist ideology.

They obviously don't.
Tom

 

[Shadowy Man]

" In a statement on the hostage release, Hamas said, “This confirms that our people and their resistance have the upper hand.”

Yet there are still people, including posters on this forum, who don't believe that Hamas represents the bulk of Gazans. They don't believe that Gazans, as a whole, support the leadership that keeps them in poverty and violence. That Palestinians would prefer peace and prosperity over their violent anti-Zionist ideology.

They obviously don't.
Tom

Your logic doesn’t follow that because Hamas uses the words “our people” that it necessarily means that the Gazans “as a whole” believe in all that Hamas is doing.

That’s like saying that because Trump said “everyone likes” his Gaza plan that means that everyone likes his Gaza plan.

I’m not saying that Gazans don’t all follow Hamas just that it doesn’t follow from Hamas simply saying so.

 

[laughing dog]

" In a statement on the hostage release, Hamas said, “This confirms that our people and their resistance have the upper hand.”

Yet there are still people, including posters on this forum, who don't believe that Hamas represents the bulk of Gazans. They don't believe that Gazans, as a whole, support the leadership that keeps them in poverty and violence. That Palestinians would prefer peace and prosperity over their violent anti-Zionist ideology.

They obviously don't.
Tom

How does Hamas’s self serving statement show anything about the bulk of Gazans?

 

[TomC]

I’m not saying that Gazans don’t all follow Hamas just that it doesn’t follow from Hamas simply saying so.

It isn't just that Hamas says so.

It's that after 20 years in power, Gazans don't express any interest in changing the leadership. It's that after choosing to invest in a massive military, instead of infrastructure, Gazans still support Hamas. Even though Hamas built a bunch of that military installations under civilian infrastructure (like hospitals and apartment buildings) Gazans still support Hamas. That human shields tactic resulted in thousands of civilian deaths, but Gazans still support Hamas.

Lemme know when there's any meaningful opposition to the policies and choices made by the Gazans Who Matter (aka Hamas and their supporters) and I will support them.
So far, even the UN doesn't know about any.

I certainly don't.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

I’m not saying that Gazans don’t all follow Hamas just that it doesn’t follow from Hamas simply saying so.

It isn't just that Hamas says so.

It's that after 20 years in power, Gazans don't express any interest in changing the leadership. It's that after choosing to invest in a massive military, instead of infrastructure, Gazans still support Hamas. Even though Hamas built a bunch of that military installations under civilian infrastructure (like hospitals and apartment buildings) Gazans still support Hamas. That human shields tactic resulted in thousands of civilian deaths, but Gazans still support Hamas.

Lemme know when there's any meaningful opposition to the policies and choices made by the Gazans Who Matter (aka Hamas and their supporters) and I will support them.
So far, even the UN doesn't know about any.

I certainly don't.
Tom

There really is no way to ascertain who or what Gazans support now. Especially from afar.

Perhaps if you produced evidence from the past instead of regurgitated bile, your claim is unconvincing.

 

[TomC]

There really is no way to ascertain who or what Gazans support now. Especially from afar.

Sure there is.
Read the news

Look for evidence that Gazans and Hamas are noticably different.

I see no reason to believe it. Feel free to produce evidence that Gazans don't support Hamas and their agenda.
Tom

 

[crazyfingers]

Feel free to produce evidence that Gazans don't support Hamas and their agenda.

Didn't he just say that he doesn't think that there is a way to determine that at this time?

 

[TomC]

Feel free to produce evidence that Gazans don't support Hamas and their agenda.

Didn't he just say that he doesn't think that there is a way to determine that at this time?

I can produce evidence.

It's right out there in front of God and everyone. Look at the news.
Tom

 

[Shadowy Man]

Feel free to produce evidence that Gazans don't support Hamas and their agenda.

Didn't he just say that he doesn't think that there is a way to determine that at this time?

I think maybe Tom is looking for things like Gazans protesting, marching the streets with anti-Hamas signs, etc. maybe

 

[Arctish]

I’m not saying that Gazans don’t all follow Hamas just that it doesn’t follow from Hamas simply saying so.

It isn't just that Hamas says so.

It's that after 20 years in power, Gazans don't express any interest in changing the leadership. It's that after choosing to invest in a massive military, instead of infrastructure, Gazans still support Hamas. Even though Hamas built a bunch of that military installations under civilian infrastructure (like hospitals and apartment buildings) Gazans still support Hamas. That human shields tactic resulted in thousands of civilian deaths, but Gazans still support Hamas.

Lemme know when there's any meaningful opposition to the policies and choices made by the Gazans Who Matter (aka Hamas and their supporters) and I will support them.
So far, even the UN doesn't know about any.

I certainly don't.
Tom

You are suggesting Hamas openly built military installations and invited public participation in deciding where to place them. That's absurd.

The Gazans knew Hamas was digging tunnels. So did everyone who was paying attention. Those tunnels were a vital economic lifeline when Israel was keeping the border crossings closed. Just ask Derec. He used to mock Gazans for bringing sheep through them. I'm sure he can find those old pictures and posts.

It's unlikely more than a handful of the general public knew exact locations of any of the tunnels or how much material was used to build one. It's unlikely that material could have been used to build something above ground without running the risk it would have been destroyed and the chance to build something useful out of it, lost.

But that reality doesn't fit the narrative that the Gazans, most of whom are children, knew exactly what was happening and had the wherewithall to stop Hamas in its tracks. And as we have seen, fairy tales and just-so stories are, to some folks, more believable than substantiated facts.

 

[TomC]

Feel free to produce evidence that Gazans don't support Hamas and their agenda.

Didn't he just say that he doesn't think that there is a way to determine that at this time?

I think maybe Tom is looking for things like Gazans protesting, marching the streets with anti-Hamas signs, etc. maybe

I'm looking for anything remotely like Gazans opposing vicious Islamic terrorists, like the ones they support in their own place.
I'm not seeing any.
Tom

 

[TomC]

You are suggesting Hamas openly built military installations and invited public participation in deciding where to place them. That's absurd.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.
Lemme know when you noticed Gazans opposing the Hamas policies. I've never seen it.
Tom

 

[Arctish]

You are suggesting Hamas openly built military installations and invited public participation in deciding where to place them. That's absurd.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.
Lemme know when you noticed Gazans opposing the Hamas policies. I've never seen it.
Tom

Did you look?

Hamas faces growing public dissent as Gaza war erodes support

‘They’re dragging us to destruction’: the Gazans who oppose Hamas

Hamas has never been all that popular in Gaza. This is from 2014:

Gaza Public Rejects Hamas, Wants Ceasefire

The fairy tale version of the story is the one where unarmed civilians, most of them children, can stage a popular uprising against a terrorist organization, and win. The reality is that Hamas has the upper hand and is unlikely to relinquish it without a great deal of bloodshed. The lack of violent street protests (and never mind how much Israel freaks out whenever Palestinians gather in mass protests) does not mean the people of Gaza want Hamas to rule over them.

 

[laughing dog]

There really is no way to ascertain who or what Gazans support now. Especially from afar.

Sure there is.
Read the news

If it is so readily available, it should be easy for you to post a link.

 

[laughing dog]

You are suggesting Hamas openly built military installations and invited public participation in deciding where to place them. That's absurd.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.
Lemme know when you noticed Gazans opposing the Hamas policies. I've never seen it.
Tom

Perhaps you should try opening your eyes.
Gazan anger at Hamas grows as war drags
Hamas is losing the backing of Gazans

Are just two articles I found by Googling "Gazans Against Hamas". Both are from last summer. This and more is readily available to anyone who actually wishes to have some idea what is going on.

I don't pretend to claim what Gazans want or what they are willing to do. It is abundantly clear that neither do you. And it is abundantly clear you cannot even be bothered to even test your own beliefs.

 

[bilby]

Citizens of democracies often seem to struggle to grasp just how little public opinion matters in totalitarian regimes.

The history of US foreign policy is a litany of disastrous ventures that foundered on the mistaken belief that the opinions of the people of a country could influence the rulers of that country.

Even today, we see efforts to sway Russian public opinion against Putin, as though Putin would give crap the first what the public's opinion of him is. He doesn't. As long as he can suppress dissent, he couldn't care less how much of it there is - and history tells us that revolution and overthrow of dictators requires a great deal more than a few disgruntled citizens in order to occur.

Hamas don't need majority support from Palestinians. They don't have to face elections; If they have the support of a tiny minority, then that's enough to keep them in power. Even if four out of five of "their people" hate their guts.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Feel free to produce evidence that Gazans don't support Hamas and their agenda.

Didn't he just say that he doesn't think that there is a way to determine that at this time?

I think maybe Tom is looking for things like Gazans protesting, marching the streets with anti-Hamas signs, etc. maybe

I'm looking for anything remotely like Gazans opposing vicious Islamic terrorists, like the ones they support in their own place.

Where/how would you look exactly? Also, with Hamas in control of the area, are you suggesting Hamas would have a free and open press?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Well, there will always be a few poorly informed people supporting a cause fallaciously. See, for example, the recently renamed “Arab Americans for Trump”.

Why wouldn't a conservative community in USA support Trump? I don't find that weird in the least

It seems you may not have enough information to adequately comment on that situation if that is your take.

I'm not sure you are aware, but plenty of Arabs are well aware of the problems in Middle-Eastern culture. Many Arabs moved from the Middle-East, specifically to get away from it. Its just that liberal Arabs are, by western standards, way way far out on the extreme right. I have a hard time believing any Arab immigration would ever vote Democrat. They're just too extreme. But that’s just my impression.

Biden won Dearborn Michigan, where that “Arab Americans for Trump” group was, with 69% of the vote in 2020. So they did indeed vote democrat, despite your difficulties believing that. Then, they were disappointed in how Biden dealt with the Palestinian issue so as a protest they decided to support Trump. But now that they realize that Trump would be a disaster for their cause, a fact that should have been extremely obvious prior to the election, they are feeling betrayed.

So, that’s the actual situation I am referring to, not an “impression” of the situation.

And anyway my point was that those Arab Americans were among a “few poorly informed people supporting a cause fallaciously. ” any trivial observation of Trump would show that he would be far worse for their cause than Harris but they (like so many others) would rather play politics with the Palestinians rather than do what would be best for them.

I don't trust American ethnic statistics. Because they tend to focus on ethniticity. Ie, the less interesting data. As if our cultural behaviour is primarily influenced by genetics. Not on which country someone has lived in and for how long. Its also a factor within which community people live in their new country.

Every election is about trying to figure out which candidate is the least bad. They all suck

 

[Shadowy Man]

Every election is about trying to figure out which candidate is the least bad. They all suck

well, the Arab Americans in Dearborn may not be single issue voters but they did make a big deal about the Gaza situation during the democratic primary.

If they really did care mostly about that issue (which I will admit may not be the case) then it would clearly be that Harris was the least bad.

And that’s not just hindsight speaking.