Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[TomC]

Palestinians aren't being killed because Israel wants to wipe out Palestinians. They're being killed because Hamas, knowing they have no hope of exterminating the Jews like they wished they could, went ahead and attacked Israel, full well knowing what the consequences would be.

Strange. You are saying the Israelies have no choice in the matter, they are automatons simply running the program provided to them by Hamas.

Nonsense.
He's pointing out that that the Israelis are the victims here. They are responding to a vicious attack. The Gazan casualties are entirely the result of the policies and choices made by the Gaza leadership.

The bold-faced part is counterfactual. The Israelis are victims of Hamas terrorism. But the gov't of Israel made choices on how to react and how to conduct its military actions. Gazan civilians are victims of Hamas terrorism, and the policy and military choices of Israel.

Nope.
Israel has responded to attacks from Gaza. That Gazans have used human shields tactics isn't a policy or choice of Israel.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Jews are a particularly sticky wicket.

That was my point.
A sticky, militaristic wicket.

Why do you add militaristic?
Leaving out the defense against violent attacks, what militaristic behavior are you referring to? I don't see much.
Tom

What you don’t see, forms the basis of your position.
I think you’d “see” it with great clarity if you’d been living as an Arab in Gaza or the West Bank for the last 15+ years.

Give me an example from the last 15 years.

Then consider the militaristic behavior of Israel's Muslim neighbors since May of 48, and see if you can understand the comparison.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

They are responding to a vicious attack!!

(Which happened 500 days ago, and killed 1200, plus 251 kidnapped)

How long does this serve as excuse for continuing kill tens or hundreds of thousands of defenseless civilians?

Is 40:1 an acceptable ratio of deaths, or does it have to go up to over a hundred dead Arabs per dead or kidnapped Jew?

 

[bilby]

What I cannot look past is how the governments of the civilized world routinely stand against us on Israel/Palestine issues in the UN. Even our best bud GB, abstain as they oftentimes do end up on the other side of these issues.

Indeed.

When everyone, even your friends, tell you that your position regarding a third party is wrong, then it's a pretty good bet that your position is wrong.

The US supports Israel almost unconditionally and without thinking much about it, because winning elections in the US depends on the support of (or at least, avoiding too much opposition from) the Jewish voting bloc.

The UK position tends to be more nuanced, and tries to balance the pursuit of peace and compliance with international law, with national interest (particularly their interest in maintaining good relations with the USA).

When the rest of the civilised world stands against you, it's possible that your nation is the solitary voice of reason in an irrational world. But given that your nation elected DJT as President, twice, I would not rate that possibility very highly.

 

[laughing dog]

Palestinians aren't being killed because Israel wants to wipe out Palestinians. They're being killed because Hamas, knowing they have no hope of exterminating the Jews like they wished they could, went ahead and attacked Israel, full well knowing what the consequences would be.

Strange. You are saying the Israelies have no choice in the matter, they are automatons simply running the program provided to them by Hamas.

Nonsense.
He's pointing out that that the Israelis are the victims here. They are responding to a vicious attack. The Gazan casualties are entirely the result of the policies and choices made by the Gaza leadership.

The bold-faced part is counterfactual. The Israelis are victims of Hamas terrorism. But the gov't of Israel made choices on how to react and how to conduct its military actions. Gazan civilians are victims of Hamas terrorism, and the policy and military choices of Israel.

Nope.
Israel has responded to attacks from Gaza. That Gazans have used human shields tactics isn't a policy or choice of Israel.
Tom

Hamas's tactics are not a policy or choice of Israel. How and to what degree Israel deals with the human shield problem is tactical choice they make. Your implication that Israel has no choice but to behave exactly how they act is nonsense. One can approve of Israel's reactions without denying that Israel makes a choice. Your denial of the obvious demeans your position.

 

[Elixir]

Jews are a particularly sticky wicket.

That was my point.
A sticky, militaristic wicket.

Why do you add militaristic?
Leaving out the defense against violent attacks, what militaristic behavior are you referring to? I don't see much.
Tom

What you don’t see, forms the basis of your position.
I think you’d “see” it with great clarity if you’d been living as an Arab in Gaza or the West Bank for the last 15+ years.

Give me an example from the last 15 years.

Then consider the militaristic behavior of Israel's Muslim neighbors since May of 48, and see if you can understand the comparison.
Tom

I understand that 40:1 is not justice, or in any way justifiable.
Even the perverse “eye for an eye” dynamic you ostensibly put forth, in no way justifies indiscriminately killing 40+ Arabs for every Jew that was killed or captured 500 days ago by a few dozen radicals that BIBI WAS WARNED ABOUT and ignored.
How long do you think that excuse is good for?
When the ratio goes to 100:1 or 10,000 :1 will you be “satisfied”?

 

[TomC]

They are responding to a vicious attack!!

(Which happened 500 days ago, and killed 1200, plus 251 kidnapped)

How long does this serve as excuse for continuing kill tens or hundreds of thousands of defenseless civilians?

Is 40:1 an acceptable ratio of deaths, or does it have to go up to over a hundred dead Arabs per dead or kidnapped Jew?

The violence by Gazans is ongoing. They are still holding kidnapped hostages. It didn't end on the day it started.

The violence could end tomorrow, if Gazans gave up on terrorists as leadership and released the hostages. But they don't want to do that. How many deaths will Gazan leadership demand before deciding on the peace and prosperity that would come with cooperation with Israel, instead of backing ethnic cleansing of Israel?
Tom

 

[Elixir]

2000 total dead Israelis out of 9 and a half million is 0.021% of the population and does not constitute “ethnic cleansing”, but nice try at harnessing a toxic buzzword.

OTOH, 40,000 out of 2.1 million is almost 2% of the Gaza population. So Israel is 100x more culpable for “ethnic cleansing” than is Hamas.

Thanks for swallowing your own poison pill.

I understand that Israelis are terrified by Hamas’ expressed intent to wipe them out. We have long since seen that no such capability exists. But the excuse for continued genocide continues.

 

[TomC]

OTOH, 40,000 out of 2.1 million is almost 2% of the Gaza population. So Israel is 100x more culpable for “ethnic cleansing” than is Hamas.

Sorry, I apply a bunch more rational thinking than that.
All the dead Gazans are the victims of Gazans. The only reason they died is because Gazans support Islamic terrorists as much as they do.

Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Jebus! I just went from the Trump Gaza thread to this thread (about Biden and what we felt he could have done better)... and it is the same derail.

 

[laughing dog]

OTOH, 40,000 out of 2.1 million is almost 2% of the Gaza population. So Israel is 100x more culpable for “ethnic cleansing” than is Hamas.

Sorry, I apply a bunch more rational thinking than that.
All the dead Gazans are the victims of Gazans. The only reason they died is because Gazans support Islamic terrorists as much as they do.

Tom

Your 2nd sentence rebuts your 1st sentence.

 

[TomC]

OTOH, 40,000 out of 2.1 million is almost 2% of the Gaza population. So Israel is 100x more culpable for “ethnic cleansing” than is Hamas.

Sorry, I apply a bunch more rational thinking than that.
All the dead Gazans are the victims of Gazans. The only reason they died is because Gazans support Islamic terrorists as much as they do.

Tom

Your 2nd sentence rebuts your 1st sentence.

Lemme know when Gazan leadership stops using Gazans for human shields and releases the Israeli victims.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

OTOH, 40,000 out of 2.1 million is almost 2% of the Gaza population. So Israel is 100x more culpable for “ethnic cleansing” than is Hamas.

Sorry, I apply a bunch more rational thinking than that.
All the dead Gazans are the victims of Gazans. The only reason they died is because Gazans support Islamic terrorists as much as they do.

Tom

Your 2nd sentence rebuts your 1st sentence.

Lemme know when Gazan leadership stops using Gazans for human shields and releases the Israeli victims.
Tom

Right now, Gazan leadership is not using anyone as a "human shield" because there is a cease fire. The release of Israeli victims proceeds on schedule. Now that you are up to date, do you have another example of your "more rational" thinking?

 

[TomC]

Right now, Gazan leadership is not using anyone as a "human shield" because there is a cease fire.

Yes! They are. Until they end the kidnapping from October 23, they are still using people as human shields.
Apparently, you don't think that Israeli victims of Gazan terrorism matter.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Palestinians aren't being killed because Israel wants to wipe out Palestinians. They're being killed because Hamas, knowing they have no hope of exterminating the Jews like they wished they could, went ahead and attacked Israel, full well knowing what the consequences would be.

Strange. You are saying the Israelies have no choice in the matter, they are automatons simply running the program provided to them by Hamas.

Seriously? I don't even know where to begin, so I won't.

Sometimes when your ideas are challenged it is difficult to logically argue your point, but you should make some effort. While I intend to be a little snarky, it's also true. Lurkers are reading your points and claims you make. If you cannot defend them when challenged, they wonder about the credibility of your claims to begin with.

 

[laughing dog]

Right now, Gazan leadership is not using anyone as a "human shield" because there is a cease fire.

Yes! They are. Until they end the kidnapping from October 23, they are still using people as human shields.

Are you referring to the Oct. 7 kidnapping? If not, please provide a link to the one to which you refer.

Assuming you mean Oct. 7, since there is a cease fire, calling the hostages shields seems more like tortured logic. But, unlike your previous posts, it does have the semblance of being tethered to reality, so I stand correct.

Apparently, you don't think that Israeli victims of Gazan terrorism matter.
Tom

Is this yet another ironic example of "more rational thinking" ?

 

[ZiprHead]

General Gaza vs Israel posts have been moved to here. This thread is for the subject of Trump, Gaza, and the Middle East.

I know it's difficult to not get derailed but please try. Thanks.

 

[Tigers!]

Palestinians aren't being killed because Israel wants to wipe out Palestinians. They're being killed because Hamas, knowing they have no hope of exterminating the Jews like they wished they could, went ahead and attacked Israel, full well knowing what the consequences would be.

Strange. You are saying the Israelies have no choice in the matter, they are automatons simply running the program provided to them by Hamas.

Nonsense.
He's pointing out that that the Israelis are the victims here. They are responding to a vicious attack. The Gazan casualties are entirely the result of the policies and choices made by the Gaza leadership.

The bold-faced part is counterfactual. The Israelis are victims of Hamas terrorism. But the gov't of Israel made choices on how to react and how to conduct its military actions. Gazan civilians are victims of Hamas terrorism, and the policy and military choices of Israel.

IYHO how should the Israeli gov't reacted to Oct 7?

 

[Tigers!]

I understand that Israelis are terrified by Hamas’ expressed intent to wipe them out. We have long since seen that no such capability exists. But the excuse for continued genocide continues.

In 1933 (and earlier and beyond) the Nazis expressed their intent about the Jews. They did not have the capability then but a decade later we are well aware what happened.
Just because Hamas cannot do it now is not evidence that they will never achieve it.

 

[Arctish]

Palestinians aren't being killed because Israel wants to wipe out Palestinians. They're being killed because Hamas, knowing they have no hope of exterminating the Jews like they wished they could, went ahead and attacked Israel, full well knowing what the consequences would be.

Strange. You are saying the Israelies have no choice in the matter, they are automatons simply running the program provided to them by Hamas.

Nonsense.
He's pointing out that that the Israelis are the victims here. They are responding to a vicious attack. The Gazan casualties are entirely the result of the policies and choices made by the Gaza leadership.

This would only be true if there were no Gazan casualties in the months before the terrorist attack in October 2023. That's simply not true.

Israel and the Palestinians have been at war for decades. At times the fighting dies down and the death toll is hundreds over the course of a year, not thousands in a month, but nevertheless it is an on-going conflict. There have been ceasefires that last for a while, but no treaties or permanent resolutions that would end the warfare.

That's the part that keeps getting handwaved away. Virtually every casualty is a direct result of Gaza being run by violent Muslim terrorists, including the deaths of the human shields.
Tom

The history of the conflict is what keeps being hand waved away. The October 2023 terrorist attack was a shock, but it didn't come out of nothing and nowhere. It was part of an on-going conflict that has claimed thousands of lives over decades, most of them civilians.

If people don't know or can't acknowledge why Israelis and Palestinians are literally fighting to the death in that part of the world, they wouldn't recognize a viable peace plan if it was presented on a silver platter by the Buddha himself.

Ultimately the fight is over wealth and power: the wealth that comes from control of the best agricultural land, aquifers, mineral deposits, and the ability to transport goods to markets, and the power that comes from military might and allies. Racism and religious bigotry plays a central role, but IMO if the Zionists had settled in less valuable, less inhabited lands, there would be less fighting over it.