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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Gazans wouldn't be okay with it.
Under Hamas’ authoritarian control, dissent is dangerous. Civilians may remain silent despite opposing the human shield tactic.

Expressing criticism could be more dangerous than serving as a human shield.
The total sentiment of Gazans is impossible for you or I to ascertain, even if their preferences had any influence over events.
I agree with all of that.
Muslim terrorists are impossible to reason with, they'll kill anybody who is dispensable.

That's who the Israelis are defending themselves against. Muslim terrorists who are impossible to reason with because they are tribal supremacists and kill without regard. Even their own people!
Tom
 
Muslim terrorists are impossible to reason with, they'll kill anybody who is dispensable.
Nobody south of Muhammad seems to be indispensable.
That's who the Israelis are defending themselves against. Muslim terrorists who are impossible to reason with because they are tribal supremacists and kill without regard. Even their own people!
I know, it’s disgusting. Israel is becoming their mirror image in that regard, except that they assign a much higher value to Jewish lives. The REAL ideological high ground if there is any, is that Israelis are allowed to say what they’re for or against.
Unfortunately, only a slight majority of them favor peace, and it will take a large majority to create it.
 
Nobody south of Muhammad seems to be indispensable.
What the fuck does that mean?
Tom
They don't value any human's life. Not even their own. It's all about afterlife and The Prophet.
Yeah!
Exactly!

And the Jewish refugees are trying to defend themselves from the terrorists who "don't value any human's life. Not even their own."

How does anyone defend themselves against a violent enemy like that? When they live right next door. And the the international community supports the violent Muslim terrorists?
Tom
 
The international community does not support Hamas, Tom, or terrorists. The outrage over what happened in Gaza is not because terrorists died. And you know that, too. So why are you writing what you're writing? I think you should take a long hard look in a mirtor, and ask what kind of world you want to live in. Is it one where you are held personally responsible for the worst actions taken by others of your race, to the point of your own blood being spilled to pay for their crimes? If not, and I'm assuming that would be your answer, then pushing racist ideologies is a self-defeating game.
 
Most people just want Israel to stop killing Palestinian civilians. This is absolutely a strawman argument.
Unfortunately, the GWM do not want that.
Or it would end, peacefully. But we all know that isn't going to happen. Because Hamas still has a couple million human shields to use.
Tom
It would end peacefully if the IWM (ZWM?) got onboard with Israel being a "multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity" and allowed the former residents to return and stopped displacing even more people.

The Return can happen slowly and in stages, so there's no reason to panic.
Will the Return include the Jews who has to leave their countries in the 1940s and 50s?
But the displacement of Palestinians in the West Bank to make way for even more settlers should end immediately. Obviously it's fueling the conflict and needs to stop.
Yes the settlements in the West Bank must be frozen in size and location for the time being. And no new ones begun.
 
Most people just want Israel to stop killing Palestinian civilians. This is absolutely a strawman argument.
Unfortunately, the GWM do not want that.
Or it would end, peacefully. But we all know that isn't going to happen. Because Hamas still has a couple million human shields to use.
Tom
It would end peacefully if the IWM (ZWM?) got onboard with Israel being a "multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity" and allowed the former residents to return and stopped displacing even more people.

The Return can happen slowly and in stages, so there's no reason to panic.
Will the Return include the Jews who has to leave their countries in the 1940s and 50s?

Are you asking if Jews should be allowed to return to the countries they left in the 1940s and 1950s, or if they should be allowed to emigrate to Israel? Or do you mean, would they be allowed to "Return" to a place where they never lived and their families haven't been for at least 400 years, and displace the indigenous Palestinians from families that have been living there all this time, because of a religious belief that a god gave the land to their ancestors back in the Bronze Age?

I think anyone whose family was forcibly displaced should be allowed to live where their families used to live if that's where they want to be, and compensated for their losses by the government that wronged them. If a religious or ethnic community was targeted for expulsion, the State or governing body that did it is responsible for their suffering, not some State of some other people living elsewhere. For example, the American citizens of Japanese ancestry who were forced into "relocation centers", should have their property restored and/or receive just and fair compensation for the loss and the hardships they were forced to endure. Canada and Mexico don't owe them a thing, because Canada and Mexico didn't force them into Manzanar, Minidoka, or any of the other internment camps.

If the family left in pursuit of opportunity elsewhere or to retain something they valued, like Algerian Jews who wanted to retain their French citizenship when Algeria was about to become an independent nation, they might be given extra consideration on their applications to return to where their grandparents used to live, but I don't think that should be an automatic granting of permission.

There is a tremendous difference between choosing to live elsewhere and being forced out at gunpoint.

But the displacement of Palestinians in the West Bank to make way for even more settlers should end immediately. Obviously it's fueling the conflict and needs to stop.
Yes the settlements in the West Bank must be frozen in size and location for the time being. And no new ones begun.

That is an extremely important first step. It is also very unlikely to happen while Netanyahu is Prime Minister.
 
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Most people just want Israel to stop killing Palestinian civilians. This is absolutely a strawman argument.
Unfortunately, the GWM do not want that.
Or it would end, peacefully. But we all know that isn't going to happen. Because Hamas still has a couple million human shields to use.
Tom
It would end peacefully if the IWM (ZWM?) got onboard with Israel being a "multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity" and allowed the former residents to return and stopped displacing even more people.

The Return can happen slowly and in stages, so there's no reason to panic.
Will the Return include the Jews who has to leave their countries in the 1940s and 50s?

Are you asking if Jews should be allowed to return to the countries they left in the 1940s and 1950s, or if they should be allowed to emigrate to Israel? Or do you mean, would they be allowed to "Return" to a place where they never lived and their families haven't been for at least 400 years, and displace the indigenous Palestinians from families that have been living there all this time, because of a religious belief that a god gave the land to their ancestors back in the Bronze Age?
These are the Jews to which I refer Jews forced out of Arab countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
I think anyone whose family was forcibly displaced should be allowed to live where their families used to live if that's where they want to be, and compensated for their losses by the government that wronged them. If a religious or ethnic community was targeted for expulsion, the State or governing body that did it is responsible for their suffering, not some State of some other people living elsewhere. For example, the American citizens of Japanese ancestry who were forced into "relocation centers", should have their property restored and/or receive just and fair compensation for the loss and the hardships they were forced to endure. Canada and Mexico don't owe them a thing, because Canada and Mexico didn't force them into Manzanar, Minidoka, or any of the other internment camps.

If the family left in pursuit of opportunity elsewhere or to retain something they valued, like Algerian Jews who wanted to retain their French citizenship when Algeria was about to become an independent nation, they might be given extra consideration on their applications to return to where their grandparents used to live, but I don't think that should be an automatic granting of permission.

There is a tremendous difference between choosing to live elsewhere and being forced out at gunpoint.
Agreed but it seems the right of return only applies to Palestinians, not Jews, nor other people.

There are millions upon millions of people who were forced to leave their homes since the start of the 20th C. (just to put a stake in the ground)
After WW1 there were many who were forced to move as new countries were formed and they were on the wrong size of the new borders
Millions changed home after the partition of British india into Pakistan and India.
Millions fled China after Mao became ruler.
Thousands fled Cuba after Castro took power.
Koreans headed north or south during and after the Korean war
Same as in Vietman
Hundreds of thousands of Greeks has to leave Asis Minor/ turkey after Ataturk became ruler of Turkey and teh end of the Greek-Turko war. They had been living there since before the Trojan War.
Millions had to move after the end of WW2.
And on it goes.
And of course the waves of Jews leaving Europe since the 1890s.

None of these are given the right of return. They are told 'Bad luck'.
The Palestinians seem to be special. Why is that?
 
Most people just want Israel to stop killing Palestinian civilians. This is absolutely a strawman argument.
Unfortunately, the GWM do not want that.
Or it would end, peacefully. But we all know that isn't going to happen. Because Hamas still has a couple million human shields to use.
Tom
It would end peacefully if the IWM (ZWM?) got onboard with Israel being a "multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity" and allowed the former residents to return and stopped displacing even more people.

The Return can happen slowly and in stages, so there's no reason to panic.
Will the Return include the Jews who has to leave their countries in the 1940s and 50s?

Are you asking if Jews should be allowed to return to the countries they left in the 1940s and 1950s, or if they should be allowed to emigrate to Israel? Or do you mean, would they be allowed to "Return" to a place where they never lived and their families haven't been for at least 400 years, and displace the indigenous Palestinians from families that have been living there all this time, because of a religious belief that a god gave the land to their ancestors back in the Bronze Age?
These are the Jews to which I refer Jews forced out of Arab countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
I think anyone whose family was forcibly displaced should be allowed to live where their families used to live if that's where they want to be, and compensated for their losses by the government that wronged them. If a religious or ethnic community was targeted for expulsion, the State or governing body that did it is responsible for their suffering, not some State of some other people living elsewhere. For example, the American citizens of Japanese ancestry who were forced into "relocation centers", should have their property restored and/or receive just and fair compensation for the loss and the hardships they were forced to endure. Canada and Mexico don't owe them a thing, because Canada and Mexico didn't force them into Manzanar, Minidoka, or any of the other internment camps.

If the family left in pursuit of opportunity elsewhere or to retain something they valued, like Algerian Jews who wanted to retain their French citizenship when Algeria was about to become an independent nation, they might be given extra consideration on their applications to return to where their grandparents used to live, but I don't think that should be an automatic granting of permission.

There is a tremendous difference between choosing to live elsewhere and being forced out at gunpoint.
Agreed but it seems the right of return only applies to Palestinians, not Jews, nor other people.

There are millions upon millions of people who were forced to leave their homes since the start of the 20th C. (just to put a stake in the ground)
After WW1 there were many who were forced to move as new countries were formed and they were on the wrong size of the new borders
Millions changed home after the partition of British india into Pakistan and India.
Millions fled China after Mao became ruler.
Thousands fled Cuba after Castro took power.
Koreans headed north or south during and after the Korean war
Same as in Vietman
Hundreds of thousands of Greeks has to leave Asis Minor/ turkey after Ataturk became ruler of Turkey and teh end of the Greek-Turko war. They had been living there since before the Trojan War.
Millions had to move after the end of WW2.
And on it goes.
And of course the waves of Jews leaving Europe since the 1890s.

None of these are given the right of return. They are told 'Bad luck'.
The Palestinians seem to be special. Why is that?
First, you conflate forced migration with voluntary migration in some cases. 2nd, bringing examples where the displaced peoples are dozens of generations removed is ridiculous.

More importantly, please point to a large group, who as a group, wish to return and want a right to return.

BTW, Jews have the right to return to Israel.
 
Most people just want Israel to stop killing Palestinian civilians. This is absolutely a strawman argument.
Unfortunately, the GWM do not want that.
Or it would end, peacefully. But we all know that isn't going to happen. Because Hamas still has a couple million human shields to use.
Tom
It would end peacefully if the IWM (ZWM?) got onboard with Israel being a "multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity" and allowed the former residents to return and stopped displacing even more people.

The Return can happen slowly and in stages, so there's no reason to panic.
Will the Return include the Jews who has to leave their countries in the 1940s and 50s?

Are you asking if Jews should be allowed to return to the countries they left in the 1940s and 1950s, or if they should be allowed to emigrate to Israel? Or do you mean, would they be allowed to "Return" to a place where they never lived and their families haven't been for at least 400 years, and displace the indigenous Palestinians from families that have been living there all this time, because of a religious belief that a god gave the land to their ancestors back in the Bronze Age?
These are the Jews to which I refer Jews forced out of Arab countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
I think anyone whose family was forcibly displaced should be allowed to live where their families used to live if that's where they want to be, and compensated for their losses by the government that wronged them. If a religious or ethnic community was targeted for expulsion, the State or governing body that did it is responsible for their suffering, not some State of some other people living elsewhere. For example, the American citizens of Japanese ancestry who were forced into "relocation centers", should have their property restored and/or receive just and fair compensation for the loss and the hardships they were forced to endure. Canada and Mexico don't owe them a thing, because Canada and Mexico didn't force them into Manzanar, Minidoka, or any of the other internment camps.

If the family left in pursuit of opportunity elsewhere or to retain something they valued, like Algerian Jews who wanted to retain their French citizenship when Algeria was about to become an independent nation, they might be given extra consideration on their applications to return to where their grandparents used to live, but I don't think that should be an automatic granting of permission.

There is a tremendous difference between choosing to live elsewhere and being forced out at gunpoint.
Agreed but it seems the right of return only applies to Palestinians, not Jews, nor other people.

The Right of Return applies to everyone who was forced out of someplace. Refugees have an internationally recognized Right to return to their former homes. They do not have a Right to live someplace else which is why, more often than not, refugees can't claim citizenship in the countries that host them.

I think that's where the disconnect in our conversation keeps happening.

Some folks say a "Right of Return" exists for Jews alone. This exclusive "Right" does not exist for people who have the same ancestors or are from the same homeland, but it does exist for converts to the Jewish faith as long as they received their religious instruction from an Orthodox rabbi. It's a religious belief masquerading as a human right.

Jews have as much right to live in the area around Jerusalem as non-Jews. Non-Jews have as much right to live in the area around Jerusalem as Jews. Their human rights are due to their humanity, not their religious affiliation.

There are millions upon millions of people who were forced to leave their homes since the start of the 20th C. (just to put a stake in the ground)
After WW1 there were many who were forced to move as new countries were formed and they were on the wrong size of the new borders
Millions changed home after the partition of British india into Pakistan and India.
Millions fled China after Mao became ruler.
Thousands fled Cuba after Castro took power.
Koreans headed north or south during and after the Korean war
Same as in Vietman
Hundreds of thousands of Greeks has to leave Asis Minor/ turkey after Ataturk became ruler of Turkey and teh end of the Greek-Turko war. They had been living there since before the Trojan War.
Millions had to move after the end of WW2.
And on it goes.
And of course the waves of Jews leaving Europe since the 1890s.

None of these are given the right of return. They are told 'Bad luck'.
The Palestinians seem to be special. Why is that?

As I said, there is a tremendous difference between choosing to live elsewhere and being forced out at gunpoint.

Your list includes a lot of people who voluntarily left one place to go live in another. Not everyone leaving someplace where they weren't safe, respected, or had an opportunity to prosper is a refugee. And no one has a "Right" to "Return" to a place they've never been, or where none of their ancestors have lived for the past 1,000 years or so. They most certainly don't have a "Right" to force the indigenous population to surrender their homes and farms to them.

Palestinians aren't special. They have the same human rights as everyone else, including the Right of Return if they're refugees and the Right to remain in their ancestral homeland.
 
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Most people just want Israel to stop killing Palestinian civilians. This is absolutely a strawman argument.
Unfortunately, the GWM do not want that.
Or it would end, peacefully. But we all know that isn't going to happen. Because Hamas still has a couple million human shields to use.
Tom
It would end peacefully if the IWM (ZWM?) got onboard with Israel being a "multiethnic democracy offering peace and prosperity" and allowed the former residents to return and stopped displacing even more people.

The Return can happen slowly and in stages, so there's no reason to panic.
Will the Return include the Jews who has to leave their countries in the 1940s and 50s?

Are you asking if Jews should be allowed to return to the countries they left in the 1940s and 1950s, or if they should be allowed to emigrate to Israel? Or do you mean, would they be allowed to "Return" to a place where they never lived and their families haven't been for at least 400 years, and displace the indigenous Palestinians from families that have been living there all this time, because of a religious belief that a god gave the land to their ancestors back in the Bronze Age?
These are the Jews to which I refer Jews forced out of Arab countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
I think anyone whose family was forcibly displaced should be allowed to live where their families used to live if that's where they want to be, and compensated for their losses by the government that wronged them. If a religious or ethnic community was targeted for expulsion, the State or governing body that did it is responsible for their suffering, not some State of some other people living elsewhere. For example, the American citizens of Japanese ancestry who were forced into "relocation centers", should have their property restored and/or receive just and fair compensation for the loss and the hardships they were forced to endure. Canada and Mexico don't owe them a thing, because Canada and Mexico didn't force them into Manzanar, Minidoka, or any of the other internment camps.

If the family left in pursuit of opportunity elsewhere or to retain something they valued, like Algerian Jews who wanted to retain their French citizenship when Algeria was about to become an independent nation, they might be given extra consideration on their applications to return to where their grandparents used to live, but I don't think that should be an automatic granting of permission.

There is a tremendous difference between choosing to live elsewhere and being forced out at gunpoint.
Agreed but it seems the right of return only applies to Palestinians, not Jews, nor other people.

There are millions upon millions of people who were forced to leave their homes since the start of the 20th C. (just to put a stake in the ground)
After WW1 there were many who were forced to move as new countries were formed and they were on the wrong size of the new borders
Millions changed home after the partition of British india into Pakistan and India.
Millions fled China after Mao became ruler.
Thousands fled Cuba after Castro took power.
Koreans headed north or south during and after the Korean war
Same as in Vietman
Hundreds of thousands of Greeks has to leave Asis Minor/ turkey after Ataturk became ruler of Turkey and teh end of the Greek-Turko war. They had been living there since before the Trojan War.
Millions had to move after the end of WW2.
And on it goes.
And of course the waves of Jews leaving Europe since the 1890s.

None of these are given the right of return. They are told 'Bad luck'.
The Palestinians seem to be special. Why is that?
First, you conflate forced migration with voluntary migration in some cases. 2nd, bringing examples where the displaced peoples are dozens of generations removed is ridiculous.

More importantly, please point to a large group, who as a group, wish to return and want a right to return.

BTW, Jews have the right to return to Israel.
Hey wait a minute, that doesn't sound like you suport terrorism. So why will the absolute liars claim you still do? 🤔
 
I guess that implies there are Gazans who don't matter. I can see now how the rampant carnage is justified in the minds of some people.
I did not come up with the term - it was used on this thread before my use of it.

In any case, it refers to Hamas and other allied terror group that make the decisions to attack Israel etc.
 
Whether you like it or not, the massive death and destruction at the direct hands of Muslim terrorists pales in comparison to the death and destruction of the Israeli response.
Which has a lot to do with tactics of Hamas and other terror groups to operate from civilian areas. For example, Mohammed Deif, one of the top Hamas commanders was operating out of a designated humanitarian zone (Al Mawasi). He even had large quantities of weapons/explosives at the site, judging from the large secondary explosion.
Yes, Hamas started this tragedy. But Israel is choosing how to end it.
There are not that many feasible options of how to deal with Hamas. If you have a better idea, please share. But be specific about how your idea would be effective in fighting Hamas.
 
Gay White Male?

Guy With Money?

Gram-Molecular Weight?

Grand Mexican Warlock?
Gazans Who Matter
Tom
I guess that implies there are Gazans who don't matter. I can see now how the rampant carnage is justified in the minds of some people.
I'm talking about the Gazans who don't matter to the Islamic authoritarian terrorists who run Gaza.
I'm not sure how much of the population qualifies. Apparently, a lot. That's why there's far more human shields than anti-Hamas Gazans.
Tom
 
Whether you like it or not, the massive death and destruction at the direct hands of Muslim terrorists pales in comparison to the death and destruction of the Israeli response.
Which has a lot to do with tactics of Hamas and other terror groups to operate from civilian areas. For example, Mohammed Deif, one of the top Hamas commanders was operating out of a designated humanitarian zone (Al Mawasi). He even had large quantities of weapons/explosives at the site, judging from the large secondary explosion.
True. And it has a lot to do with the tactics of the IDF as well.
Yes, Hamas started this tragedy. But Israel is choosing how to end it.
There are not that many feasible options of how to deal with Hamas. If you have a better idea, please share. But be specific about how your idea would be effective in fighting Hamas.
What do you mean by "feasible"? All I know is that within the Israeli defense establishment, there was disagreement over tactics from the beginning, ranging from less destructive to more destructive.
 
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