Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[laughing dog]

Any protests against Darfur would show that at least we are concerned about what us happening beyond the places that we habitually pay attention too. And it is bigger than just Darfur. All of Sudan in turmoil with fighting, rapine occuring all over.

What’s stopping you from publicly protesting?

 

[Tigers!]

Pity the west does not bother too much about violence between non-whites.

What sort of intervention do you propose?

I do not recall suggesting intervention.
But I see no protests in the streets here is Aust. or overseas deploring the deaths in Africa and wanting sanctions against whomever.
The uni students are not having lock-ins or lockouts about it.
UN does not seem particularly exercised by this unlike Gaza or Ukraine.

So you want for there to be student protests over the situation in Darfur? To what end?

Precisely the same end as to the protests about Gaza. End to the killings, destruction. Justice if possible.
(Oh an end to hate would be nice but that is a bridge too far.)

How much influence do you think the government of Darfur has on the Australian government and media?

That is the reason for ignoring the tragedy in Sudan? Its sad but we do not care about deaths in Africa unless non-whites are involved.

It's a rhetorical question. On the other hand the Israeli government has massive influence, and that is one of the things people protest about. Another issue is the troubles in Darfur are internal, whereas Israel is attacking another nation, just like Russia is attacking Ukraine, and in both cases the invader claims that the other is a part of their nation.

 

[Toni]

I largely agree with you ( minus seeing a lot of Americans hating Palestinians— not sure I agree) but I take issue with you calling this Netanyahu’s war: Hamas started this and could have ended it by releasing the hostages. So it is imo, wrong to blame all of this on Netanyahu. He’s despicable, yes. But Hamas does not have even a millimeter of high ground here. Both sides are despicable. Both sides are responsible for thousands of deaths and the starvation of hundreds of thousands. Both Netanyahu and Hamas need to go.

I agree with most of that, except the highlighted.

Why do you not agree with the embolded text?

Because I don't think releasing the hostages would have stopped the war.

I don’t think the war would still be going on if Hamas had released the hostages. The biggest reason is that Israel would not be able to claim any justification.

Killing over a thousand civilians would be their justification.

I also think the timing of the Hamas attack was chosen to disrupt American politics.

Just about any major event in Israel disrupts American politics.

Of course there would have been retaliation. Which, in more normal times would have forced Hamas to release the hostages and things would have petered out over time. I’m not claiming that this would have resolved tensions in Israel. I am saying that the continued fighting has something behind it other than Israel extracting revenge.

Why is this happening? Who is pulling the strings? This conflict has split the Democratic party and I believe crippled them so that they lost to Trump. Trump is neither smart enough or rich enough to have instigated this. Everyone knows that Trump does not keep his promises.

 

[Tigers!]

Pity the west does not bother too much about violence between non-whites.

What sort of intervention do you propose?

I do not recall suggesting intervention.
But I see no protests in the streets here is Aust. or overseas deploring the deaths in Africa and wanting sanctions against whomever.
The uni students are not having lock-ins or lockouts about it.
UN does not seem particularly exercised by this unlike Gaza or Ukraine.

So you want for there to be student protests over the situation in Darfur? To what end?

Precisely the same end as to the protests about Gaza. End to the killings, destruction. Justice if possible.
(Oh an end to hate would be nice but that is a bridge too far.)

So you are calling for student protests concerning Darfur?

Any protests against Darfur would show that at least we are concerned about what us happening beyond the places that we habitually pay attention too. And it is bigger than just Darfur. All of Sudan in turmoil with fighting, rapine occuring all over.

What’s stopping you from publicly protesting?

I contact newspapers, try to talk to the local MPs etc. but again blacks dying in Africa concerns so few.

 

[Tigers!]

But Hamas has stated their intent to do it over and over until all the Jews are dead. I see no need to "believe" it was attempted genocide when they proclaim it.

Intent is not outcome. Without the means to even come close to the your alleged outcome, it is not an actual attempt.

There is a legal doctrine of attempted murder. You do not have to be successful i.e. kill the victiom, to be guilty. So yes it is considered an actual attempt. Intent is the key not the outcome. The outcome is obviously important but it is not the only factor.

Attempted murder requires the means for the attempt: the perpetrators of Oct. 7 did not have the means. Nor did the perpetrators make the effort to attempt genocide.

The attack was horrific enough that it does not require such inane embellishment as to call it attempted genocide.

I have not called Hamas' attack attempted genocide. Others may have done so but not I.

No one said you did.

In post 10,065 it was your words of "inane embellishment as to call it attempted genocide" that I assume were in response to my post ergo I assume you were charging me with calling it attempted genocide.

 

[laughing dog]

What’s stopping you from publicly protesting?

I contact newspapers, try to talk to the local MPs etc. but again blacks dying in Africa concerns so few.

Very laudable but since those are not public protests in the vein of student protests, it doesn’t really answer the question satisfactorily.

 

[ZiprHead]

Pity the west does not bother too much about violence between non-whites.

What sort of intervention do you propose?

I do not recall suggesting intervention.
But I see no protests in the streets here is Aust. or overseas deploring the deaths in Africa and wanting sanctions against whomever.
The uni students are not having lock-ins or lockouts about it.
UN does not seem particularly exercised by this unlike Gaza or Ukraine.

So you want for there to be student protests over the situation in Darfur? To what end?

Precisely the same end as to the protests about Gaza. End to the killings, destruction. Justice if possible.
(Oh an end to hate would be nice but that is a bridge too far.)

So you are calling for student protests concerning Darfur?

Any protests against Darfur would show that at least we are concerned about what us happening beyond the places that we habitually pay attention too. And it is bigger than just Darfur. All of Sudan in turmoil with fighting, rapine occuring all over.

Are you out walking the streets with a sign? If not, your criticism of others rings hollow.

 

[laughing dog]

No one said you did.

In post 10,065 it was your words of "inane embellishment as to call it attempted genocide" that I assume were in response to my post ergo I assume you were charging me with calling it attempted genocide.

Your post defended the use of the term by someone else. You assumed incorrectly.

 

[bilby]

I also think the timing of the Hamas attack was chosen to disrupt American politics.

The timing was massively successful in distracting the US public from their then burgeoning support for Ukraine.

 

[Toni]

I also think the timing of the Hamas attack was chosen to disrupt American politics.

The timing was massively successful in distracting the US public from their then burgeoning support for Ukraine.

And was extremely effective at dividing the Democratic Party and delivering Trump the presidency.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Until these most blatant recent atrocities, I have sided with Israel against Muslim terrorists my whole life -- yes, that claim is just "my word against yours" -- but I can see shades of gray in between black and white.

The hatred so many Americans have for Palestinians is just disgusting. Natanyahu's latest war has killed at least 100,000 Palestinians -- likely much more when indirect deaths are included -- yet apologists for the war criminals complain that Israeli captives are being fed the same starvation diets as their captors.

Hamas doesn't claim nearly that many.

And Wikipedia is not a remotely credible source on things like this--functionally, they vote on the truth and that is not remotely a reliable way of establishing what's actually true. What they cite will say what it purports to, but that doesn't make it credible.

Take your first quote: "from three independent sources". There are zero independent sources as Hamas controls what's reported. And there are zero credible sources--I've been over this repeatedly with NHC. Israel pointed out ~4,000 cases (out of about 20,000 at the time they pointed it out) of seriously flawed data in the "Gaza" supposedly carefully verified death list. Anyone who supposedly verified the data and failed to note 20% of people were either dead (long before 10/7) or did not exist. Some of it is so bad I could see it was garbage without being able to read Arabic. How many of the "independent" sources caught the problem? None. Therefore there is no verification, period. (Israel was only pointing out flaws, they don't have a list of the dead.)

(Hamas eventually quietly removed most of them from the list--but did not make a corresponding reduction in the dead.)

And note the deception: "70% of the Palestinians killed in residential buildings or similar housing"--that doesn't mean 70% of the dead, merely of a subset of completely unknown size.

And you do not understand my point about 1948: The current conflict started in 1948, thus no event after that could possibly be the cause unless they have a time machine. On the day the war started what of the various things that have been blamed for the fighting existed? Exactly one: the existence of Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am glad that someone else apart from me thinks that events in the Horn of Africa and below Egypt might be worth considering.

The RSF have recently declared independence in the province of Darfur. The central government of Sudan, such as it is, is not impressed as is now claiming to right tominvade Darfur. The link Loren provided for Tigray can be magnified in Sudan.

Pity the west does not bother too much about violence between non-whites.

It's not even skin color. They are others, their fate gets ignored. But there are powerful propaganda agencies that keep pushing the Gaza story.

And it's certainly not the death toll as Gaza is small in comparison to the horrors across most of sub-Saharan Africa.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

(Not safe for humanity)

Mass rape, forced pregnancy and sexual torture in Tigray amount to crimes against humanity – report

Research documents ‘horrific and extreme’ attacks by Ethiopian and Eritrean forces and warns that impunity has meant such atrocities are expanding to new regions

www.theguardian.com

The URL sums it up quite well.

This is just one of the areas of ethnic cleansing in Africa. Nobody's even alleged such horrors by the IDF. (But we do have multiple reports of sexual exploitation by aid workers in Gaza.)

Speaks more to the indifference of the world to Africa.

Also, are you seriously trying to justify potentially illegal actions by referring to even worse actions by others? Or are you saying the whole world (or more importantly, anyone that disagrees with you) is anti-Semitic.

It has been 22 months since the massacre. The world turned their heads and gave Israel a blank check while looking the other way. Israel exhausted its 'do whatever you want' period of time. They are supposed to be coloring inside the lines now.

I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm pointing out the issue is being astroturfed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I largely agree with you ( minus seeing a lot of Americans hating Palestinians— not sure I agree) but I take issue with you calling this Netanyahu’s war: Hamas started this and could have ended it by releasing the hostages. So it is imo, wrong to blame all of this on Netanyahu. He’s despicable, yes. But Hamas does not have even a millimeter of high ground here. Both sides are despicable. Both sides are responsible for thousands of deaths and the starvation of hundreds of thousands. Both Netanyahu and Hamas need to go.

Except that starvation of hundreds of thousands isn't happening. Every "victim" Hamas manages to find turns out to have medical causes. And to the extent it exists at all it's because 90% of the aid was being diverted.

 

[ZiprHead]

The hatred so many Americans have for Palestinians is just disgusting. Natanyahu's latest war has killed at least 100,000 Palestinians -- likely much more when indirect deaths are included -- yet apologists for the war criminals complain that Israeli captives are being fed the same starvation diets as their captors.

Hamas doesn't claim nearly that many

This has already been explained to you, with links. Hamas only counts identified bodies. They don't count all those buried in the rubble of collapsed buildings.

And Wikipedia is not a remotely credible source on things like this

That figure doesn't come from wikipedia. It comes from the United Nations.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I never heard of “radical Islamic terrorists” or. “the Muslim threat” as a child.
But by the mid 1960s I was convinced that Israel would start the next world war, just from what I knew from reports and my father’s Jewish heritage.
Not much has changed other than terrorist designations and war crimes accusations. They’re (BOTH sides) still going at it, trying to rally everyone else into complicity in genocide.

Because you had to actually pay attention to world events, it wasn't thrust in your face. Back in the 70s we had a connection in Tel Aviv--airside only, we did not enter the country because my parents considered it unsafe because of the terrorism. But the terrorists hit the very room we had been in 3 days later. We stayed away from the dangerous places but I've seen quite a bit of the unpleasant side of the world.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I largely agree with you ( minus seeing a lot of Americans hating Palestinians— not sure I agree) but I take issue with you calling this Netanyahu’s war: Hamas started this and could have ended it by releasing the hostages. So it is imo, wrong to blame all of this on Netanyahu. He’s despicable, yes. But Hamas does not have even a millimeter of high ground here. Both sides are despicable. Both sides are responsible for thousands of deaths and the starvation of hundreds of thousands. Both Netanyahu and Hamas need to go.

I agree with most of that, except the highlighted.

The world would have made Israel stop if the fundamental reason for the war was removed.

Hamas was counting on hiding behind the propaganda, but they were so successful that parading the dead bodies hasn't been enough to protect them this time.

 

[ZiprHead]

I largely agree with you ( minus seeing a lot of Americans hating Palestinians— not sure I agree) but I take issue with you calling this Netanyahu’s war: Hamas started this and could have ended it by releasing the hostages. So it is imo, wrong to blame all of this on Netanyahu. He’s despicable, yes. But Hamas does not have even a millimeter of high ground here. Both sides are despicable. Both sides are responsible for thousands of deaths and the starvation of hundreds of thousands. Both Netanyahu and Hamas need to go.

I agree with most of that, except the highlighted.

The world would have made Israel stop if the fundamental reason for the war was removed.

How?

Most of the free world and a massive amount of Israelis want the war stopped now. Is it stopping?

Hundreds of thousands demonstrate in Tel Aviv at end of nationwide day of hostage protests

Hostages forum says 500,000 attended rally, over 1 million protested across the country Sunday; at rally, ex-captives urge Trump to push Israel to 'end the suffering, make peace'

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[laughing dog]

I largely agree with you ( minus seeing a lot of Americans hating Palestinians— not sure I agree) but I take issue with you calling this Netanyahu’s war: Hamas started this and could have ended it by releasing the hostages. So it is imo, wrong to blame all of this on Netanyahu. He’s despicable, yes. But Hamas does not have even a millimeter of high ground here. Both sides are despicable. Both sides are responsible for thousands of deaths and the starvation of hundreds of thousands. Both Netanyahu and Hamas need to go.

Except that starvation of hundreds of thousands isn't happening. Every "victim" Hamas manages to find turns out to have medical causes. And to the extent it exists at all it's because 90% of the aid was being diverted.

You are conflating your conjectures with fact.

The effects of the 3 month blockade of food and medicine by Israel has been documented by numerous NGOs in threads in which you participate. Malnutrition exacerbates medical issues, especially in children and the old.

You have seen a report of a study by Isreali military officers saying the UN program of aid is effective. And a report by USAID there is little evidence that aid diversion by Hamas is systemic.

Your credibility diminishes further with each mendacious response.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

(Not safe for humanity)

Mass rape, forced pregnancy and sexual torture in Tigray amount to crimes against humanity – report

Research documents ‘horrific and extreme’ attacks by Ethiopian and Eritrean forces and warns that impunity has meant such atrocities are expanding to new regions

www.theguardian.com

The URL sums it up quite well.

This is just one of the areas of ethnic cleansing in Africa. Nobody's even alleged such horrors by the IDF. (But we do have multiple reports of sexual exploitation by aid workers in Gaza.)

Speaks more to the indifference of the world to Africa.

Also, are you seriously trying to justify potentially illegal actions by referring to even worse actions by others? Or are you saying the whole world (or more importantly, anyone that disagrees with you) is anti-Semitic.

It has been 22 months since the massacre. The world turned their heads and gave Israel a blank check while looking the other way. Israel exhausted its 'do whatever you want' period of time. They are supposed to be coloring inside the lines now.

I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm pointing out the issue is being astroturfed.

The heck it is. I always think of the Nolte line in Hotel Rwanada, "You aren't even a nigger."

But thanks for ignoring the rest as you keep mounted on your hobby horse.