Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[DrZoidberg]

Dr Z is not paying attention to what each side is saying.

You mean all the disingenuous political plays being made?

Trump hyped his p[proposal as an agreement. Israel would withdraw, Hamas would disarm, and Gaza would a be administered by an international group led by .... wiai for it. .. Trump.

So what would you say the chances of this just being more Trump bullshit?

Netiquette later said Israel will not withdraw. For the Palestinins no Palestinian state run by Palestinians is a non starter.

Right now its run by Iran. So there’s that

Meanwhile Israel continues to colonize he West Bank.

Ok, reality check. In 1948 Jordan took the west bank and expelled all its Jews and sent them to Israel.

Israel took the west bank in 1667 in a defensive war. Didn’t expell the Palestinians. Didn’t give the Jews who had earlier been expelled their land back.

A gesture of good will. After this public opinion went back to hating Jews again.

At this point, why wouldn't they just settle the west bank with Jews. They used to live there. It can be argued putting it back to how it was prior to 1948.

Expending the settlements is not to expell any Palestinians

The extreme antisemitic filter that is being applied is... I was going to say bizarre. But its not. The west has a strong tradition of hating Jews. Because of the Bible. Why leftist secularists keep going with the antisemitism is so strange

The war may have been triggered bin part by hostage taking, but it is not about the aesthetes.

How do you explain all the peace between the wars, all of which were started by the Arabs?

That's an inconvenient fact

It is about Israeli Zionism and controlling all land they think was Israel 2000 years ago. Netanyahu said pu8bhlcaly they have a right to the land and will do whatever is in their own interest.

No, its not. Stop paroting racist propaganda. Its just such bullshit

The only thing that will stop the war is the USA cutting off arms supplies. Not likely. Obama increased military aid followed by Biden and now Trump.

Which will guarantee all the Jews being murdered. I don't think you quite understand what Israel is up against

Israel has launched several invasions and offensives into the Gaza Strip throughout its modern history, most recently and prominently following the October 7, 2023, attack by Hamas. Before that, the last major conflict was in 2014.

Gaza–Israel conflict - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Israel walled of Gaza and the West Bank. The coast is blockaded.

None of these were unprovoked. Rockets have continuously rained on Israel since 1948? Do think Israel should just keep taking it? Is that your position on this?

 

[steve_bank]

Netanyahu has said repeatedly in public the goal us the elimination of Hamas.

Hostages are a political talking point. Netanyahu is a skilled politician and propagandist. He knows how to play to American Christian conservatives. Israel is now part of Evangelical end times prophesies.

He is manipulating Trump..

In the end Gaza will be colonized.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Netanyahu has said repeatedly in public the goal us the elimination of Hamas.

Hostages are a political talking point. Netanyahu is a skilled politician and propagandist. He knows how to play to American Christian conservatives. Israel is now part of Evangelical end times prophesies.

He is manipulating Trump..

In the end Gaza will be colonized.

Of course Hamas needs to be eliminated. That’s a given.

Israel isn't a colonial power. Why are you using the term "colonized"?

Its the term antisemitic leftists are using in their propaganda to make Israel seem like colonisers. Native Americans aren't colonisers in America either. It would be weird and unseemly to accuse them of that. Don't you think?

 

[Derec]

In some parts of Georgia, Stalin is still worshipped as a God.

Perhaps by some people on the Emory campus ...

 

[Harry Bosch]

It appears that the war is coming close to an end, after almost 24 months after it was started:

MSN

It will be very good to see all the hostages returned home.

 

[Politesse]

I am not optimistic that any such agreement will hold. When has either Israel or Hamas demonstrated a capacity for fidelity to treaties, or promises made to foreign powers under duress?

 

[DrZoidberg]

It appears that the war is coming close to an end, after almost 24 months after it was started:

MSN

It will be very good to see all the hostages returned home.

What makes you think this isn't more of the same?

 

[DrZoidberg]

I am not optimistic that any such agreement will hold. When has either Israel or Hamas demonstrated a capacity for fidelity to treaties, or promises made to foreign powers under duress?

What agreements have Israel broken? Remember, Israel never saw the west bank as occupied by Israel. After the fall of the Ottoman empire Palestine, including the west bank, was under the British mandate. When the British mandate became Israel, that included the west bank. But in 1948 Jordan occupied the west bank. As far as Israel is concerned, Israel took it back in 1967, reaffirming the border established at the desillusion of the Ottoman empire in 1919.

International law sees the settlements as illegal. But not according to Israeli law. Which is the law that Israel is following. Yes, normally I would side with international law. But in this case, since the world is so antisemetic, I don't think it can be applied here. Jordans claim to the west bank is so weak it's non-existant IMHO. You can't just invade other countries willy nilly and expect it to be affirmed by international law. But that's what happened in the west bank case. Made extra serious since Jordan ethnically cleansed the west bank of Jews, when they took it. It's bizarre that the court in the Hague just accepted that. When Israel took the west bank back, they did not give the stolen land back to the Jews that once owned it.

The Muslim countries in the UN vote as a single block and systematically vote against Israel, no matter what. Violating the spirit of the UN voting system. There's no pro-Israel voting block. So the UN resolutions on Israel can all be ignored IMHO.

Apart of that agreement, which is not a clear cut case, what agreements have Israel broken?

I'm also not optimistic about this. Israel has as an absolute demand that Hamas is removed from power. While the Palestinian side is represented by Hamas at the negotiating table. Since Hamas doesn't care how many Palestinians die, Israel has zero leverage.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I could be wrong in this (please correct me if I am); but I don't believe that any Palestinian have stated that they would be willing to give up right of return, even when traded for a sovereign state.

They are not willing to surrender any of their Rights completely. It's unreasonable to expect that of any ethnic group, religious community, or segment of a population.

The Palestinian leadership have demonstrated a willingness to accept a token Return, though. Abbas was ready to compromise on Right of Return in 2008. Israeli PM Olmert offered to allow 5,000 to return. The Palestinians were offering to accept a number as low as 10,000, although some were pushing for a number as high as 60,000. That's still pretty paltry, btw, considering more than 750,000 people became refugees when Israel was founded. But it's anathema to people like Netanyahu who won't even concede that non-Jewish citizens of Israel are really citizens.

Anyway, the Right of Return was a condition of the recognition of the State of Israel so why should the Palestinians surrender it?

And why would anyone who isn't a racist have a problem with it?

And you have once again fallen for the lies.

Erekat responded to the publication of the leaks by stating that "any proposed agreement would have to gain popular support through a national referendum. No agreement will be signed without the approval of the Palestinian people."

In other words, no intent to actually deliver.

And your link about the right of return:

[T]he refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date,

And this condition has never been met. They refused to swear to live at peace.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

DR Z

If you do not understand Zionism you do not understand modern Israel.

Zionism is the Jewish belief that after 2000 years Jews today have a divine right based in the bible to the land that was Israel at the time of the Roman occupation.

Fundamentally, Zionism is saying to have a place safe from the pogroms and genocides.

They would like the whole area, but they would much prefer their piece and peace to the whole thing and war. But the reality is that peace is currently not on offer so they have no reason to oppose the settlers.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Welcome to the 1990s, Singapore.

Which of those requirements is unreasonable?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Fun fact, in 1948 Jordan expelled all Jews from the west bank, giving their land to Arabs.

Not-so-fun fact, in 1948 Zionists carried out Plan Dalet. They murdered and expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. The Transfer Committee of the Jewish Agency, led by Josef Weitz, decided which houses to destroy and which ones to "give" to immigrant Jews while the Irgun, Lehi, and Haganah militants kept the former residents out.

You still haven't established that they were expelled as opposed to leaving of their own accord to get out of the way of the coming war.

In 1967 Israel took the west bank. They didn't expell the Arabs to give it back to the Jews who used to live there.

So there really shouldn't be any problem, imho, with Jews settling on the west bank on land Arabs aren't using.

The Jews who were expelled have the Right of Return under international law. The Christian, Muslim, Druze, and other Palestinians who were expelled have the same Right for the same reason. So there really shouldn't be any problem with any of them settling in the places where they used to live.

And yet, here we are.

Because the Palestinians would not accept peaceful existence in Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Take comfort in the knowledge that people in that part of the world lived in peace with their neighbors in a multicultural society for 4 centuries before the events in the first half of the 20th century, and can do so again. There will always be haters but they won't always be the ones in charge.

Except that's not how it was. The problem is you are demanding documentation of the normal situation, something which is rarely preserved.

I can understand reluctance to return to some areas.

I understand the reluctance people have to return to places where they and their "kind" were treated badly.

I understand the desire to be surrounded by like-minded individuals in a mutually supportive society.

I understand the desire to acquire valuable property and to build a prosperous life.

But the means by which people create a society or acquire property matters. If those things are done in ways that are harmful to others, then the resulting anger, outrage, and fighting back are also understandable.

What you apparently do not understand is that they have a very real fear of genocide. Final Solution 2.0 and you can pretend you didn't expect it. Same as the MAGAs can pretend they didn't expect the horrors The Felon is inflicting.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The latest victim of the onslaught was this guy, Omar Hayek, killed on his way out of the city to a satellite clinic. He was waiting at a bus stop. I sure it was a fucking terrorist bus stop. Murderers! This is the fourteenth killing of an MSF staff member since they began operations in Gaza. You'd be safer as a soldier than you are as a doctor when Israel is on the march, at least soldiers get body armor and are allowed to shoot back.

We have one MSF member documented as Hamas.

And note that Israel has called for the evacuation of Gaza City. Everyone there is either Hamas or a human shield.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Dr Z is not paying attention to what each side is saying.

Trump hyped his p[proposal as an agreement. Israel would withdraw, Hamas would disarm, and Gaza would a be administered by an international group led by .... wiai for it. .. Trump.

I don't care what The Felon says.

Netiquette later said Israel will not withdraw. For the Palestinins no Palestinian state run by Palestinians is a non starter.

A state run by Hamas is a non-starter.

Meanwhile Israel continues to colonize he West Bank.

The war may have been triggered bin part by hostage taking, but it is not about the aesthetes.

It is about Israeli Zionism and controlling all land they think was Israel 2000 years ago. Netanyahu said pu8bhlcaly they have a right to the land and will do whatever is in their own interest.

The settlers are because Israel knows that they're irrelevant in the big picture and thus doesn't have the political will to stop them.

The only thing that will stop the war is the USA cutting off arms supplies. Not likely. Obama increased military aid followed by Biden and now Trump.

No, that will increase the death toll because they'll switch to cheaper, less precise weapons.

Israel walled of Gaza and the West Bank. The coast is blockaded.

But Israel doesn't control the border with Egypt. And blockade is perfectly legal in war--and the situation with Hamas has been quasi-war all along.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel strikes Gaza after Trump calls for stop to bombing

The attacks came after Hamas said it has agreed to release all Israeli hostages and expressed willingness to negotiate through mediators on Trump’s peace plan.

www.nbcnews.com

I don't see them releasing any hostages yet.

I see yet another attempt to make Israel make concessions (in this case, stop shooting) in exchange for talks. They've learned it's just a deception.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am not optimistic that any such agreement will hold. When has either Israel or Hamas demonstrated a capacity for fidelity to treaties, or promises made to foreign powers under duress?

When has Israel broken an agreement? Note that they should not be expected to be bound by an agreement already broken by the Palestinians.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

International law sees the settlements as illegal. But not according to Israeli law. Which is the law that Israel is following. Yes, normally I would side with international law. But in this case, since the world is so antisemetic, I don't think it can be applied here. Jordans claim to the west bank is so weak it's non-existant IMHO. You can't just invade other countries willy nilly and expect it to be affirmed by international law. But that's what happened in the west bank case. Made extra serious since Jordan ethnically cleansed the west bank of Jews, when they took it. It's bizarre that the court in the Hague just accepted that. When Israel took the west bank back, they did not give the stolen land back to the Jews that once owned it.

Gaza/West Bank should be a Palestinian state. But since Israel knows they gain nothing from stopping the settlements so they continue.

But by far most of the settlement is within areas already under Israeli control.

 

[laughing dog]

International law sees the settlements as illegal. But not according to Israeli law. Which is the law that Israel is following. Yes, normally I would side with international law. But in this case, since the world is so antisemetic, I don't think it can be applied here. Jordans claim to the west bank is so weak it's non-existant IMHO. You can't just invade other countries willy nilly and expect it to be affirmed by international law. But that's what happened in the west bank case. Made extra serious since Jordan ethnically cleansed the west bank of Jews, when they took it. It's bizarre that the court in the Hague just accepted that. When Israel took the west bank back, they did not give the stolen land back to the Jews that once owned it.

Gaza/West Bank should be a Palestinian state. But since Israel knows they gain nothing from stopping the settlements so they continue.

But by far most of the settlement is within areas already under Israeli control.

But not all. Which means Israel is breaking an agreement by breaking international law.

 

[Politesse]

I am not optimistic that any such agreement will hold. When has either Israel or Hamas demonstrated a capacity for fidelity to treaties, or promises made to foreign powers under duress?

When has Israel broken an agreement? Note that they should not be expected to be bound by an agreement already broken by the Palestinians.

You've answered your own question. Never, if you refuse to ever interpret anything they have done as a fault.