Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

Is there any evidence of missile launching platforms on the top of a hospital?

Not rooftop, but hospital grounds.
IDF releases footage of Hamas firing RPG from Gaza City hospital

I have seen reports of rockets being fired from the vicinity of hospitals and a report of one falling short of its target and hitting a hospital parking lot, but the reports that Hamas built missile launching pads on top of hospitals and the IDF allowed it, or at the very least failed to notice it, seems ludicrous.

Are you imagining that these rocket launchers are some kind of permanent setup? No, they are very simple and can be set up and dismantled quickly.

That second one looks a bit more substantial, yes. But notice that it was set up where children are playing.

 

[Derec]

Look at a regional map and look up the dimensions of the Gaza Strip.

Then look at the tonnage of high explosives dropped on that small area.

That just shows how careful IDF is to minimize civilian casualties. If the bombing was less discriminate, there'd be a lot more dead.

Compare to the HE tonnage dropped on Europe by the Brits and Americans on Europe in WWII.

Do you have those numbers? Let's also compare the casualty figures.
Powerful 2000 lbs bombs have been necessary to go after tunnels that Hamas has used in Gaza extensively.

For Israel it is shooing fish in a barrel.

Yes, often the locals were shooed away by warning them by phone or by means of small "roof knock" charges.

 

[Derec]

If you're going to use history to assert a claim by the State of Israel on that part of Palestine the least you can do is admit the Samaritans were subjugated by the Jews of the Kingdom of Judah who did not see them as equals or respect their religious beliefs.

Are you trying to claim that Palestinians are not Arab but Samaritan?

 

[Arctish]

I think even you would be ready to take up a shotgun if your neighbors kept cutting off your electricity and water supply. I know the people in my town would.

If the neighbors had been killing my kids for years and were currently holding a bunch hostage, I would consider shooting up their water and electricity a peaceful response.

I wouldn't give a whit about what their friends and relatives thought about it either. Especially since they were unwilling to help rescue the victims.
Tom

Your rhetorical question about which would have been more beneficial to Gazans, power and desalinization plants or massive military apparatus, completely ignored the reality of what happens to power and desalinization plants in Gaza. It was an Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

And now you're posting a justification for raids inside Israel.

Israel has been killing Palestinian kids for years. They are holding a bunch of people hostage (i.e. without charge in Israeli prisons). I'm sure there are plenty of Palestinians who consider shooting up Israel's power grid and water distribution network a peaceful response and wouldn't give a whit about what their friends and relatives thought about it either.

Would you buy what you're selling, Tom?

 

[Arctish]

If you're going to use history to assert a claim by the State of Israel on that part of Palestine the least you can do is admit the Samaritans were subjugated by the Jews of the Kingdom of Judah who did not see them as equals or respect their religious beliefs.

Are you trying to claim that Palestinians are not Arab but Samaritan?

No.

There are several distinct ethnic and religious communities in Palestine including, but not limited to, Sunni Muslims, Coptic Christians, Samaritans, the Yazidi, Druze, Palestinian Jews, and Jews descended from Ashkenazi and Sephardic immigrants. Muslim Palestinians of the northern agricultural areas like Galilee are culturally distinct from the Bedouin of the Negev. Calling them all "Arabs" is just Zionist-speak for "not-Jews".

If you're going to use an historic event like the defeat of the Samaritans as justification for Israel annexing Samaria today, you should probably do a little research into the history because otherwise you run the risk of sounding like you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[laughing dog]

Holding people against their will without charges on suspicion of terrorism and sometimes torturing them is “akin” to kidnapping.

How is this different from Gitmo?

And again, I have already shown why it is very different than the kidnappings by Gazan terrorists.

No, you didn’t. And bringing up Gitmo (a whataboutism) doesn’t help your case.

 

[ZiprHead]

I think even you would be ready to take up a shotgun if your neighbors kept cutting off your electricity and water supply. I know the people in my town would.

If the neighbors had been killing my kids for years and were currently holding a bunch hostage, I would consider shooting up their water and electricity a peaceful response.

I wouldn't give a whit about what their friends and relatives thought about it either. Especially since they were unwilling to help rescue the victims.
Tom

You do know the Palestinians could say the exact same thing.

 

[steve_bank]

I listened to a BBC episode in a series on how we got to the Gaza war today. I got a new perspective.

AI Overview
The Balfour Declaration was a public statement issued by the British government on November 2, 1917, during WWI. It pledged British support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people," while also stating that nothing should prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities.

The context in the day was that the Brits were eliciting Jewish support for the war. The declaration was intentionally ambiguous and did not guarantee any independent Jewish state. It did in the long term foster Jewish migration to Palestine.

Both the French and Brits were given governance of regains in the Mid East under the Segue Of Nations and had no real authority to settle issues.

The Brits floatedplans to move Arab populations and create a Jewish zone. Arabs got angry leading to a long bloody uprising., There was a lan to move Arabs to what was than Tranjordan.

Palestinians were on the short end from the start.

Jewish immigration was changing the demographics and Brits caped Jewish ingrain and l;an purchases by Jews. Jews got angy.

1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A popular uprising by Palestinian Arabs in Mandatory Palestine against the British administration, known as the Great Revolt,[a][10] and later the Great Palestinian Revolt[11] or the Palestinian Revolution,[c] lasted from 1936 until 1939. The movement sought independence from British colonial rule and the end of British support for Zionism, including Jewish immigration and land sales to Jews.[12]

.
Both Jews and Arabs had mi lira. Both sides conceited atrocities.

So again from the start it was about land.

One way to look at the conflict is a civil war that started under the British Mandate in Palestine. Yet to be resolved.

Despite what the Israeli government says, Jews/Israel have never been innocent victims in the conflict. As we speak Palestinians are pushed off land in he West Bank by Jewish colo0nists.

 

[Derec]

Your rhetorical question about which would have been more beneficial to Gazans, power and desalinization plants or massive military apparatus, completely ignored the reality of what happens to power and desalinization plants in Gaza. It was an Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

But that would not be happening without Hamas and other groups attacking Israel from Gaza.

Israel has been killing Palestinian kids for years.

Some actual children sadly die in warfare, especially when Hamas places military hardware in civilian areas. But even using Hamas MOH own data, a disproportionate number of dead minors are teenage males, and Hamas and other terror groups like to recruit minor teengers.

They are holding a bunch of people hostage (i.e. without charge in Israeli prisons).

Those are suspected terrorists held under administrative detention. And even in that case, a judge has to approve the detention, as well as any extension beyond six months. It should not be compared to kidnapping of random civilians, including babies, by using the term "hostage" for both.

 

[laughing dog]

Your rhetorical question about which would have been more beneficial to Gazans, power and desalinization plants or massive military apparatus, completely ignored the reality of what happens to power and desalinization plants in Gaza. It was an Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

But that would not be happening without Hamas and other groups attacking Israel from Gaza.

You cannot possibly know that for certain. It is likely not to happen, but look at what is happening in the West Bank.

 

[Derec]

Muslim Palestinians of the northern agricultural areas like Galilee are culturally distinct from the Bedouin of the Negev. Calling them all "Arabs" is just Zionist-speak for "not-Jews".

No, it's not "Zionist-speak", but your disparaging use of the term "Zionist" is noted.
Palestinians (some of whom are Christian btw.) in the north are more similar and related to Lebanese and Syrians, sure. And those in the Negev and Gaza are more similar and related to Egyptians and Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula (e.g. Saudis and Yemenis).
But if Lebanese and Egyptians etc. are all called "Arabs" in common discourse (and not just in "Zionist-speak" whatever that is supposed to mean among crypto-antisemites) then I do not see why Palestinian Arabs should not be called Arabs either. And note that Palestinian leaders tend to agree that there is no meaningful distinction between Palestinian Arabs and other Arabs.

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality, today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese.

Every Palestinian, in Gaza and throughout Palestine, can prove his Arab roots - whether from Saudi Arabia, from Yemen, or anywhere. We have blood ties. Personally, half my family is Egyptian. We are all like that. More than 30 families in Gaza are called Al-Masri. Brothers, half of the Palestinians are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis. Who are the Palestinians? We have many families called Al-Masri, whose roots are Egyptian. Egyptian! They may be from Alexandria, from Cairo, from Dumietta, from the North, from Aswan, from Upper Egypt. We are Egyptians. We are Arabs. We are Muslims. We are a part of you.

And many of these Arabs moved into what became Israel and Palestinian territories during the British Mandate. That's why even UNRWA only requires a two year residency between 1946 and 1948 to designate somebody (and their descendents in perpetuity) as a "Palestinian refugee" even if they moved there from Damascus or Cairo or Sanaa in 1945.

If you're going to use an historic event like the defeat of the Samaritans as justification for Israel annexing Samaria today, you should probably do a little research into the history because otherwise you run the risk of sounding like you don't know what you're talking about.

I wasn't using defeat of the Samaritans a sa justification of Israel annexing Samaria today. I was using the 1st century BCE Hasmonean Kingdom of Israel to show that the last time this land was ruled by the local people was as a Jewish/Israelite kingdom. In all the times since, and until the reestablishment of the State of Israel, the land was ruled by foreign empires such as Rome or the Ottomans. There never was an Palestinian Arab state, much less one with Jerusalem as its capital. But Jerusalem was the capital of multiple Jewish states. So who really has a good historical claim here?

 

[Derec]

You cannot possibly know that for certain.

Can we know anything for certain? Everything is about probabilities.

It is likely not to happen,

In 2005, Israel dismantled all settlements in Gaza, and IDF soldiers withdrew. It could have been a time where Gaza Palestinians show that they can be a peaceful neighbor to Israel, and thereby push the peace process forward by leaps and strides. But instead, they decided to use their newfound control of the territory to shoot rockets into Israel and dig tunnels to attack Israel from. That pushed the peace process by leaps and bounds, but backward instead of forward.

but look at what is happening in the West Bank.

Recent deterioration of the situation in Judea and Samaria is the product of the 2023 Gaza attack against Israel. But even before the start of the Gaza war in October of that year, there has been a resurgence of terrorist activity in places like Jenin and Nablus.
This is an article from March 2023: In West Bank, New Armed Groups Emerge, and Dormant Ones Stir

But in cities like Nablus, the authority’s control is ebbing and its popularity is plummeting as hopes of statehood all but evaporate. A younger generation of gunmen has become increasingly active over the past year, mounting more shooting attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians, and opening fire far more often during Israeli raids on their towns.
[...]
The Lions’ Den group in Nablus has been responsible for much of the rise in Palestinian violence. In 2022, there were 61 shooting attacks, one of them deadly, on Israeli soldiers and civilians in and around the city, up from only three attacks in 2020, according to Israeli military records.
[...]
[Lion's Den] was founded in February 2022, according to the three fighters interviewed this past week, though Israeli intelligence officers detected it only last July, an Israeli military spokesman said.
It is staffed mainly by young Fatah members frustrated by their leadership’s inaction, according to the fighters and Israeli and Palestinian officials.
But the Lions’ Den also includes fighters from Hamas and Islamic Jihad, two Islamist Palestinian groups that Fatah has traditionally opposed. Israeli and Palestinian officials say that Hamas and Islamic Jihad also secretly fund the Lions’ Den, seeking to fight Israel, destabilize the Palestinian Authority and exacerbate splits within Fatah, but not in plain sight.
Israeli officials said that the group had attacked soldiers as well as civilians and that a Lions’ Den member nearly carried out an attack in September in Tel Aviv before being foiled. The group itself claimed the killing of an Israeli soldier near Nablus in October, among other attacks.

Btw, "West Bank" is such an obviously synthetic and antiseptic place name. If Palestinians really were indigenous to the land, and not Arab interlopers, they'd have their own name for the hill country west of the Jordan. They'd also have a name to call themselves that is not a Greek/Roman colonial name that has a sound that does not even exist in Arabic. But I digress.

 

[Derec]

No, you didn’t. And bringing up Gitmo (a whataboutism) doesn’t help your case.

You still have not learned what a "whataboutism" means. Hint: offering an example is not whataboutism.

 

[laughing dog]

No, you didn’t. And bringing up Gitmo (a whataboutism) doesn’t help your case.

You still have not learned what a "whataboutism" means. Hint: offering an example is not whataboutism.

Whatever helps you feel better.

 

[laughing dog]

You cannot possibly know that for certain.

Can we know anything for certain? Everything is about probabilities.

What a poor excuse for sloppy thinking.

 

[Arctish]

Your rhetorical question about which would have been more beneficial to Gazans, power and desalinization plants or massive military apparatus, completely ignored the reality of what happens to power and desalinization plants in Gaza. It was an Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

But that would not be happening without Hamas and other groups attacking Israel from Gaza.

Hamas did not seize control of Gaza until after it routed Fatah in 2007.

Want to guess when Israel first blew up the power plant? You'll have to guess because obviously you haven't looked into the history.

Israel has been killing Palestinian kids for years.

Some actual children sadly die in warfare, especially when Hamas places military hardware in civilian areas. But even using Hamas MOH own data, a disproportionate number of dead minors are teenage males, and Hamas and other terror groups like to recruit minor teengers.

They are holding a bunch of people hostage (i.e. without charge in Israeli prisons).

Those are suspected terrorists held under administrative detention.

You can label any kidnapped person a "suspected terrorist" and their imprisonment without charge "administrative detention". Just ask your nearest ICE agent.

 

[steve_bank]

Mo0dern Israel is 'synthetic'. The boundaries by virtue of its military power is wherever Israel says it is.

Modern Jordan, Iraq, and Syria are synthetic, arbitrary lines drawn on a map,. Iran aka Perrier has a long history.

You could say it all began with he defeat and collapse of the Ottoman Empire. It left a power vacuum.

AI Overview
Yes, the Ottoman Empire controlled Palestine for exactly four centuries, from 1516 until the end of World War I in 1918. The region was fully integrated into the empire's administrative structure until British forces occupied it in 1917 and established a military administration.

AI Overview
Yes, the collapse of the Ottoman Empire created a massive, destabilizing power vacuum. As the empire disintegrated after World War I, the sudden removal of centralized imperial control led to intense, overlapping struggles for authority, widespread conflict, and long-term geopolitical shifts.

It is far more complicated than a simple Jews are good guys, Hamas are bad guys.

Around 50 democrats and a few republicans in congress have turned against funding Israel. From reportage cracks are forming in evangelical MAGA support for IIsrael

The shift in decmocrats in congress is significant. It used to be plitical suicide to oppose aid to Israel. Netanyahu has used up the good will.

AI Overview
The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) operates the largest and most influential pro-Israel PAC in the United States. Through its political action committee and its affiliated Super PAC, the United Democracy Project, it spends tens of millions of dollars to support candidates committed to the U.S.-Israel relationship and to defeat detractors.

AIPAC has been successfully influencing American politicians for decades. Free trpis to the 'holy land'.

 

[steve_bank]

In the news. There has always been Israeli opposition in the background. They have sometimes been labeled traitors.

For decades in our media we only see what comes out of the Netanyahu administration.

AI Overview
Dozens of Israeli activists gathered in Tel Aviv to protest escalating settler violence against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank. The demonstration followed a deadly clash and called for government accountability and civilian protection.
Protest Details
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Focus: Condemning settler attacks, military escalation, and land confiscation threats against Palestinian communities in the West Bank
Action: Israeli police detained several participating activists during the demonstration.

AI Overview
Yes, Israeli opposition figures, anti-government protesters, and critical military or left-wing groups have frequently been labeled as "traitors" or "anarchists" by political rivals, online commentators, and extreme right-wing elements.
Context of Accusations
Wartime Tensions: Dissenting voices and anti-war activists during military campaigns have faced severe backlash and accusations of aligning with or serving the interests of external enemies.
Conspiracy Theories: Hardline rhetoric has sometimes accused political opponents and security officials of subverting the state from within.
Political Recriminations: The inflammatory use of the term has been condemned by mainstream Israeli leaders across the political spectrum as a dangerous escalation that deepens societal polarization.

Not just the Palestinians.

AI Overview
Israel has a long-standing policy of demolishing structures and relocating Bedouin communities in both the Negev (Naqab) desert and the occupied West Bank. These actions target communities that the state classifies as "unrecognized" or illegal.

In one case Israeli opposition protests prevented one group from being displaced to make way for Jews.

It is an attitude in Israeli culture. I call it arrogance.

 

[Tigers!]

Hamas did not seize control of Gaza until after it routed Fatah in 2007.

Want to guess when Israel first blew up the power plant? You'll have to guess because obviously you haven't looked into the history.

Do you mean this Gaza power plant being blown up?
Jun 2006 is 1 year before Hamas took over Gaza from Fatah.
Is there another power plant that are referring to?