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Gender Roles

Genitals are not binary, they are bimodal. And genitals do not always correlate with gonads the way we expect. Individual with internal gonads and unfused labia but under the microscope, the gonads look like testes are rare, but they exist.
One of the most frustrating aspects of this discussion is the tendency to bring up vanishingly rare anomalies as though they are particularly relevant to the human situation.
Tom
"Anomalies" are a cultural concept. The raw data doesn't discriminate among data points. A binary distribution is by definition one without outliers that are hard to fit into either category. Everything else is a (strongly) bimodal distribution.
Disorders of sexual development aren't cultural concepts,
The existence of the condition isn't a cultural concept. Classifying it as a disorder is. Ignoring its existence in a description of the human condition overall is both a cultural concept and unscientific. You won't find a biology textbook saying that human females give birth to no more than one child a time with a separation of at least 2 years because twins and getting pregnant while nursing are "disorders" of the reproductive mechanism and not breastfeeding for at least a year is creating an artificial environment.

no more than conjoint twins are a cultural concept, or downs syndrome is a cultural concept.
You really think that's a useful analogy, don't you?

Any individual cell either does or doesn't have an extra copy of chromosome 21. Barring chimeric individuals, this a person either has 46 or 47 chromosomes in their cells. This is not in general how atypical development of gonads and genitals works.
What else do you expect from a population of people who routinely attempt to drag in charged words like "disorder" "disease" "wrong" and "incorrect" when discussing biology?

I have been trying to have the discussion that "disorders" and "diseases" are not the purview of biology per se but rather "conditions" and "structures" for some time now.

Really, she just doesn't want to be forced to abandon what has up till now been a rather convenient source of (dishonest) rhetoric.

The conditions (that may or may not be disorders for any given person) are only a "disorders" assuming they cause "distress" to a specific, real person. Some condition causing such distress to 99.999% of all the people who have it still does not make it a disorder, because it is the distress, not the condition, that makes it a disorder.

She is begging the question that we ought consider them as disorders absent the validation of distress.
 
One of the most frustrating aspects of this discussion is the tendency to bring up vanishingly rare anomalies as though they are particularly relevant to the human situation.
Tom
"Anomalies" are a cultural concept. The raw data doesn't discriminate among data points. A binary distribution is by definition one without outliers that are hard to fit into either category. Everything else is a (strongly) bimodal distribution.
Disorders of sexual development aren't cultural concepts,
The existence of the condition isn't a cultural concept. Classifying it as a disorder is. Ignoring its existence in a description of the human condition overall is both a cultural concept and unscientific. You won't find a biology textbook saying that human females give birth to no more than one child a time with a separation of at least 2 years because twins and getting pregnant while nursing are "disorders" of the reproductive mechanism and not breastfeeding for at least a year is creating an artificial environment.
In the words of the master, you really think that's a useful analogy, don't you? If there's some place you've seen Emily claim DSDs qualify as disorders because they're outliers on distributions, by all means point the place out.

no more than conjoint twins are a cultural concept, or downs syndrome is a cultural concept.
You really think that's a useful analogy, don't you?

Any individual cell either does or doesn't have an extra copy of chromosome 21. Barring chimeric individuals, this a person either has 46 or 47 chromosomes in their cells. This is not in general how atypical development of gonads and genitals works.
 
Disorders of sexual development aren't cultural concepts,
The existence of the condition isn't a cultural concept. Classifying it as a disorder is. Ignoring its existence in a description of the human condition overall is both a cultural concept and unscientific. ...
What else do you expect from a population of people who routinely attempt to drag in charged words like "disorder" "disease" "wrong" and "incorrect" when discussing biology?

I have been trying to have the discussion that "disorders" and "diseases" are not the purview of biology per se but rather "conditions" and "structures" for some time now.
Poppycock. You've been trying to have a lecture series on that opinion, not a discussion. You and I were discussing your claim five weeks ago in the other gender thread, and when I asked you some tough questions for your position, you just walked away. If you have a sincere interest in actually discussing your contention, answer that post and don't just repeat your claim without evidence.

Really, she just doesn't want to be forced to abandon what has up till now been a rather convenient source of (dishonest) rhetoric.
What are you, a Randroid, that you keep accusing people of dishonesty just for disagreeing with you?

The conditions (that may or may not be disorders for any given person) are only a "disorders" assuming they cause "distress" to a specific, real person. Some condition causing such distress to 99.999% of all the people who have it still does not make it a disorder, because it is the distress, not the condition, that makes it a disorder.

She is begging the question that we ought consider them as disorders absent the validation of distress.
Failing to base her argument on your assumptions does not qualify as begging the question. Why should anyone take your word for it that distress is what validates something as a disorder?

For 2400 years philosophers have been considering whether a physician is in essence a healer or a businessman, and here you are in effect declaring that by simply asserting he was wrong you are the refuter of Plato. That's begging the question.
 
One of the most frustrating aspects of this discussion is the tendency to bring up vanishingly rare anomalies as though they are particularly relevant to the human situation.
Tom
"Anomalies" are a cultural concept. The raw data doesn't discriminate among data points. A binary distribution is by definition one without outliers that are hard to fit into either category. Everything else is a (strongly) bimodal distribution.
Disorders of sexual development aren't cultural concepts,
The existence of the condition isn't a cultural concept. Classifying it as a disorder is. Ignoring its existence in a description of the human condition overall is both a cultural concept and unscientific. You won't find a biology textbook saying that human females give birth to no more than one child a time with a separation of at least 2 years because twins and getting pregnant while nursing are "disorders" of the reproductive mechanism and not breastfeeding for at least a year is creating an artificial environment.
In the words of the master, you really think that's a useful analogy, don't you? If there's some place you've seen Emily claim DSDs qualify as disorders because they're outliers on distributions, by all means point the place out.
By all means, point out where what I said implies that she made such a claim. I for one don't believe she did. From what I gather, she claims that they qualify as disorders because they are not what we evolved "for", and believes that allows, if not forces, us to ignore them in any objective description of the species. Because they are maladaptive mishaps of an error-prone biological mechanism that doesn't always end up with what was "intended" for us. Apart from the reek of teleology, the very same could be said about twins. If evolution had "intended" us to have 2 kids every year rather than one every two years, it wouldn't have made our infants so dependent. I'm positive throughout human prehistory and most of history, having twins was clearly maladaptive. I'm willing to bet the high chance of both twins dying (above the background high infant mortality) and increased maternal mortality far outweighed the slim chance of both surviving almost in almost every culture and every environment the genus homo ever inhabited. Yet we still get (fraternal) twin pregnancies because the biochemical mechanisms that sometimes cause women's bodies to bring two ova to maturation at the same time are but a slight "misfunction" of the mechanisms that ensure they bring *one* to maturation on a regular schedule.

So twin births are, in the environment in which homo sapiens evolved, as much of a "malfunction" in the evolved biochemical pathways that ensure the development and operation of our species' reproductory apparatus as are intermediate genitals that have a hard time getting the gametes to where they're "meant" to be. Sure, better living standards have made twin births much less maladaptive, and in a time and age where many women only have one pregnancy, they may be becoming selected for. So what? That's not our natural ecosystem, and with advances in reproductive medicine allowing more intersex individuals to have offspring, something very similar can be said about a wide range of intersex conditions. The conditions that allow twins to survive at rates high enough to outweigh the costs to fitness aren't part of our evolved environment anymore than advanced reproductive medicine is.

In conclusion, yes, I think it's indeed a good analogy, and it gets better the more I think about it!
 
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One of the most frustrating aspects of this discussion is the tendency to bring up vanishingly rare anomalies as though they are particularly relevant to the human situation.
Tom
"Anomalies" are a cultural concept. The raw data doesn't discriminate among data points. A binary distribution is by definition one without outliers that are hard to fit into either category. Everything else is a (strongly) bimodal distribution.
Disorders of sexual development aren't cultural concepts,
The existence of the condition isn't a cultural concept. Classifying it as a disorder is. Ignoring its existence in a description of the human condition overall is both a cultural concept and unscientific. You won't find a biology textbook saying that human females give birth to no more than one child a time with a separation of at least 2 years because twins and getting pregnant while nursing are "disorders" of the reproductive mechanism and not breastfeeding for at least a year is creating an artificial environment.
In the words of the master, you really think that's a useful analogy, don't you? If there's some place you've seen Emily claim DSDs qualify as disorders because they're outliers on distributions, by all means point the place out.
By all means, point out where what I said implies that she made such a claim. I for one don't believe she did. From what I gather, she claims that they qualify as disorders because they are not what we evolved "for", and believes that allows, if not forces, us to ignore them in any objective description of the species. Because they are maladaptive mishaps of an error-prone biological mechanism that doesn't always end up with what was "intended" for us. Apart from the reek of teleology, the very same could be said about twins. If evolution had "intended" us to have 2 kids every year rather than one every two years, it wouldn't have made our infants so dependent. I'm positive throughout human prehistory and most of history, having twins was clearly maladaptive. I'm willing to bet the high chance of both twins dying (above the background high infant mortality) and increased maternal mortality far outweighed the slim chance of both surviving almost in almost every culture and every environment the genus homo ever inhabited. Yet we still get (fraternal) twin pregnancies because the biochemical mechanisms that sometimes cause women's bodies to bring two ova to maturation at the same time are but a slight "misfunction" of the mechanisms that ensure they bring *one* to maturation on a regular schedule.

So twin births are, in the environment in which homo sapiens evolved, as much of a "malfunction" in the evolved biochemical pathways that ensure the development and operation of our species' reproductory apparatus as are intermediate genitals that have a hard time getting the gametes to where they're "meant" to be. Sure, better living standards have made twin births much less maladaptive, and in a time and age where many women only have one pregnancy, they may be becoming selected for. So what? That's not our natural ecosystem, and with advances in reproductive medicine allowing more intersex individuals to have offspring, something very similar can be said about a wide range of intersex conditions. The conditions that allow twins to survive at rates high enough to outweigh the costs to fitness aren't part of our evolved environment anymore than advanced reproductive medicine is.

In conclusion, yes, I think it's indeed a good analogy, and it gets better the more I think about it!
I think it comes down to the fundamental issue wherein people who want to believe falsely that gender is a pure social construct, and who want to ignore that "disordered-ness" is a social construct.

People severely ignore that disorder/advantage is contextual whereas structure/form is absolute, and the expectation is that gender is a product of structure and form.

Realistically, gender is formed by the interaction of cultural aspects within a physically receptive (or unreceptive) context to the suggestion and the result is a social construct selected for physical reasons.

Compare this to disorders which are suggested by physical reasons (relative disadvantage to some task) and selected for social reasons (suggestions to the importance of the task).
 
No, it’s not a negative gene by Darwin standards. That’s now how evolution works.

It’s negative for reproductive success for the individual, but has clearly, obviously and demonstrably not impacted the species as a whole in any negative way. Our species is not really indanger of any decaying numbers from transgenderism being one of the expressions.
But Darwin standards are all about reproductive success for the individual. When did Darwin ever say the way evolution works is by selecting what's positive for the species as a whole? That interpretation of evolution appears to have been thought up later by people who were put off by the whole 19th-century "Nature red in tooth and claw" picture and wanted to restore 18th-century "Harmony of Nature" ideas.
Not quite: Darwin standards are about individuals passing along their traits successfully but also about traits being passed along being beneficial to the species as a whole.

In multiple cultures, historically individuals who are gay, trans, two spirited, etc. were venerated and were seen as valuable members of the tribe/group. One clearly beneficial way that having someone who is physically and mentally very fit but unlikely to reproduce is that such individuals provide additional support to offspring of others and the group/society ---and therefore, that niche of species as a whole. A man and a woman produce a child/children. Living is very labor intensive: hunting, gathering, farming, building homes, making clothing and vessels for preparing food, cooking, etc. are still labor/resource intensive but we have those tasks largely assigned to specialized persons within our tribe/society. But this was much, much less so as humanity evolved and among peoples who are more tribal and less 'modern' than all of us typing at each other on our computers. It is an obvious advantage to have non-reproducing individuals around to help with those tasks and to continue to care for/provide for/teach, etc. babies and children if/when one parent or the other was either busy hunting/farming/gathering/doing something labor intensive as all life tasks were, much more than today or if one or both biological parents was temporarily ill, temporarily disabled or died. Given life expectancies thousands of years ago, life expectancies were quite short, childbirth was even more dangerous than it is today. It indeed took a village and it was much better if some of the village was engaged in helping support other people's children or other people who needed to devote their resources to the care and feeding of offspring.
 
By all means, point out where what I said implies that she made such a claim. I for one don't believe she did. From what I gather, she claims that they qualify as disorders because they are not what we evolved "for", and believes that allows, if not forces, us to ignore them in any objective description of the species. Because they are maladaptive mishaps of an error-prone biological mechanism that doesn't always end up with what was "intended" for us. Apart from the reek of teleology, the very same could be said about twins.

And homosexuals. Using the thinking offered, homosexual genes are errors because they lead to less reproductive success of the individual.
 
By all means, point out where what I said implies that she made such a claim. I for one don't believe she did. From what I gather, she claims that they qualify as disorders because they are not what we evolved "for", and believes that allows, if not forces, us to ignore them in any objective description of the species. Because they are maladaptive mishaps of an error-prone biological mechanism that doesn't always end up with what was "intended" for us. Apart from the reek of teleology, the very same could be said about twins.

And homosexuals. Using the thinking offered, homosexual genes are errors because they lead to less reproductive success of the individual.
Teleological arguments about evolution always seem strange to me. If you were doing as evolution did not "want" you to do, wouldn't that problem promptly take care of itself? If you don't understand the adaptiveness of a given trait, especially a common one, the problem is almost certainly your lack of knowledge about the circumstances of that trait's development, not the moral wickedness of the trait.
 
And homosexuals. Using the thinking offered, homosexual genes are errors because they lead to less reproductive success of the individual.
I used to hear the argument against gay marriage and such, "But if everyone went gay, the human race would die out."
My favorite response became, "Maybe gay people are God's way of saying 'Enough with the be fruitful and multiply already!"
Tom
 
It depends on whether or not a person has value beyond their ability and willingness to reproduce.

Assume that a person’s value resides solely upon their ability/willingness to continue their genes in offspring. That still does not mean that their genes can only be further propagated by directly producing genetic offspring, i.e. mating. By helping to raise to reproductive age/childbearing age the genetic offspring of closely related family members, an individual actually IS supporting the continuation of their genetic line.

We must also remember that evolution equipped humans with not only a biological desire and capacity to reproduce and to live long enough to see their offspring reach reproductive age, and also to stick around to assist in the care and feeding of future generations, but evolution also gave us brains and minds that thrive on learning, creating, teaching, etc. far beyond our basic need/desire for survival.

We are evolved to be more than just our ability to propagate our genes.

Childrearing is very labor intensive . If everyone was a parent, much less would be accomplished. Including survival. And humans have evolved to want to do much more than just survive.
 
No, it’s not a negative gene by Darwin standards. That’s now how evolution works.

It’s negative for reproductive success for the individual, but has clearly, obviously and demonstrably not impacted the species as a whole in any negative way. Our species is not really indanger of any decaying numbers from transgenderism being one of the expressions.
But Darwin standards are all about reproductive success for the individual. When did Darwin ever say the way evolution works is by selecting what's positive for the species as a whole? That interpretation of evolution appears to have been thought up later by people who were put off by the whole 19th-century "Nature red in tooth and claw" picture and wanted to restore 18th-century "Harmony of Nature" ideas.
Not quite: Darwin standards are about individuals passing along their traits successfully but also about traits being passed along being beneficial to the species as a whole.

In multiple cultures, historically individuals who are gay, trans, two spirited, etc. were venerated and were seen as valuable members of the tribe/group. One clearly beneficial way that having someone who is physically and mentally very fit but unlikely to reproduce is that such individuals provide additional support to offspring of others and the group/society ---and therefore, that niche of species as a whole. A man and a woman produce a child/children. Living is very labor intensive: hunting, gathering, farming, building homes, making clothing and vessels for preparing food, cooking, etc. are still labor/resource intensive but we have those tasks largely assigned to specialized persons within our tribe/society. But this was much, much less so as humanity evolved and among peoples who are more tribal and less 'modern' than all of us typing at each other on our computers. It is an obvious advantage to have non-reproducing individuals around to help with those tasks and to continue to care for/provide for/teach, etc. babies and children if/when one parent or the other was either busy hunting/farming/gathering/doing something labor intensive as all life tasks were, much more than today or if one or both biological parents was temporarily ill, temporarily disabled or died. Given life expectancies thousands of years ago, life expectancies were quite short, childbirth was even more dangerous than it is today. It indeed took a village and it was much better if some of the village was engaged in helping support other people's children or other people who needed to devote their resources to the care and feeding of offspring.
This is, I think, where much of the division lies.

There is a specific group within the society of our species that is only concerned with the individual, and I think this is a reflection of the fact that society and the species at large is actually physically comprised of individuals whose genetic mutations are unique, each individual serving as the limit of a whole and very specific "species", and effectively driving as a selection pressure towards genes that support the highest likelihood of retention of the whole genome, because this is best for the mutation and the genome, a genome which can contain other copies of the mutation.

Individual brains are just way more mutable than individual genomes, and generally tend towards the ability to identify those who share brain traits with them so that individual humans can more directly "band together" in trait carrying groups and make war on trait groups they dislike for whatever reason.

This is in essence the source of racism and eugenics and of fascism.

In reality, we ought be attempting to preserve as many traits within the population as possible through the support of novel behaviors, and if something awful happens to humanity at some point in time, we will have a wide variety of behaviors and forms and be less vulnerable to events.

It is a natural fact that monocultures are vulnerable to sudden events, and when a species is at the apex of the food chain, that is what it ought do: seek to prevent what happens to apex species -- extinction in some sudden event -- through diversification.

To me that says we should seek out every thing on this earth capable personhood, and be as one with them.

The individual is important but it is also important the individual seek compatibility with the species rather than insist the species becomes compatible to their specific individuality.

I think this implies that the most the individual can ask of the species is to shed arbitrarily selected drivers of social incompatibility: restrictive enforcement of some social norm.

Oftentimes those who criticize the goal by attempting to reverse victim and offender. They simply lie (or repeat a thing they often enough know is dishonest) and proclaim this call for compatibility as just another social norm to be rejected, as another restrictive social enforcement, despite the fact that acceptance of behaviors stably compatible to each other is the thing that holds up the ability to have any such nice things.

It seems little more, if anything more at all, than a subtly disguised desire to bring reality towards a pure form of "survival of the fittest" and pure individual importance, when this results in killing rivals and rape and fascism being "adaptive", and to that I say "ew, no."
 
Throwing word salad and throwing monkey poo often seem similar on the Internet.
Tom
Tell me you've never read a book even as dense as "origin of the species" without telling me you've never read a book even as dense as "origin of the species".
 
Throwing word salad and throwing monkey poo often seem similar on the Internet.
Tom
Tell me you've never read a book even as dense as "origin of the species" without telling me you've never read a book even as dense as "origin of the species".
I don't much bother responding to your word salad posts.

Tom
 
Throwing word salad and throwing monkey poo often seem similar on the Internet.
Tom
Tell me you've never read a book even as dense as "origin of the species" without telling me you've never read a book even as dense as "origin of the species".
I don't much bother responding to your word salad posts.

Tom
Again, tell me you've never read a hard book without telling me.

I tried to be very clear. None of this is at a reading level any higher than that required for reading Darwin's seminal work.

It is at, or nearby, that level of reading, however, and there are claims you could single out there and ask for evidence of.

This evidence I would largely source from Google and Wikipedia.

It is these posts that you refuse to engage with or even try to understand (because I believe in your ability to understand them) that form the logical basis for the posts you say I just pull shit out of my ass for.

If you refuse to do the work to understand my basis of thought, how can you possibly see the logic of anything based on those premises? Sometimes I do mangle paragraphs, however instead of reading them with the reading level required and pointing out "this paragraph does not parse", you just express throwing your hands up in the air after having tried nothing, to no effect. I can correct and fix grammar, but not if you tell me what you cannot parse.

You could try pointing out a paragraph. Go ahead. I can spend the next *days* dissecting that one post if you want so you understand what every part of it means, what evidence it bases on, etc..

If you point out something that has a widely known and easily parsed meaning, I might get a little snide. I'll try not to, but no promises. It's not so easy to change certain parts of ourselves.

Much of my knowledge of the nature of translation between the natural and the logical comes from reverse engineering. Some things I talk about do require advanced education in software and systems engineering, and some things take lot of hands-on experience to really grok. For these things I will suggest education that you could pursue, or projects where you can observe the logic in action?

These things I could engage in, especially if they weren't buried in a mountain of trite replies full of meaningless bullshit.

and of course, I fully suspect and would be sad if this is the post you respond to rather than just listening and trying to understand the post we are arguing pointlessly over your refusal to do the work of understanding.

You're the person I'm going to engage with this, because you're the one I can see calling it word salad.

If you wish to defend that declaration, please actually do the things required to defend a declaration of word-salad-ness and apply a high level reading like I know you can and do the task. We can engage civilly over an idea, and maybe you understand where I'm coming from. If it veers off topic we can take it to DM. I'm committed to trying to dissect whether that post is "word salad" as you are.
 
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Bomb, I described something and I called them fascists. You were the one who said that included and was exclusively "people who disagree with me". If the people I described, those fundamentally concerned with being selfish as a pure individual without respect to the needs of others, are "Nazis", then I'm glad that the people I disagree with are exactly "Nazis".

Your argument every time boils down to "how dare you tell me to not be selfish to my individual person above all other concerns!"
 
Bomb, I described something and I called them fascists. You were the one who said that included and was exclusively "people who disagree with me". If the people I described, those fundamentally concerned with being selfish as a pure individual without respect to the needs of others, are "Nazis", then I'm glad that the people I disagree with are exactly "Nazis".

Your argument every time boils down to "how dare you tell me to not be selfish to my individual person above all other concerns!"
Nope.
Bomb did not say that.

I understand that you don't understand what he said, but he did not say anything like that.
Tom
 
Assume that a person’s value resides solely upon their ability/willingness to continue their genes in offspring.
Strong argument against monogamy, if so. Or at least, against marital fidelity.
Yes/no. For the woman who gives birth, there is a high advantage to having a committed partner. Even today, one of the greatest risks to the safety of a woman’s child/ren is the introduction of an adult male partner who is not the father of her already existing child/ren. Of course some biological parents are unsuitable and may be neglectful or abusive or otherwise unstable. I’m just talking about on average.

A male would have more security in knowing he was devoting his labor/resources to continue his line if in a mutually committed monogamous marriage.

However, if a male partner was not fertile, a woman would benefit from having multiple male partners, increasing the chances of conception. And a male having multiple female partners would increase the chances of continuing his genetic line. There is of course risk of spreading sexually transmitted infections with multiple partners. And possibly more jealousy, etc.

So, different reproductive strategies work under different circumstances. We observe today that on average, children born to a mutually committed couple tend to fare better than children raised by a single parent or in an environment where there are multiple changes in partners/parental figures. There also is a strong benefit to multiple generational family groups, with grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins. Childcare labor is shared, enabling all parental figures to pursue whatever labor/interests they might have and if someone is ill or injured or dies, the children still have committed, hopefully loving family members to see them to adulthood.

Of course I grew up in a nuclear family situation and that is how we raised our children. But I am extremely familiar with the disadvantages of that family model if someone, especially a parent, becomes seriously ill or injured when children are still young, or if a marriage falls apart.

I know how Hillary was pilloried for saying that it takes a village but she was not wrong. When our children were young and we were far away from our biological families, we really did make it because we had a village of similarly situated young families who all relied upon each other for childcare, sharing all sorts of resources and information and most importantly, for emotional support. Grad housing was a great place to be a young parent, and very well compensated for lack of money.
 
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