Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[Emily Lake]

Discriminating against men as a class does no more to stem or stop the problem than anti-trans policies do.

Don't worry little ladies. We know that men are unquestionably more violent and sexually aggressive than women, and we're not going to do anything about that at all. Instead, we're just going to insist that you relinquish all of your male free spaces. Because you see, we men don't really think that male violence against women is that big a deal. We think you're just overreacting. And we think that if we just experiment some with your safe spaces, we'll be able to come up with a "balance" that makes a lot of males really happy, and only hurts a number of women that we men think is acceptable. So don't you worry your poor little girly-brain about it, we men have got this sorted. Now shoosh and go make me a sammich.

 

[Emily Lake]

I think that instead of labeling violence of a sexual nature as inherently "male", we just take an even hand across all violence, and especially sexual violence.

You're asking us to willfully ignore reality, and to pretend that there is not a MASSIVE discrepancy in the rates of sexual violence committed on the basis of sex.

You're asking women to be willing victims with no right to protect or prevent their own victimhood... why? So that a subset of males who declare themselves to have woman feels can feel accepted and affirmed, regardless of the consent or safety of actual women?

 

[Emily Lake]

It is the prejudiced presentation of sexual violence as being fundamentally "male" that is the issue here.

It may not be fundamentally male, but it's predominately male.

It's not just predominantly male, it's OVERWHELMINGLY male. Across the entire globe, irrespective of culture, and irrespective of time period.

 

[Oleg]

Discriminating against men as a class does no more to stem or stop the problem than anti-trans policies do.

Don't worry little ladies. We know that men are unquestionably more violent and sexually aggressive than women, and we're not going to do anything about that at all. Instead, we're just going to insist that you relinquish all of your male free spaces. Because you see, we men don't really think that male violence against women is that big a deal. We think you're just overreacting. And we think that if we just experiment some with your safe spaces, we'll be able to come up with a "balance" that makes a lot of males really happy, and only hurts a number of women that we men think is acceptable. So don't you worry your poor little girly-brain about it, we men have got this sorted. Now shoosh and go make me a sammich.

 

[Emily Lake]

In this case, we are talking about physical and sexual violence against women and also against some members of the LGBTQ community, which is predominately committed by males. This is the reason that I have been arguing that women might well be made uncomfortable or frightened to find naked strangers with penises in areas marked WOMEN, especially when they might be not fully clothed or naked.

Of course there are many kinds of harms, physical and emotional harms and yes, women can and do commit physical and sexual assaults but even accounting for the under-reporting of such offenses by male victims and probably female victims, most physical and sexual assaults are committed by males.

At least two posters in this thread have posted about their fears and discomfort in male dressing rooms. I understand. A lot of women would have similar fears. In fact, this sort of fear and discomfort is what has motivated me to post in this thread. More than one person has mentioned that generally, women are more accepting and less violent towards individuals who may be trans or bi or gender non-conforming, etc. I agree. Of course, this is not true of all women and it is probably not true to the same degree among all women. Of course not. But violence tends to be carried out more often by males compared with females.

Whenever problems such as sexual assault or rape are discussed, what is never ever discussed is how men can and should change their behavior. Women are cautioned to be careful how they dress, where they go, what kind of shoes they wear, not to go out after dark or at least not alone, to have multiple forms of self defense in their hands at all times, to never allow anyone else to touch their drinks, to not drink too much or not at all and to not be promiscuous but also not uptight and the list goes on for days.

Women are still blamed for their rapes and assaults. Hell, they still blame themselves. But it is almost always a man who is doing the raping and the sexual assault of women. Trust me: I condemn female violence every bit as much as male violence. But more violence is carried out by men.

The root causes of this: male sexual assault/rape of women; male violence against women; male violence against any person they see as somehow not conforming to whatever male standards they have in mind; male sexual assault/rape/assault of children.: those are never addressed.

Why not? When will it be time to address those?

I apologize in advance if this is a derail. I'm trying to answer the question asked as best I can. To me, the reasons for separating locker rooms, restrooms, etc. is based on safety and on modesty/comfort, generally of the more vulnerable groups which would be women, children and people who are at risk of being targeted, usually in male only spaces.

It will never be addressed, as long as women continue to "be nice". As long as we continue to place the delicate feelings of men above our own needs and safety, it will not change.

Toni, I respect you, I value everything you're saying here. And I intend this in as supportive a way as possible.

Stop being so nice to those who are completely willing to sacrifice women for their own ends. These are not your friends. These are people who see women as an inconvenience. Something to be used when it suits them... but at the end of the day they give no fucks if their policies harm you. I don't expect them to care if their policies harm me - most of them already hate me more than is rational. But you, you're a nice one, one of their friends. And they still give zero fucks about your safety, dignity, or consent.

So stop being nice.

 

[Emily Lake]

Why not? When will it be time to address those?

Now.

Just, not by victimizing an even more marginalized group.

How do we tell the difference?

 

[Emily Lake]

Just, not by victimizing an even more marginalized group.

I don't think that expecting someone to use the facility in the next room counts as"victimizing" them.
Tom

Or their own, "special" fountain?

Nope. It's the same fucking bathroom and shower that all other males are expected to use.

Why on earth do people keep coming up with these false analogies that rely on painting women as the powerful, strong, oppressor class? FFS, for your parallel to even remotely being to hold water, you need to paint women as analogous to white men, protecting our domination. It's idiotic.

 

[Jarhyn]

And now, we’re bigots for having any feelings at all about naked strangers with penises in the women’s locker room

You could put this in the mouth of a third of the people I went to BCT with. The sentiment is the same.

You are fearmongering on the idea that someone who you think might be attracted to you is going to violate you in a locker room.

Rape and sexual assault often have nothing to do with attraction.

You might have feelings but your responsibility is to get past them and grow up.

How many times does Toni have to indicate they aren't worried about a trans woman assaulting them (that'd be an issue Emily Lake is bringing up).

Toni's complaint is about the ambiguity that is created in the women locker room. It exists if we move in this direction. Your solution to Toni's issue here is that she needs to manage her "feelings" better. That the instinctual response to seeing what appears to be a naked male in the woman's locker room should be ignored. Is there any where else where seeing what appears to be an unexpected naked male be considered not a threat at all? We can't brand trans women. There is no Avatar icon that can appear over their head.

Is the best solution you can honestly come up with is for Toni or anyone else to just turn back around and hope they aren't about to be assaulted? There is no silver bullet to an open locker room area.

My point is wider and goes to the "ambiguity": the belief that ownership of what she considers to be sufficiently penis shaped confers automatic risk in a social setting.

An unexpected naked person in a place where people are not expected to be naked, should be considered a threat or at the very least a problem.

A person naked where people are expected to be naked is not.

A naked person acting in a way naked people are supposed to act in a place that nudity happens is not an issue.

A naked person acting differently to the way naked people are expected to act in a place that nudity happens is an issue.

Person. Not "man" sometimes and "woman" other times, any person and every person.

 

[Emily Lake]

I’m sorry for venting. I’m sorry if you feel attacked or marginalized or scapegoated. Truly. That’s been my whole life. It sucks. I never want to do that to anyone. My fault entirely.

Don't be sorry for hurting the feelings of people who are willing to sacrifice you.

 

[Emily Lake]

No one, including me, thinks there is anything to fear from trans women.

I think there is definitely something to fear from men who claim a trans identity, when they've had no history of dysphoria, nor any indication of actually truly feeling a disconnect with their male body.

There have already been several rapes and sexual assaults of women in prison, from men who have magically found their "true selves" while in prison... and somehow that "true self" only occurred to them AFTER the possibility of transfer to a female ward became possible if they say magic words.

I don't think there's anything to fear from someone who is genuinely, truly transgender. But I have zero trust that anyone who says they're transgender is actually genuinely transgender.

 

[Emily Lake]

How many times does Toni have to indicate they aren't worried about a trans woman assaulting them (that'd be an issue Emily Lake is bringing up).

Yep.

Hell, if people want to have a go at me, fine. I'm much less willing to be nice and try to protect feelings than Toni is.

But to be clear - my problem is very explicitly and specifically self-id. That's the problem. Because at that point, it's not a transwoman doing the assaulting... it's any man who feels like it, who knows he can get an easier time of it if he just says the magic phrase "I'm a transwoman". That's the problem.

Keep gatekeepers and clinical diagnoses, keep a requirement for training on how to behave around women and in women's spaces, and for fuck's sake, keep your dick covered... and I have no objections, no problems.

 

[Emily Lake]

It's not a common thing these days, but it used to be. My understanding is you'll still see some of the older people who don't try to hide it in locker rooms. However, they'll be doing whatever they're doing--not standing around observing.

I've noticed this too.

Older guys, like my dad's generation, might be very modest and buttoned up under most mixed sex circumstances. But in a male only place they just didn't care.
It's the younger guys who are modest. They're the ones who wrap a towel around their waist before changing from jeans to a swim suit.

I think that the difference is awareness of gay men. My dad was shaped by a world where there weren't any queers. The idea that he was being looked at, judged, and fantasized about, never entered his mind. Of course guys did that, he knew that. But only to women, nobody in the men's shower cared about his junk, as far as he knew.
Tom

I think it's exacerbated by the easy access to ubiquitous porn presenting young men with a very unrealistic body image too.

 

[Emily Lake]

I will admit, if I were in a gender specific space such as a bathroom or locker room, seeing a penis would, make me somewhat taken aback.

And I do believe that men and women should have gender specific spaces, social clubs, and traditions.

I also believe that physical spaces, social groups and cultural traditions need to be available to and welcoming of transgendered people.

For this to happen trans and cis gendered and gender fluid people need to sit down and reason together.

It won't be pleasant and it won't work unless all involved truly want to do right by everyone at the table.

I also think there needs to be some consideration given to muslim and orthodox jewish women too.

 

[TomC]

ownership of what she considers to be sufficiently penis shaped

OMFG!

"Sufficiently penis shaped"???

OMFG!
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

I strongly question that 40% of convicted sex offenders are/identify as /claim to be trans women.

That's not the stat. The stat is that 40% of incarcerated transwomen are incarcerated for sexual offenses.
https://4w.pub/50-of-trans-inmates-in-federal-custody-for-sex-offences/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-prison-guilty-sex-crimes-new-data-shows.html
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

I will reiterate: What is not clear is whether or not these sexual offenders are "genuinely trans" or whether they're just exploiting the gigantic gaping loophole. Either way, people who declare themselves to be trans have a higher proportion of sex offenders among them.

I agree that in this thread I’m being told that women are just too emotional and need to get over it.

And that I’m stigmatizing a more marginalized group. I’m not sure how that is true but a man said it so it must be true, I guess. Because we know we can’t trust women.

 

[Emily Lake]

My point is wider and goes to the "ambiguity": the belief that ownership of what she considers to be sufficiently penis shaped confers automatic risk in a social setting.

An unexpected naked person in a place where people are not expected to be naked, should be considered a threat or at the very least a problem.

A person naked where people are expected to be naked is not.

A naked person acting in a way naked people are supposed to act in a place that nudity happens is not an issue.

A naked person acting differently to the way naked people are expected to act in a place that nudity happens is an issue.

Person. Not "man" sometimes and "woman" other times, any person and every person.

It's a very egalitarian view you hold, one that reflects a profound lack of understanding of the experiences of women, and which dismisses the concerns of women as being unimportant. Because you, a male, with a male physique and a male experience, hold a philosophical position that requires women to make ourselves willing victims in your social experiment.

No.

I have the right to say no, and I am saying it. I do not consent to be a guinea pig in your experiment.

No.

 

[Emily Lake]

ownership of what she considers to be sufficiently penis shaped

OMFG!

"Sufficiently penis shaped"???

OMFG!
Tom

I'm waiting for someone to make the argument that "But it's a FEMALE penis, so it's fine!"

At some point, the entire concept or rationality and observable reality has been thrown out with the bathwater.

 

[Toni]

I thought that the reason you want access to the women's spaces is that you don't trust men.

I never said I want access to women's spaces, and it's not that I don't trust men.

I just don't trust violent assholes. I have met violent assholes in a variety of settings in a variety of presentations and ostensibly a variety of genders.

There are a lot of violent assholes who think being a violent asshole goes part in parcel with being a man, and this is exacerbated by culture among them.

It doesn't mean I think it's appropriate to distrust "men". I do distrust anyone who believes they have a right to be a violent asshole.

I think that everyone has an equal right to be and feel "safe". I think that there are some things that we have an obligation to teach our peers and children not to construct a false sense of safety around, nor a false model of distrust.

The fact is, some day a person claiming to be a trans woman is going to rape someone in a bathroom.

I would still expect it more common for CIS women to violate women in bathrooms, even so.

That will become a rumor that "everyone" tells about "knowing someone who this happened to", AKA stupid lies that pile on. I've met people who have done this behavior in different contexts before, inserting themselves into such urban legend and keeping the lie alive.

I don't distrust men, I distrust people who act cagey, aggressive, and who attempt to dominate others physically or socially. Those exist among every group you care to draw some arbitrary line around.

My point is that I don't really think I could find what I want in a "women's" restroom either.

I think I might find it in a restroom where nobody inside is expected to be a "man" or a "woman", but is there to shit, piss, or futz with their face, maybe maintain or clean their backsides or genitals in a private space and then leave.

One room should be explicitly and strictly expected to be devoid of all social contact, except instruction on how to use the room while the other is in some way socially open, and violence in either such space should be unheard of and treated as abjectly unexpected.

Fearmongering is the issue here.

And now, we’re bigots for having any feelings at all about naked strangers with penises in the women’s locker room

You could put this in the mouth of a third of the people I went to BCT with. The sentiment is the same.

You are fearmongering on the idea that someone who you think might be attracted to you is going to violate you in a locker room.

It's nothing I haven't seen before. It's not a prejudice you have a monopoly on.

I'm sure lesbian women have been treated with this same prejudice, and they don't even have different parts.

You might have feelings but your responsibility is to get past them and grow up.

Ffs: I’m mid- 60’s, have had 4 children via c-section plus an additional abdominal surgery. Plenty of scars and stretch marks to prove it, not to mention saggy bits and pieces. I’m mostly gray haired, short and fat. Trust me: I am not worried about strangers in the locker room being sexually attracted to me.

I’m also not worried about someone trying to assault me. I’ve fought off attackers much stronger and much larger than I was and I’m pretty confident I could do it again if need be.

But guess what? Those guys were not so sexually attracted to me that they just couldn’t help themselves. They weren’t horny: they were angry and they felt entitled to do whatever they wanted. In those days I weighed under 100 lbs so they thought I was an easy target.

They were wrong.

I don’t think that trans women are a threat. I think that it is

a) impossible to accurately a certain that someone is a transwoman in a couple of seconds one would have to react if it was someone who had nefarious motives

b) safe for women to set aside their culturally enforced concerns about being naked in front of naked strangers with penises

c) Fair to expect women to ignore their own feelings of modesty and desire for privacy

That is nothing at all against trans women.

It IS categorically against the idea that women must accept accommodate whatever needs, wants and desires someone with a penis tells us we must accept and accommodate.

In theory anyone should be able to feel comfortable and should actually BE safe and comfortable in whatever locker room they choose to use. But some make members have talked about not feeling comfortable in mens’ locker rooms in this thread.

Maybe the issue is not women wanting privacy. Maybe the issue is male entitlement—to expel anyone they don’t find fits their stereotype of what male is and to insist that women put up with whatever the men dish out, without complaint.

 

[Toni]

I strongly question that 40% of convicted sex offenders are/identify as /claim to be trans women.

That's not the stat. The stat is that 40% of incarcerated transwomen are incarcerated for sexual offenses.
https://4w.pub/50-of-trans-inmates-in-federal-custody-for-sex-offences/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-prison-guilty-sex-crimes-new-data-shows.html
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

I will reiterate: What is not clear is whether or not these sexual offenders are "genuinely trans" or whether they're just exploiting the gigantic gaping loophole. Either way, people who declare themselves to be trans have a higher proportion of sex offenders among them.

I agree that in this thread I’m being told that women are just too emotional and need to get over it.

And that I’m stigmatizing a more marginalized group. I’m not sure how that is true but a man said it so it must be true, I guess. Because we know we can’t trust women.

Ah, I misunderstood. My apologies.

 

[Emily Lake]

Ah, I misunderstood. My apologies.

No worries. It's a very specific wording, with a very specific meaning. The first time I ran across it, I had the same reaction you did.