Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[Toni]

I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.

The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.

It doesn't just have to be sexual assault to be problematic.

I'm also curious why you seem to be so disinterested in Toni's perspective on this. What she is saying isn't remotely outlandish.

She's expecting society to conform to her fears despite the evidence saying there's no meaningful threat.

We wouldn't accept that as a reason to keep blacks out of places, how is this scenario any different?

Black people belong everywhere they were and sometimes still are kept out of.

Naked people with penises in women's locker rooms is a brand new idea.

New doesn't make it wrong.

For the record, I'm not 'afraid.' I have legitimate concerns for the safety and comfort of ALL women, including trans women. I'm certain that they do not need the trauma of another woman being shocked and frightened by the sight of a naked stranger with a penis standing next to her in the shower.

Care to address why a transwoman might feel unsafe in a men's locker room? Why isn't THAT a problem? If men are so accepting (hah!) and open minded (double hah!), why would a naked transwoman not feel or be safe in a room full of naked people with penises?

Because some of them will be aggressive rednecks.

Loren, what is wrong is to expect women to simply accept one of the things they have been conditioned to see as a threat in a space that they regard as safe and private and to do so immediately. BTW, at zero inconvenience to cis men who don't give a shit about women anyway.

I think what is wrong is accepting the continued conditioning and messaging and it's knock on effects of prejudice.

I don't see anyone in here clamoring for an immediate change.

Most of us calling for this are pointing out that it starts at education time.

I gather the biggest issue here among "cis men" is being treated en masse like such are a threat to safety and privacy.

If there is a behavioral threat inherent to testosterone exposure. Might as well give people scores and add three more restrooms, separating them by that "social credit rating"*.

Or we can just accept that some people engage in illegal behavior in bathrooms and recognize those people and put them in places where they are expected to either stay, or learn how to act appropriately on a consistent basis**.



*Side effects include DYSTOPIAN existence...

**Like a jail, but actually rehabilitation.

How about if we tackle the real root of the issue: make violence?

Male violence makes women fear for their safety. It makes some gay people fear for their safety. It makes gender non-conforming or binary people fear for their safety.

If men were not so violent, everyone would have much less to fear.

Discriminating against men as a class does no more to stem or stop the problem than anti-trans policies do.

Discriminate? I am talking about addressing physical and sexual violence.

And labeling it as specifically "male".

It is the prejudiced presentation of sexual violence as being fundamentally "male" that is the issue here.

And this isn't even starting to address the forms of violence more common among women, which are also very bad and mostly operated through social rather than physical mechanisms.

In this case, we are talking about physical and sexual violence against women and also against some members of the LGBTQ community, which is predominately committed by males. This is the reason that I have been arguing that women might well be made uncomfortable or frightened to find naked strangers with penises in areas marked WOMEN, especially when they might be not fully clothed or naked.

Of course there are many kinds of harms, physical and emotional harms and yes, women can and do commit physical and sexual assaults but even accounting for the under-reporting of such offenses by male victims and probably female victims, most physical and sexual assaults are committed by males.

At least two posters in this thread have posted about their fears and discomfort in male dressing rooms. I understand. A lot of women would have similar fears. In fact, this sort of fear and discomfort is what has motivated me to post in this thread. More than one person has mentioned that generally, women are more accepting and less violent towards individuals who may be trans or bi or gender non-conforming, etc. I agree. Of course, this is not true of all women and it is probably not true to the same degree among all women. Of course not. But violence tends to be carried out more often by males compared with females.

Whenever problems such as sexual assault or rape are discussed, what is never ever discussed is how men can and should change their behavior. Women are cautioned to be careful how they dress, where they go, what kind of shoes they wear, not to go out after dark or at least not alone, to have multiple forms of self defense in their hands at all times, to never allow anyone else to touch their drinks, to not drink too much or not at all and to not be promiscuous but also not uptight and the list goes on for days.

Women are still blamed for their rapes and assaults. Hell, they still blame themselves. But it is almost always a man who is doing the raping and the sexual assault of women. Trust me: I condemn female violence every bit as much as male violence. But more violence is carried out by men.

The root causes of this: male sexual assault/rape of women; male violence against women; male violence against any person they see as somehow not conforming to whatever male standards they have in mind; male sexual assault/rape/assault of children.: those are never addressed.

Why not? When will it be time to address those?

I apologize in advance if this is a derail. I'm trying to answer the question asked as best I can. To me, the reasons for separating locker rooms, restrooms, etc. is based on safety and on modesty/comfort, generally of the more vulnerable groups which would be women, children and people who are at risk of being targeted, usually in male only spaces.

 

[TomC]

You cannot judge a population by bad behavior of a minority, and those that do are prejudiced shits.

I thought that the reason you want access to the women's spaces is that you don't trust men.

Frankly, I don't trust them much either. As a gay man, I think I understand "Men are pigs" better than most guys.

We are. Just sayin'

But while you claim that most of us think "Men are probably rapists", we don't. What we do realize is that "Rapists are probably men."

It's not the same thing. It's an important distinction.

I'd be a security asset to women, like most men. Were I in a public space with women I wouldn't be any problem. I'd go out of my way to be polite, like most men.

I'm also big, hairy, and quite capable of being physically intimidating if I think it's appropriate behavior. If I thought a woman was being mistreated, even in a little way like leering, I'd be a problem for the miscreant. Most men would, because most of us care about the feelings and concerns of women as a group. That's also why we don't bully our way into the women's restroom, ever.
Go pee somewhere else, like the room next door.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

Why not? When will it be time to address those?

Now.

Just, not by victimizing an even more marginalized group.

 

[TomC]

Just, not by victimizing an even more marginalized group.

I don't think that expecting someone to use the facility in the next room counts as"victimizing" them.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

Just, not by victimizing an even more marginalized group.

I don't think that expecting someone to use the facility in the next room counts as"victimizing" them.
Tom

Or their own, "special" fountain?

 

[TomC]

Just, not by victimizing an even more marginalized group.

I don't think that expecting someone to use the facility in the next room counts as"victimizing" them.
Tom

Or their own, "special" fountain?

Dayum.
The air up there in your ivory tower is thin.
Tom

ETA ~Have you any idea how ridiculous this sort of post looks to those of us who aren't as cis-phobic as you are? ~

 

[Toni]

Why not? When will it be time to address those?

Now.

Just, not by victimizing an even more marginalized group.

But it’s ok to victimize cis women? Because that’s how it feels to me. What I hear is that it is ridiculous and harmful for cis women to be concerned for their own safety. That being concerned for our safety is bigotry.

And not one single person has told me HOW women are supposed t immediately discern that the naked stranger with a penis standing next to them is a woman and no threat.

We’re ridiculous for caring about safety and modesty and not just accepting that people with penises have every right to be where ever they feel most comfortable —and cis women are bigots for objecting.

We’re called shrews and frigid for not being comfortable with whatever naked person with a penis wants to be near us.

We’re sluts and whores if we are too accepting of naked people with penises.

We’re blamed if someone with a penis rapes us. Blamed for not being careful enough, pure enough, sober enough, vigilant enough, understanding enough.

Blamed for being too ( fill in the blank). I’m too exhausted from a lifetime of this bullshit.

And now, we’re bigots for having any feelings at all about naked strangers with penises in the women’s locker room.

You think trans women are being scapegoated?

No. Trans women are fine! I really mean that. They are not the problem. The problem is the glib expectation that women just will accept whatever someone with a penis tells us we should.

It’s the bullshit, the conflicting messages and the overwhelming one that whatever happens, we’re just wrong. We have no right to ever expect to feel comfortable and safe. We just have to accept whatever someone with a penis ( past or present) tells you to accept.

I’m sorry for venting. I’m sorry if you feel attacked or marginalized or scapegoated. Truly. That’s been my whole life. It sucks. I never want to do that to anyone. My fault entirely.

 

[Jarhyn]

I thought that the reason you want access to the women's spaces is that you don't trust men.

I never said I want access to women's spaces, and it's not that I don't trust men.

I just don't trust violent assholes. I have met violent assholes in a variety of settings in a variety of presentations and ostensibly a variety of genders.

There are a lot of violent assholes who think being a violent asshole goes part in parcel with being a man, and this is exacerbated by culture among them.

It doesn't mean I think it's appropriate to distrust "men". I do distrust anyone who believes they have a right to be a violent asshole.

I think that everyone has an equal right to be and feel "safe". I think that there are some things that we have an obligation to teach our peers and children not to construct a false sense of safety around, nor a false model of distrust.

The fact is, some day a person claiming to be a trans woman is going to rape someone in a bathroom.

I would still expect it more common for CIS women to violate women in bathrooms, even so.

That will become a rumor that "everyone" tells about "knowing someone who this happened to", AKA stupid lies that pile on. I've met people who have done this behavior in different contexts before, inserting themselves into such urban legend and keeping the lie alive.

I don't distrust men, I distrust people who act cagey, aggressive, and who attempt to dominate others physically or socially. Those exist among every group you care to draw some arbitrary line around.

My point is that I don't really think I could find what I want in a "women's" restroom either.

I think I might find it in a restroom where nobody inside is expected to be a "man" or a "woman", but is there to shit, piss, or futz with their face, maybe maintain or clean their backsides or genitals in a private space and then leave.

One room should be explicitly and strictly expected to be devoid of all social contact, except instruction on how to use the room while the other is in some way socially open, and violence in either such space should be unheard of and treated as abjectly unexpected.

Fearmongering is the issue here.

And now, we’re bigots for having any feelings at all about naked strangers with penises in the women’s locker room

You could put this in the mouth of a third of the people I went to BCT with. The sentiment is the same.

You are fearmongering on the idea that someone who you think might be attracted to you is going to violate you in a locker room.

It's nothing I haven't seen before. It's not a prejudice you have a monopoly on.

I'm sure lesbian women have been treated with this same prejudice, and they don't even have different parts.

You might have feelings but your responsibility is to get past them and grow up.

 

[TomC]

The fact is, some day a person claiming to be a trans woman is going to rape someone in a bathroom.

Hate to be the one to break it to you dude.
But Hannah Tubbs isn't the first or only trans woman convicted of sexually assaulting a female. IIRC, it was in the restroom at a Denny's restaurant.

I would still expect it more common for CIS women to violate women in bathrooms, even so.

You can't seriously believe this, can you?

I'm sure restroom assaults are low in the current world of sex segregation. I'm also sure that would change if males were entitled to use women's rooms.
Tom

 

[Oleg]

And not one single person has told me HOW women are supposed t immediately discern that the naked stranger with a penis standing next to them is a woman and no threat.

If he does it with a trench coat on the street it's indecent exposure. If he does in the lady's locker room, it's affirming.

 

[Toni]

I thought that the reason you want access to the women's spaces is that you don't trust men.

I never said I want access to women's spaces, and it's not that I don't trust men.

I just don't trust violent assholes. I have met violent assholes in a variety of settings in a variety of presentations and ostensibly a variety of genders.

There are a lot of violent assholes who think being a violent asshole goes part in parcel with being a man, and this is exacerbated by culture among them.

It doesn't mean I think it's appropriate to distrust "men". I do distrust anyone who believes they have a right to be a violent asshole.

I think that everyone has an equal right to be and feel "safe". I think that there are some things that we have an obligation to teach our peers and children not to construct a false sense of safety around, nor a false model of distrust.

The fact is, some day a person claiming to be a trans woman is going to rape someone in a bathroom.

I would still expect it more common for CIS women to violate women in bathrooms, even so.

That will become a rumor that "everyone" tells about "knowing someone who this happened to", AKA stupid lies that pile on. I've met people who have done this behavior in different contexts before, inserting themselves into such urban legend and keeping the lie alive.

I don't distrust men, I distrust people who act cagey, aggressive, and who attempt to dominate others physically or socially. Those exist among every group you care to draw some arbitrary line around.

My point is that I don't really think I could find what I want in a "women's" restroom either.

I think I might find it in a restroom where nobody inside is expected to be a "man" or a "woman", but is there to shit, piss, or futz with their face, maybe maintain or clean their backsides or genitals in a private space and then leave.

One room should be explicitly and strictly expected to be devoid of all social contact, except instruction on how to use the room while the other is in some way socially open, and violence in either such space should be unheard of and treated as abjectly unexpected.

Fearmongering is the issue here.

And now, we’re bigots for having any feelings at all about naked strangers with penises in the women’s locker room

You could put this in the mouth of a third of the people I went to BCT with. The sentiment is the same.

You are fearmongering on the idea that someone who you think might be attracted to you is going to violate you in a locker room.

It's nothing I haven't seen before. It's not a prejudice you have a monopoly on.

I'm sure lesbian women have been treated with this same prejudice, and they don't even have different parts.

You might have feelings but your responsibility is to get past them and grow up.

Get past the fear of sexual assault when I’ve been assaulted so many people I should have been able to trust?

No one, including me, thinks there is anything to fear from trans women.

What you refuse to accept is that there is no way to IMMEDIATELY know that you are looking at a transwoman and not someone who does intend harm.

I’m not asking anyone to use different facilities than I use.

I’m asking for a tiny bit of the understanding and acceptance you are asking iof women and would never ever expect from men.

Im not the one who needs to grow up and get past my bigotry.

 

[Oleg]

And not one single person has told me HOW women are supposed t immediately discern that the naked stranger with a penis standing next to them is a woman and no threat.

If he does it with a trench coat on the street it's indecent exposure. If he does in the lady's locker room, it's affirming.

 

[repoman]

And not one single person has told me HOW women are supposed t immediately discern that the naked stranger with a penis standing next to them is a woman and no threat.

If he does it with a trench coat on the street it's indecent exposure. If he does in the lady's locker room, it's affirming.

the comments are interesting, mentioned not just John Money but also abortionist Henry Morgentaler who looks so Jewish is it is antisemitic.

also this

To the autogynephile the women's restroom is a sexually charged locale, as a honeymoon suite or a bedroom strewn with rose pedals is to a normal couple.

​

 

[Oleg]

And not one single person has told me HOW women are supposed t immediately discern that the naked stranger with a penis standing next to them is a woman and no threat.

If he does it with a trench coat on the street it's indecent exposure. If he does in the lady's locker room, it's affirming.

the comments are interesting, mentioned not just John Money but also abortionist Henry Morgentaler who looks so Jewish is it is antisemitic.

also this

To the autogynephile the women's restroom is a sexually charged locale, as a honeymoon suite or a bedroom strewn with rose pedals is to a normal couple.

​

This is just the other part of the issue. It's not just that men are more prone to sexual offenses, it's that these guys get sexually aroused when in women's spaces. No one should be forced to participate in a man's sexual kink. No one.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And now, we’re bigots for having any feelings at all about naked strangers with penises in the women’s locker room

You could put this in the mouth of a third of the people I went to BCT with. The sentiment is the same.

You are fearmongering on the idea that someone who you think might be attracted to you is going to violate you in a locker room.

Rape and sexual assault often have nothing to do with attraction.

You might have feelings but your responsibility is to get past them and grow up.

How many times does Toni have to indicate they aren't worried about a trans woman assaulting them (that'd be an issue Emily Lake is bringing up).

Toni's complaint is about the ambiguity that is created in the women locker room. It exists if we move in this direction. Your solution to Toni's issue here is that she needs to manage her "feelings" better. That the instinctual response to seeing what appears to be a naked male in the woman's locker room should be ignored. Is there any where else where seeing what appears to be an unexpected naked male be considered not a threat at all? We can't brand trans women. There is no Avatar icon that can appear over their head.

Is the best solution you can honestly come up with is for Toni or anyone else to just turn back around and hope they aren't about to be assaulted? There is no silver bullet to an open locker room area.

 

[TomC]

It's not a common thing these days, but it used to be. My understanding is you'll still see some of the older people who don't try to hide it in locker rooms. However, they'll be doing whatever they're doing--not standing around observing.

I've noticed this too.

Older guys, like my dad's generation, might be very modest and buttoned up under most mixed sex circumstances. But in a male only place they just didn't care.
It's the younger guys who are modest. They're the ones who wrap a towel around their waist before changing from jeans to a swim suit.

I think that the difference is awareness of gay men. My dad was shaped by a world where there weren't any queers. The idea that he was being looked at, judged, and fantasized about, never entered his mind. Of course guys did that, he knew that. But only to women, nobody in the men's shower cared about his junk, as far as he knew.
Tom

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I will admit, if I were in a gender specific space such as a bathroom or locker room, seeing a penis would, make me somewhat taken aback.

And I do believe that men and women should have gender specific spaces, social clubs, and traditions.

I also believe that physical spaces, social groups and cultural traditions need to be available to and welcoming of transgendered people.

For this to happen trans and cis gendered and gender fluid people need to sit down and reason together.

It won't be pleasant and it won't work unless all involved truly want to do right by everyone at the table.

 

[Emily Lake]

Ah, a classic conservative "solution". Make it nearly impossible for people to pursue gender confirmation surgeries unless they're wealthy enough to cover it on their own, flexible enough to move to a state with a clinic, and have years to burn. But also gatekeep trans people who haven't been carved on, witholding rights until they can't be clocked any more. And NBs or people whose health situation doesn't allow surgery can just fuck right off.

Because a certain kind of person only feels "safe" when scary strangers are suffering somehow.

What the actual fuck are you even talking about here?

 

[Emily Lake]

It’s about deserving to feel safe. Which you should understand because you don’t think that trans women would feel safe or comfortable in a locker room with a bunch of men.

Yes, but see, it's *important* that transwomen feel safe, those poor things. If women feel unsafe, well, tough titties, they're just women, their feelings don't matter.

 

[Emily Lake]

Keyword that you're still missing: "Feel".

It's an illusion of safety, there is no actual protection provided.

Lol. Sure sure. Locking your door is just an illusion. If a person really wants to steal your stuff, they will.

You seem to have no concept of 1) preventive measures and 2) opportunism