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Loren, there is nothing wrong with feelings. Everyone has them. You don’t need to feel afraid of feelings—yours or the feelings of women you don’t know.
Is that a sick joke? Trans people have every reason in the world to be afraid of women's feelings. And men's feelings. Just feelings in general. Women's feelings can get people arrested, hurt, killed. Their jobs lost, their children stolen by the state. What the hell do you think hatred is, a fact? Of course it's a feeling.
As evidenced by the huge numbers of evil hatefilled women who show up at an transgender supportive rally and threaten them with rape and death, right? RIGHT?
 
It’s not bigotry for most of us. It’s legitimate concern for safety as we cannot tell at a moment’s glance who is not a threat, especially in a locker room.
This would only make sense if it's shown that men are far more likely to commit sexual offenses than women.
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It’s about deserving to feel safe. Which you should understand because you don’t think that trans women would feel safe or comfortable in a locker room with a bunch of men.
Yes, but see, it's *important* that transwomen feel safe, those poor things. If women feel unsafe, well, tough titties, they're just women, their feelings don't matter.
It's obvious that what matters is that males, of whatever gender, get what they want.
Whenever they want it.

Cis-phobes are getting ridiculous.
Tom
 
Be extremely careful around strange men is taught to women from an early age and for very good reasons. Particularly in vulnerable situations like public restrooms and changing facilities.

What makes the attitude of some of the guys here particularly appalling is this premise. "I don't feel safe or comfortable in such a place with other men. So I want men to have access to women's spaces."
The ones that are a threat are not the ones that are going to be undressed.
You mean... other than the men that have been charged for doing exactly that? You are aware that flashing is a crime, and that it is almost entirely men who engage in flashing, right?

Self ID doesn't help. All if does is decriminalize flashing and makes it legal of men to expose themselves to nonconsenting women.
 
And you think that's not the case?!

Most sexual offenses are committed by men. It's just this trans panic stuff is focusing on the wrong men.
Au contraire. It has always been focused on MEN in general.

But please - if you know a sure-fire way for women to identify the "safe" men from the dangerous men, there are a whole lot of women who would really appreciate knowing.
 
I don't think that transwomen are a threat in the locker room. I just don't know how anyone is supposed to know the difference between a trans woman and a man and make an assessment, while naked in the locker room that there is no threat.
The fact that you're seeing their penis is a pretty strong indication that they're not the ones that are the problem. Rapists don't go hunting victims while naked.
CONSENT CONSENT CONSENT CONSENT CONSENT CONSENT CONSENT
 
Be extremely careful around strange men is taught to women from an early age and for very good reasons. Particularly in vulnerable situations like public restrooms and changing facilities.

What makes the attitude of some of the guys here particularly appalling is this premise. "I don't feel safe or comfortable in such a place with other men. So I want men to have access to women's spaces."
The ones that are a threat are not the ones that are going to be undressed.
Really. Naked people are considered enough of a threat around a children's playground that they generally get arrested.
In this thread, we learn that Loren is a fan of indecent exposure.
 
The fact is, you judge men as "probably rapist" while you judge women as "probably not".
That would be because statistically and historically and PRESENTLY that's how it works out. 99% of the perpetrators of sexual violence are males. 95% of their victims are females. The likelihood of any random woman being a sexual predatory that might harm me is very nearly nonexistent. The likelihood of a random man being a sexual predator that might harm me is around 1 in 20.
 
And finally: WHY IS MY ASKING THE ABOVE QUESTION OR MAKING THE ABOVE SUGGESTION A SIGN OF NON-ACCEPTANCE, BIGOTRY OR BEING BIGOTRY-ADJACENT OR USED BY BIGOTS?
That would be because you've committed the cardinal sin of placing the safety and dignity of women above the feelings of men.
 
Yes. Trans women are being talked about (never to) incredibly cruelly in this thread.
No they are not. First off, there are to my knowledge no transgender identified people in this thread to talk to, so your parenthetical is irrelevant. And secondly, the people being talked about are males.
 
I'm going to make a suggestion that probably no one will take me up on but: Watch the film She Said. It's available on Amazon Prime right now, perhaps other platforms. Not so much to inform you about the whole Harvey Weinstein issue but because if you listen to how women talk about how they were expected to tolerate behavior, to accommodate it, to work around it and how little any of that did in the way of protecting them. It's a small, very small taste of what girls grow up hearing, absorbing, incorporating into their behavior. Not to make a fuss. Not to expect to have boundaries. Not to expect to be believed. Just to expect and be prepared and to deal with it on your own. In silence.
Though I believe you genuinely do, I don't understand how you can care about the actual issue of sexual abuse of women by men in positions of power, and come to the conclusion that trans women in gym locker rooms, who in terms of social privilege basically the exact opposite of a man like Harvey Weinstein, are the real problem here. You can heap whatever persecutions you like on trans women, and it will not make anyone an iota safer. Not women, not men, nor anyone else. They aren't the group most likely to commit those kinds of crimes, nor is it an effective approach to crime to just blindly persecute entire classes of people on the basis of what some of them have allegedly done, even if they were. By criminalizing the actions of the innocent while turning a blind eye to the crimes of guilty, we make things worse out there for everyone, not better.
Two things here.

First, if we accept your premise that transgender identified males represent no risk to women whatsoever and would never sexually assault or abuse women ever... We still have the problem of not being able to tell whether any given male-bodied person is a transwoman or not. Let me give you a more explicit scenario. Assume there is a locker room where women are regularly unclothed. Two male-bodied people enter that locker room. One of them is a perfectly harmless transwoman, who is non-op and non-HRT. The other one is a predator who wants to get off on seeing naked women and making them uncomfortable. Let's even assume that anyone who looks like a male gets asked on their way in "Are you a transwoman?".

Do you think that the predator, who is intentionally transgressing women's boundaries, is going to be honest? If he lies, how do we tell that he is lying and that the other person is not?

Secondly... I think your premise is based on a desired narrative. There have now been studies in England, Scotland, Canada, and IIRC California. The percentage of transwomen who are serving time for sexual crimes is significantly higher than that of men in general. I don't recall the exact numbers, but it's something like 5% of men are incarcerated for sexual crimes, and about 40% of transwomen.

Now - let me be very clear here. This does not necessarily mean that transwomen offend at rates higher than men. I think it's far more likely that sexual predators are likely to falsely identify as trans while incarcerated, in a play to get moved to a female prison. But that does bring me right back around to the very heart of the problem: Self-ID.

I don't have a problem with transwomen. There are several that I know personally and rather like. What I have a problem with is Self-ID. That's the problem. The problem is that policies are being written and enacted right now, where any man who says they are trans is granted legal access to female-only spaces... with no oversight, no way to verify that they're not bad actors, and no consideration at all given for the risk and discomfort this places on women. And absolutely zero thought given the the basic concept of consent. It creates an incentive for bad actors to declare themselves trans, because by doing so they are immune to accusations of acting badly when they look at naked women against their will, or when they expose themselves to women without their consent. It legalizes peeping and flashing. And it creates a situation where no prevention is possible... and the only recourse women have is to report an assault after it happens. And when only about 1% or reported sexual assaults ever get convicted, that's pretty much giving a 99% free pass for men to behave badly without consequence.

Self ID has a gigantic gaping loophole that is visible from space.

But women are being told, over and over and over, mostly by men, that we should pretend that we're not aware of that loophole, and we should just pretend that there's no risk... and well... if it turns out down the road that "too many" women get hurt because of this giant loophole... then maybe the menfolk will reconsider it then. But until then, we should just shut up, be nice, and know our places.
 
It’s about deserving to feel safe. Which you should understand because you don’t think that trans women would feel safe or comfortable in a locker room with a bunch of men.
Yes, but see, it's *important* that transwomen feel safe, those poor things. If women feel unsafe, well, tough titties, they're just women, their feelings don't matter.
It's obvious that what matters is that males, of whatever gender, get what they want.
Whenever they want it.

Cis-phobes are getting ridiculous.
Tom
You don't know what "cis" means, do you?
 
The inappropriateness of scapegoating trans women for crimes there is no evidence they are responsible for. If she truly cares about addressing the issue of sexual harassment and abuse, and I believe she does, I would like to ask Toni to stop attacking victims, and start focusing on perpetrators. Not pretend ones in pretend situations, but actual ones in known situations.
What you are asking for is that women in general, and Toni and I in particular, relinquish our boundaries and forego any right to prevent harm to ourselves. You are asking that we willfully pretend that any man who shows up in a female-only space must be safe and sweet, and to completely disregard all of our very rational responses.

You're asking that we wait until AFTER we've been harmed before we say anything.

I hereby invite you to leave all of your doors unlocked, your cash on the counter clearly visible from the street, and your keys in the ignition in your unlocked car out front. I mean, you wouldn't want to accidentally make someone feel like you think they *might* be a thief by locking up your things. You don't KNOW they're a thief. You're just pretending they might be.
 
I wouldn't say that everyone completely agrees--we all agree that stalls would be good but she wants them mandated and some of us disagree with that.

Loren, why is it so important to you that male-bodied people have access to naked women whenever they wish, and that women have no say in the matter?
 
Exactly. The threat is real, the target identification is the problem. There are bad men out there, it's just they're not walking around women's locker rooms naked.
They have not historically been walking around women's locker rooms naked BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T ALLOWED TO BE THERE AND WOMEN HAD THE RIGHT TO SCREAM AND YELL AND CALL THE POLICE IF THEY WERE!

FFS, You're changing the rules. You're supporting a NEW AND DIFFERENT situation, wherein the bad men now have a legal fucking right to come into the women's locker room and walk around naked AND WOMEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO CALL THE COPS OR COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

You are supporting the complete removal of any concept of consent from women.
 
I'm just saying that a bad guy isn't going to tip their hand like that before selecting a victim. The mugger doesn't walk around with his gun in his hand.
He will if you make it legal for him to do so, and you shame and harass anyone who says people shouldn't be walking around with guns in their hands.
 
I would rather being able to merely show that you don't produce sperms through such a card.

That's what the real issue is: people don't want to share a space with people who carry risk of causing impregnation.
In this thread, a male person tells women what we're "really" afraid of. And gets it wrong in so very many ways.
 
I wouldn't say that everyone completely agrees--we all agree that stalls would be good but she wants them mandated and some of us disagree with that.

Loren, why is it so important to you that male-bodied people have access to naked women whenever they wish, and that women have no say in the matter?
Or, why should everyone else, the rest of society, do a 180 on separate sex spaces to affirm a few men’s body dysphoria?
 
I think what is wrong is accepting the continued conditioning and messaging and it's knock on effects of prejudice.
Tell you what - when you manage to get the sexual assault and domestic violence stats among males down the the level they're at for females, I will consider being "reeducated" for the convenience and comfort of men.
 
I'm going to make a suggestion that probably no one will take me up on but: Watch the film She Said. It's available on Amazon Prime right now, perhaps other platforms. Not so much to inform you about the whole Harvey Weinstein issue but because if you listen to how women talk about how they were expected to tolerate behavior, to accommodate it, to work around it and how little any of that did in the way of protecting them. It's a small, very small taste of what girls grow up hearing, absorbing, incorporating into their behavior. Not to make a fuss. Not to expect to have boundaries. Not to expect to be believed. Just to expect and be prepared and to deal with it on your own. In silence.
Though I believe you genuinely do, I don't understand how you can care about the actual issue of sexual abuse of women by men in positions of power, and come to the conclusion that trans women in gym locker rooms, who in terms of social privilege basically the exact opposite of a man like Harvey Weinstein, are the real problem here. You can heap whatever persecutions you like on trans women, and it will not make anyone an iota safer. Not women, not men, nor anyone else. They aren't the group most likely to commit those kinds of crimes, nor is it an effective approach to crime to just blindly persecute entire classes of people on the basis of what some of them have allegedly done, even if they were. By criminalizing the actions of the innocent while turning a blind eye to the crimes of guilty, we make things worse out there for everyone, not better.
Two things here.

First, if we accept your premise that transgender identified males represent no risk to women whatsoever and would never sexually assault or abuse women ever... We still have the problem of not being able to tell whether any given male-bodied person is a transwoman or not. Let me give you a more explicit scenario. Assume there is a locker room where women are regularly unclothed. Two male-bodied people enter that locker room. One of them is a perfectly harmless transwoman, who is non-op and non-HRT. The other one is a predator who wants to get off on seeing naked women and making them uncomfortable. Let's even assume that anyone who looks like a male gets asked on their way in "Are you a transwoman?".

Do you think that the predator, who is intentionally transgressing women's boundaries, is going to be honest? If he lies, how do we tell that he is lying and that the other person is not?

Secondly... I think your premise is based on a desired narrative. There have now been studies in England, Scotland, Canada, and IIRC California. The percentage of transwomen who are serving time for sexual crimes is significantly higher than that of men in general. I don't recall the exact numbers, but it's something like 5% of men are incarcerated for sexual crimes, and about 40% of transwomen.

Now - let me be very clear here. This does not necessarily mean that transwomen offend at rates higher than men. I think it's far more likely that sexual predators are likely to falsely identify as trans while incarcerated, in a play to get moved to a female prison. But that does bring me right back around to the very heart of the problem: Self-ID.

I don't have a problem with transwomen. There are several that I know personally and rather like. What I have a problem with is Self-ID. That's the problem. The problem is that policies are being written and enacted right now, where any man who says they are trans is granted legal access to female-only spaces... with no oversight, no way to verify that they're not bad actors, and no consideration at all given for the risk and discomfort this places on women. And absolutely zero thought given the the basic concept of consent. It creates an incentive for bad actors to declare themselves trans, because by doing so they are immune to accusations of acting badly when they look at naked women against their will, or when they expose themselves to women without their consent. It legalizes peeping and flashing. And it creates a situation where no prevention is possible... and the only recourse women have is to report an assault after it happens. And when only about 1% or reported sexual assaults ever get convicted, that's pretty much giving a 99% free pass for men to behave badly without consequence.

Self ID has a gigantic gaping loophole that is visible from space.

But women are being told, over and over and over, mostly by men, that we should pretend that we're not aware of that loophole, and we should just pretend that there's no risk... and well... if it turns out down the road that "too many" women get hurt because of this giant loophole... then maybe the menfolk will reconsider it then. But until then, we should just shut up, be nice, and know our places.
I strongly question that 40% of convicted sex offenders are/identify as /claim to be trans women.

I agree that in this thread I’m being told that women are just too emotional and need to get over it.

And that I’m stigmatizing a more marginalized group. I’m not sure how that is true but a man said it so it must be true, I guess. Because we know we can’t trust women.
 
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