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General Poetry Discussion

Re: open mic - ruminations

While I did at least dip my pinky toe into the waters of formal publishing, and achieved a very grand level of total obscurity :D , I never even came close to reading my poems anywhere. Indeed, I've never even attended a poetry reading.

It isn't as if I declined on invitations, or avoided readings strategically; I was never aware of readings anywhere within miles, nor did I seek them out. To describe my feelings about that accurately, I would have to say that my interest in attending poetry readings is on par with any random person's who detests poetry. I literally have less than zero interest: the interest is in the negative, bordering on revulsion.

Poetry has always been an intensely private thing for me. For one thing, I am an introverted, solitary soul to begin with. I vividly remember poring over the poems in the high school text book I had. I was in my room, on my bed, reading a handful of poems over and over and over: Robert Frost, E.A. Robinson, Tennyson, Shakespeare. I would comb through every line, count syllables, beats, feet, note feminine endings, note metrical substitutions. I had a love affair with the English language, and with poetry, and the names of the great poets were as sacred to me as the names of the saints and martyrs were to the devout. Seriously! That's how it was.

When I heard a recording in the high school library of Ezra Pound reading his famous poem, Sestina: Altaforte, I was aghast at how it sounded. Pound affected some kind of grand oratorical accent, not British, but close. He was born in Idaho. Where did that ridiculous voice come from? I thought. Why would he read like that? It turned me off from ever wanting to hear a poet read their work. You can listen for yourself on YouTube to get a sense of what I'm talking about.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=beju5dJpeds

Remember I said that poetry was intensely private to me; and here I was hearing a vocal rendering of a poem I had read dozens of times, a poem that had its own rhythm and cadence in my own mind, its own particular sound and texture. The reading by Pound had shocked me - that my conception of the rhythm and tone of a poem could be so drastically different than its author's own conception.

Over time, I became a bit more amenable to public readings of poetry. One of the poets I actually enjoy to hear reading his poetry is the late Derek Walcott. He was from St. Lucia, but loved the English language passionately, and paid tribute to it with his excellent poetry. I saw a program on PBS in New York many years ago featuring a few well known poets and some of their readings. I already loved Walcott, but when I heard him read, he salved the wound that Pound had dealt by rendering his poems in a manner commensurate with my own private conception of it.

This has gone too long...

To be continued...
 
See post #61 as well

I'm going to go ahead and drop another full preview to my recently published book in this thread - here. This is the final version without any copy errors. I assume most of us have more pressing things to attend to, but this at least gives a few people a chance to take a look at the final version if / when time permits.

I also decided to keep it up on Amazon here. I purposely priced the book way too high for a few reasons - the first being that the book represents about eight years of work, so in my view it's content is actually worth that price. I know no one will buy at that cost, but I'd rather have the integrity of valuing my own work, than pandering for people to buy it. The book is also very personal, so on some level it discourages voyeuristic purchases.

If I could go back and have a do over I'd likely change a few pieces and a few lines - but these kind of mistakes happen when you're trying to perfect about 80 poems within the course of a few months.

If anyone gets a chance to take a look I'd love to hear some feedback, either public or private.

Just want to let you know I plan on buying your book soon. I just now checked out the "look inside" feature, but the sample didn't get to the actual poems.

Actually that's better than the alternative. I've looked inside some books with this feature and found that I could scroll through what must have been thirty or forty pages. A little much just as a "sample".
 
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I'm going to go ahead and drop another full preview to my recently published book in this thread - here. This is the final version without any copy errors. I assume most of us have more pressing things to attend to, but this at least gives a few people a chance to take a look at the final version if / when time permits.

I also decided to keep it up on Amazon here. I purposely priced the book way too high for a few reasons - the first being that the book represents about eight years of work, so in my view it's content is actually worth that price. I know no one will buy at that cost, but I'd rather have the integrity of valuing my own work, than pandering for people to buy it. The book is also very personal, so on some level it discourages voyeuristic purchases.

If I could go back and have a do over I'd likely change a few pieces and a few lines - but these kind of mistakes happen when you're trying to perfect about 80 poems within the course of a few months.

If anyone gets a chance to take a look I'd love to hear some feedback, either public or private.

Just want to let you know I plan on buying your book soon. I just now checked out the "look inside" feature, but the sample didn't get to the actual poems.

Actually that's better than the alternative. I've looked inside some books with this feature and found that I could scroll through what must have been thirty or forty pages. A little much just as a "sample".
That's much appreciated. I would add that if you do plan on buying it I would do so from Amazon. I've corrected copy errors on that version, it's the same price as Blurb, and I'll make ten dollars as opposed to the zero from Blurb.

The link can be found here:

https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Love-Selected-Poems-2006-ebook/dp/B08M5CB412/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1
 
While I did at least dip my pinky toe into the waters of formal publishing, and achieved a very grand level of total obscurity :D , I never even came close to reading my poems anywhere. Indeed, I've never even attended a poetry reading.

It isn't as if I declined on invitations, or avoided readings strategically; I was never aware of readings anywhere within miles, nor did I seek them out. To describe my feelings about that accurately, I would have to say that my interest in attending poetry readings is on par with any random person's who detests poetry. I literally have less than zero interest: the interest is in the negative, bordering on revulsion.

Poetry has always been an intensely private thing for me. For one thing, I am an introverted, solitary soul to begin with. I vividly remember poring over the poems in the high school text book I had. I was in my room, on my bed, reading a handful of poems over and over and over: Robert Frost, E.A. Robinson, Tennyson, Shakespeare. I would comb through every line, count syllables, beats, feet, note feminine endings, note metrical substitutions. I had a love affair with the English language, and with poetry, and the names of the great poets were as sacred to me as the names of the saints and martyrs were to the devout. Seriously! That's how it was.

When I heard a recording in the high school library of Ezra Pound reading his famous poem, Sestina: Altaforte, I was aghast at how it sounded. Pound affected some kind of grand oratorical accent, not British, but close. He was born in Idaho. Where did that ridiculous voice come from? I thought. Why would he read like that? It turned me off from ever wanting to hear a poet read their work. You can listen for yourself on YouTube to get a sense of what I'm talking about.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=beju5dJpeds

Remember I said that poetry was intensely private to me; and here I was hearing a vocal rendering of a poem I had read dozens of times, a poem that had its own rhythm and cadence in my own mind, its own particular sound and texture. The reading by Pound had shocked me - that my conception of the rhythm and tone of a poem could be so drastically different than its author's own conception.

Over time, I became a bit more amenable to public readings of poetry. One of the poets I actually enjoy to hear reading his poetry is the late Derek Walcott. He was from St. Lucia, but loved the English language passionately, and paid tribute to it with his excellent poetry. I saw a program on PBS in New York many years ago featuring a few well known poets and some of their readings. I already loved Walcott, but when I heard him read, he salved the wound that Pound had dealt by rendering his poems in a manner commensurate with my own private conception of it.

This has gone too long...

To be continued...

I too was taken aback when I first heard a recording of Pound reading. I think the bombast may be a reflection of an older style of public readings, from before recordings and radio, when public readings were more entertainment than education. Today, poetry slams, featuring what has come to be almost a genre in itself ( known as “slam poetry” needless to say), fulfill the same role, as entertainment. There’s a good deal of expressiveness in the slam readings I have attended.

I listened to a recording of Yeats reading here. It isn’t bombast, but is certainly mannered. In his introduction he explains why he reads that way: "It isn't prose!"

That’s not like readers today at all, who tend to be more understated, to let the poetry speak over the performance.

I’ve found readings to be a good way to hear new work by well-known poets and build rapport with the community of lesser-known local poets. Community may be what you have sought online, WAB. So I have been to many readings and enjoyed most of them. I met my wife at a poetry reading. She was reading her stuff and it blew me away. I’ve also read my stuff at readings. When it works it can be kind of a rush.

I have benefited greatly from participating in communities of poets. I have also benefited greatly from workshops, where an established poet leads a group of aspiring poets to discuss their work. Both are great way to hone one’s craft and get immediate feedback on what’s working and what’s not working.

And when I was writing a lot of poetry, I guess I was motivated partly by the quest for recognition. Not from the public at large – I was not a fool – but from the small group of my fellow poets and poetry lovers. My one major published piece garnered me one fan, a young man who sought me out to tell me how much he liked it. I also got many compliments from my peers. I’d be lying to say I didn’t appreciate the attention.
 
That's much appreciated. I would add that if you do plan on buying it I would do so from Amazon. I've corrected copy errors on that version, it's the same price as Blurb, and I'll make ten dollars as opposed to the zero from Blurb.

The link can be found here:

https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Love-Selected-Poems-2006-ebook/dp/B08M5CB412/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1

Just downloaded (Kindle version since I'm downsizing and strictly limiting the number of actual books I own). I'm looking forward to it.
 
That's much appreciated. I would add that if you do plan on buying it I would do so from Amazon. I've corrected copy errors on that version, it's the same price as Blurb, and I'll make ten dollars as opposed to the zero from Blurb.

The link can be found here:

https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Love-Selected-Poems-2006-ebook/dp/B08M5CB412/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1

Just downloaded (Kindle version since I'm downsizing and strictly limiting the number of actual books I own). I'm looking forward to it.
Thanks I appreciate that. Apologies in advance for any quality issues. I exported from Blurb and imported right to Amazon. I believe the content will be fine but it might look a bit rough. Unfortunately I haven't really had the time to smooth out those edges.

I believe the Kindle version has one copy error in 'She Changed I Changed'. Watched and watched should be 'waited and watched'. I plan to correct that eventually in Kindle but haven't done so yet

I will also note that I'm having buyer's remorse over renaming 'The Blonde' to 'Toil Over Her Soul'. I plan to change the name back and issue an update some time soon.
 
To WAB, the print and Kindle versions have now both been fixed, copy errors and the poem title I wanted to change. I believe Amazon needs to do a review, and the correct versions should be available in a few days. I can update this thread when that's the case.
 
Getting back briefly to the subject of humorous poetry, I’ll point out that a number of “serious” poets have written humorous pieces. Alexander Pope’s “Rape of the Lock” and Thomas Gray’s “Ode on the Death of a Favorite Cat Drowned in a Tub of Goldfish” come to mind.

Back when I was very young (early twenties) I was a very serious student of poetry much influenced by the Modernists. So when I was living alone in a log house in the Monashee mountains of British Columbia I produced a small chapbook of poems, at least one of which was intended to be humorous. It's written in the voice of a logger. Anyway the title was supposed to be ironic.

Monashee Spring

‘It might as well break up
and get it over with. I’ve
seen it all before – then
late March and twenty below.
So we’ve shut down, restrictions
are in force you know, it just don’t pay
to run half loads, and one of my boys
gone ripped the plates clean off
the D6 Cat today in 5,6 feet of mud.
I had to call the D9 there to
winch her out.
So we’ve shut down. At that we only
went one month, a million feet or so,
not much, so we’ll be back, as soon as
bloody break up gets it over with
itself.’
 
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Humorous poetry? There is none better than by that inimitable bard, Steve Martin, with his grand poem, "Pointy Birds':

Pointy birds,
So pointy pointy;
Anoint my head,
Anointy-nointy.

I submit, there is no funnier poem than that.

Well, let's see if I can find Robert Graves' The Caves of Arta, in my view the funniest poem in English. Trouble will be, finding the dang thing...

:joy:
 
Humorous poetry? There is none better than by that inimitable bard, Steve Martin, with his grand poem, "Pointy Birds':

Pointy birds,
So pointy pointy;
Anoint my head,
Anointy-nointy.

I submit, there is no funnier poem than that.

Well, let's see if I can find Robert Graves' The Caves of Arta, in my view the funniest poem in English. Trouble will be, finding the dang thing...

:joy:

Found it (wasn't hard):

“¡Wellcome, to the Caves of Arta!”

'They are hollowed out in the see-coast at the muncipal terminal of Capdepera at nine kilometer from the town of Arta in the Island of Mallorca, with a stuporizing infinity of graceful colums of 21 meter and by downward, which prives the spectator of all animacion and plunges in dumbness. The way going is very picturesque, serpentine between style mountains, til the arrival at the esplanade of the vallee called “The Spiders”. There are good enlacements of the railroad with autobuses of excursion, many days of the week, today actually Wednesday and Satturday. Since many centuries renown foreing visitors have explored them and wrote their elegy about, included Nort-American geoglogues.' [From a tourist guide]

Such subtile filigranity and nobless of construccion
Here fraternise in harmony, that respiracion stops.
While all admit thier impotence (though autors most formidable)
To sing in words the excellence of Nature's underprops,
Yet stalactite and stalagmite together with dumb language
Make hymnes to God wich celebrate the stregnth of water drops.

¿You, also, are you capable to make precise in idiom
Consideracions magic of ilusions very wide?
Already in the Vestibule of these Grand Caves of Arta
The spirit of the human verb is darked and stupefied;
So humildy you trespass trough the forest of the colums
And listen to the grandess explicated by the guide.

From darkness into darkness, but at measure, now descending
You remark with what esxactitude he designates each bent;
“The Saloon of Thousand Banners”, or “The Tumba of Napoleon”,
“The Grotto of the Rosary”, “The Club”, “The Camping Tent”,
And at “Cavern of the Organs” there are knocking strange formacions
Wich give a nois particular pervoking wonderment.

Too far do not adventure, sir! For, further as you wander,
The every of the stalactites will make you stop and stay.
Grand peril amenaces now, your nostrills aprehending
An odour least delicious of lamentable decay.
It is poor touristers, in the depth of obscure cristal,
Wich deceased of thier emocion on a past excursion day.

- Robert Graves
 
To WAB, the print and Kindle versions have now both been fixed, copy errors and the poem title I wanted to change. I believe Amazon needs to do a review, and the correct versions should be available in a few days. I can update this thread when that's the case.

You should be good to go now on both the paperback and kindle. I appreciate both of you giving me the kick to fix the last few remaining errors.

Mainly, I wanted to get a hardcover copy that was actually complete myself. I've already spent way too much money on proof-copies, but for a project I enjoyed completing this much I'll bite it.
 
Now here is a reading I truly love. And it's a magnificent poem.

Allen Ginsberg reads "Wales Visitation" to William F. Buckley and audience:

Go to about 17:20...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vBpoZBhvBa4

Tharmas & rousseau, I think you might like this. Or you've already seen (heard) it.

Thanks for this - I hadn't heard it before. Ah those long lines. I only heard Ginsberg read twice, both when he was a bit older, and he accompanied himself with a small harmonium, I think it's called, and actually had a small band behind him.

I'm also remembering when Buckley was the voice of American conservatism. Those days are long gone I guess. Can you imagine Tucker Carlson doing that interview?
 
Now here is a reading I truly love. And it's a magnificent poem.

Allen Ginsberg reads "Wales Visitation" to William F. Buckley and audience:

Go to about 17:20...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vBpoZBhvBa4

Tharmas & rousseau, I think you might like this. Or you've already seen (heard) it.

Thanks for this - I hadn't heard it before. Ah those long lines. I only heard Ginsberg read twice, both when he was a bit older, and he accompanied himself with a small harmonium, I think it's called, and actually had a small band behind him.

I'm also remembering when Buckley was the voice of American conservatism. Those days are long gone I guess. Can you imagine Tucker Carlson doing that interview?

Yes, those long lines. I am going to be studying the Blake-Whitman-Ginsberg axis. It's almost as if it were meant to be. At the very least, Ginsberg seems like the logical consummation of Blake and Whitman.
 
Yes, those long lines. I am going to be studying the Blake-Whitman-Ginsberg axis. It's almost as if it were meant to be. At the very least, Ginsberg seems like the logical consummation of Blake and Whitman.

The Blake/Whitman/Ginsberg axis is a very interesting one. I don’t know how many details you’re aware of, but it’s a great story.

Blake was virtually unknown in his own lifetime, save for a few minor artists in his old age, of whom John Linnell was the best known, and who preserved many of Blake’s manuscripts and drawings. Blake remained obscure for about thirty plus years after his death until his large personal notebook ended up in the hands of Dante Gabriel Rossetti, who declared Blake a saint and founded the pre-Raphaelite school based partly on Blake’s theories of art (hence the name, for example).

So Blake became a cult figure in the middle of the nineteenth century. A certain Alexander Gilchrist undertook the task of writing his biography and producing an edition of his poems, in two volumes. Unfortunately Gilchrist died suddenly before his work was finished, but his widow Ann completed it and it was printed in 1861 I believe.

Now another cult figure in London at that time was Walt Whitman, and Ann Gilchrist was particularly taken with him. So she up and travelled to America to look him up. It turns out she used to sit and read Blake’s poetry to Whitman, who of course had no romantic interest in her, but who must have been impressed by Blake.

Another poet influenced by Blake was of course Yeats, who contacted Linnell’s two daughters, very ancient by Yeats’ time, but who fondly remembered Blake who used to bounce them on his knee and recite/sing Songs of Innocence to them. They possessed Blake’s trunk which included all of Blake’s papers (including for instance the only copy of that enormous work The Four Zoas), which they turned over to Yeats. But that’s another story.

Now enter Allen Ginsberg, who certainly would have known Whitman and Yeats, as well as of course Blake. Ginsberg as a young man, before he became a famous poet, had a vision of Blake. This was during daytime, in New York, and Ginsberg was wide awake. “Sunflower Sutra” came out of that vision.

So that’s my version of the historical arc of Blake to Ginsberg. The poetic arc is something else of course. Enjoy your exploration!
 
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Yes, those long lines. I am going to be studying the Blake-Whitman-Ginsberg axis. It's almost as if it were meant to be. At the very least, Ginsberg seems like the logical consummation of Blake and Whitman.

The Blake/Whitman/Ginsberg axis is a very interesting one. I don’t know how many details you’re aware of, but it’s a great story.

Blake was virtually unknown in his own lifetime, save for a few minor artists in his old age, of whom John Linnell was the best known, and who preserved many of Blake’s manuscripts and drawings. Blake remained obscure for about thirty plus years after his death until his large personal notebook ended up in the hands of Dante Gabriel Rossetti, who declared Blake a saint and founded the pre-Raphaelite school based partly on Blake’s theories of art (hence the name, for example).

So Blake became a cult figure in the middle of the nineteenth century. A certain Alexander Gilchrist undertook the task of writing his biography and producing an edition of his poems, in two volumes. Unfortunately Gilchrist died suddenly before his work was finished, but his widow Ann completed it and it was printed in 1861 I believe.

Now another cult figure in London at that time was Walt Whitman, and Ann Gilchrist was particularly taken with him. So she up and travelled to America to look him up. It turns out she used to sit and read Blake’s poetry to Whitman, who of course had no romantic interest in her, but who must have been impressed by Blake.

Another poet influenced by Blake was of course Yeats, who contacted Linnell’s two daughters, very ancient by Yeats’ time, but who fondly remembered Blake who used to bounce them on his knee and recite/sing Songs of Innocence to them. They possessed Blake’s trunk which included all of Blake’s papers (including for instance the only copy of that enormous work The Four Zoas), which they turned over to Yeats. But that’s another story.

Now enter Allen Ginsberg, who certainly would have known Whitman and Yeats, as well as of course Blake. Ginsberg as a young man, before he became a famous poet, had a vision of Blake. This was during daytime, in New York, and Ginsberg was wide awake. “Sunflower Sutra” came out of that vision.

So that’s my version of the historical arc of Blake to Ginsberg. The poetic arc is something else of course. Enjoy your exploration!

I know quite a bit about it, but now I know more. Thanks, Tharmas.

Have I ever mentioned that my username at PFFA was Urizen?

Blake is STILL underappreciated, in my opinion.
 
So I've signed up for Eratosphere. I've made a few critiques now, but am debating whether I'll actually post anything of my own. I have no doubt it'll be helpful, but realistically there are more important things to fill my mind with at the moment than the quality or lack thereof of my poetry. I have enjoyed reading the poems of others and analyzing them, though.

I've been a bit surprised since self-publishing over the degree that my motivation to write has dropped off. If my community was receptive to the genre, or I had literally any audience at all, I might be inclined to try a little harder, but the extrinsic motivation just isn't there, and so my intrinsic motivation is dropping off. In a lot of respects I've also already said most of what I want to say with the form, and am just not that inspired lately. Laziness and rest is feeling more appealing than poring over poetry. I have written a bit, but have expended very little effort towards it basically since the Fall.
 
So I've signed up for Eratosphere. I've made a few critiques now, but am debating whether I'll actually post anything of my own. I have no doubt it'll be helpful, but realistically there are more important things to fill my mind with at the moment than the quality or lack thereof of my poetry. I have enjoyed reading the poems of others and analyzing them, though.

I've been a bit surprised since self-publishing over the degree that my motivation to write has dropped off. If my community was receptive to the genre, or I had literally any audience at all, I might be inclined to try a little harder, but the extrinsic motivation just isn't there, and so my intrinsic motivation is dropping off. In a lot of respects I've also already said most of what I want to say with the form, and am just not that inspired lately. Laziness and rest is feeling more appealing than poring over poetry. I have written a bit, but have expended very little effort towards it basically since the Fall.

I am very happy to hear you have registered at Eratosphere, rousseau. I really am. It's okay if you want to take it slow, do that. In fact, I think that is the best thing for you in your particular circumstances. You are a good man, and you are not going to sacrifice your family and your core values in order to get on a frenetic fast track to gratification of a dream or aspiration.

A couple hours a few days a week is all you will need in order to give critique and receive critique at the Sphere. I look forward to watching your progress. I can't be involved because I was banned from the Sphere for being a douchebag and reacting too severely to one of the mods. I was in one of my alcohol-fuelled manic phases, and I was being quite the ass.

But I can still read there. Mark McDonnell is one of my friends there, and Bill Carpenter, who has just published an epic poem about King Alfred.

More later...
 
So I've signed up for Eratosphere. I've made a few critiques now, but am debating whether I'll actually post anything of my own. I have no doubt it'll be helpful, but realistically there are more important things to fill my mind with at the moment than the quality or lack thereof of my poetry. I have enjoyed reading the poems of others and analyzing them, though.

I've been a bit surprised since self-publishing over the degree that my motivation to write has dropped off. If my community was receptive to the genre, or I had literally any audience at all, I might be inclined to try a little harder, but the extrinsic motivation just isn't there, and so my intrinsic motivation is dropping off. In a lot of respects I've also already said most of what I want to say with the form, and am just not that inspired lately. Laziness and rest is feeling more appealing than poring over poetry. I have written a bit, but have expended very little effort towards it basically since the Fall.

I am very happy to hear you have registered at Eratosphere, rousseau. I really am. It's okay if you want to take it slow, do that. In fact, I think that is the best thing for you in your particular circumstances. You are a good man, and you are not going to sacrifice your family and your core values in order to get on a frenetic fast track to gratification of a dream or aspiration.

A couple hours a few days a week is all you will need in order to give critique and receive critique at the Sphere. I look forward to watching your progress. I can't be involved because I was banned from the Sphere for being a douchebag and reacting too severely to one of the mods. I was in one of my alcohol-fuelled manic phases, and I was being quite the ass.

But I can still read there. Mark McDonnell is one of my friends there, and Bill Carpenter, who has just published an epic poem about King Alfred.

More later...

I have a particular internet strategy these days where I try to avoid discussion that takes up mental real estate. There are many threads at Talk Freethought that I won't touch with a ten foot pole because I know I'll just get dragged into conversations that I really don't care about, and will end up spending undue attention thinking about them.

Similarly with Eratosphere, I fear the critiques taking up mental real estate in my day to day life, and becoming a distraction from more important things. Right now my son is on the cusp of language so continuing to teach him seems like the better direction to channel that focus.

Keep an eye, though, if I do decide to post something of my own I'll let you know. In the mean-time I'll be bringing my particular brand of awkwardness to non-metrical :).
 
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This is one of my all time favorite poems. No really. I love it. I wish I had written it. Shows what can be done with free verse, although there is quite obviously a great deal of restraint. Perhaps restraint, in this case limiting word choices for the sake of brevity, shortening the lines, is a good tool for free verse as well as formal.


Pastoral

When I was younger
it was plain to me
I must make something of myself.
Older now
I walk back streets
admiring the houses
of the very poor:
roof out of line with sides
the yards cluttered
with old chicken wire, ashes,
furniture gone wrong;
the fences and outhouses
built of barrel staves
and parts of boxes, all,
if I am fortunate,
smeared a bluish green
that properly weathered
pleases me best of all colors

No one
will believe this
of vast import to the nation

- William Carlos Williams
 
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