George Floyd murderer's trial

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Day 13

That defense witness, Dr David Fowler, a forensic pathologist seems to be the big story of the day. Here are two excerpts from two news sources that are interesting.

During his cross examination, prosecuting attorney Jerry Blackwell sought to shake the jury's faith in Fowler's credibility, asking a series of questions to which the pathologist was forced to admit he did not know the answer or had a flawed recollection of the events on May 25, 2020, leading to Floyd's death.

Blackwell first questioned Fowler about the various studies he relied on for his report in determining Floyd's cause of death. The prosecution noted, none of those Fowler referenced involved a victim who had been held in the prone position with the weight of three grown men on top of him for nearly 9 and half minutes.

Fowler agreed they did not.

Blackwell also challenged Fowler's earlier testimony that the absence of bruising on Floyd's neck and back from Chauvin's knees and body weight, as well as that of the other officers, means that they did not cause the 46-year-old's death.

Fowler conceded that in the majority of asphyxia deaths, autopsies often find no physical evidence of bruising or other traumatic injuries.

"In a substantial number of cases" that is true, he said.

...

But one of the most damaging moments for the defense was when Fowler testified that even after Floyd appeared to have lost consciousness after suffering cardiac arrest — about 4 to 5 minutes into the grueling 9 and a half minute restraint — he might been revived had he received immediate medical attention.

"When there is a space between cardiac arrest and between the actual death, are you suggesting that, though Mr. Floyd may have been in cardiac arrest, there was a time when he may have been revived because he wasn't dead yet?," Blackwell asked.

"Immediate medical attention for a person who's gone into cardiac arrest may well reverse that process," Fowler replied.

"Do you feel that Mr. Floyd should have been given immediate emergency attention to try to reverse the cardiac arrest?"

"As a physician, I would agree," he said.

"Are you critical of the fact that he wasn't given immediate emergency care when he went into cardiac arrest?"

"As a physician, I would agree," Fowler repeated.

https://www.npr.org/sections/trial-...nse-testimony-resumes-in-derek-chauvins-trial

One of the other exchanges involved Dr Fowler's unsupported assertion that Floyd's lack of oxygen was due to carbon monoxide poisoning from car exhaust. You can read part of that from the link above, but here also is another part of that exchange:

Answering questions from Blackwell, Fowler agreed there was no finding of carbon monoxide in Floyd's body because no tests were done. Blackwell then asked Fowler if he knew for a fact that the squad car was running at the time Floyd was restrained. Fowler replied he believed the car was running because he saw water dripping from the tail pipe.

"You simply assumed, seeing something dripping from a tailpipe, that the car had to be on?" Blackwell asked.

""It's not an assumption," Fowler replied. "It's an evaluation that in my mind indicates the vehicle was running."

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/derek-chauvin-trial-george-floyd-death-2021-04-14/

There is much more at both links.

 

[Shadowy Man]

If you search on “water dripping from exhaust” you find that most links describe this can happen after the engine has been off and the system has cooled down such that condensation causes the dripping.

So the doctor is testifying outside of his expertise here.

 

[Gospel]

"As a physician, I would agree." Just say "I agree" bruh.

 

[ZiprHead]

Day 13 live video:
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34jeEJJrgy8[/YOUTUBE]

Forensic pathologist Dr David Fowler now testifying for the defense.

I listened to some of that in the car. The prosecutor fileted him like a fish.

Yup. I was impressed at the prosecutor's skill to get the defense's witness to concede many points, including multiple-stepped inferences from questioning his testimony.

I guess that's the kind of testimony one gets for $11,500 nowadays.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Yup. I was impressed at the prosecutor's skill to get the defense's witness to concede many points, including multiple-stepped inferences from questioning his testimony.

I guess that's the kind of testimony one gets for $11,500 nowadays.

In the defense expert's defense, he needs every single one of those $ because he's got a big lawsuit on his hands where he's being sued for possibly being involved in a police coverup.

Eerily similar to the Floyd case...

 

[barbos]

I am not a medical doctor but I think I more less agree with Dr David Fowler that death was not caused by the force on the neck.
It looks bad on the video but really has no effect in itself. What I think is more important is the fact that Floyd was in a position where his chest was constrained, combined with the fact that he was under stress which requires higher oxygen intake. And of course his bad heart.
Neck thing is irrelevant.

 

[Swammerdami]

In the defense expert's defense, he needs every single one of those $ because he's got a big lawsuit on his hands where he's being sued for possibly being involved in a police coverup.

Eerily similar to the Floyd case...

Interesting. Is the prosecution in the Chauvin case allowed to bring this to the jury's attention? Would that be "unfair"? Or is it the suppression of this useful information that is actually unfair?

 

[Gospel]

I am not a medical doctor but I think I more less agree with Dr David Fowler that death was not caused by the force on the neck.
It looks bad on the video but really has no effect in itself. What I think is more important is the fact that Floyd was in a position where his chest was constrained, combined with the fact that he was under stress which requires higher oxygen intake. And of course his bad heart.
Neck thing is irrelevant.

What testimony were you watching? Dr. David Fowler agreed that after 4 minutes of the knee in that position the brain would be deprived of oxygen. Dude had the "neck thing" going for well over that amount of time. To say the "neck thing" is errelivant is..... spooky speak.

 

[barbos]

I am not a medical doctor but I think I more less agree with Dr David Fowler that death was not caused by the force on the neck.
It looks bad on the video but really has no effect in itself. What I think is more important is the fact that Floyd was in a position where his chest was constrained, combined with the fact that he was under stress which requires higher oxygen intake. And of course his bad heart.
Neck thing is irrelevant.

What testimony were you watching? Dr. David Fowler agreed that after 4 minutes of the knee in that position the brain would be deprived of oxygen. Dude had the "neck thing" going for well over that amount of time. .

What testimony were YOU watching?
He explicitly said in that particular case it was irrelevant. As for 4 minutes, I call it it total BS. if it were true, MMA fighters would have simply been waiting for the end of round, in reality they lose consciousness in like 10-15 seconds. Hell, old people with crappy vascular system lose consciousness from standing up too quickly, immediately. Floyd needed more oxygen in his lungs, but was not getting it because he was in awkward position

 

[Gospel]

I am not a medical doctor but I think I more less agree with Dr David Fowler that death was not caused by the force on the neck.
It looks bad on the video but really has no effect in itself. What I think is more important is the fact that Floyd was in a position where his chest was constrained, combined with the fact that he was under stress which requires higher oxygen intake. And of course his bad heart.
Neck thing is irrelevant.

What testimony were you watching? Dr. David Fowler agreed that after 4 minutes of the knee in that position the brain would be deprived of oxygen. Dude had the "neck thing" going for well over that amount of time. .

What testimony were YOU watching?
He explicitly said in that particular case it was irrelevant. As for 4 minutes, I call it it total BS. if it were true, MMA fighters would simply be waiting for the end of round, in reality they lose consciousness in like 10-15 seconds. Hell, old people with crappy vascular system lose consciousness from standing up too quickly, immediately.

MMA fighters lose consciousness in 10-15 seconds yet 4 minutes of the knee on neck is irrelevant. You just gave ZiprHead a run for the money in jokes. I don't think you understand the chain of questions and the overall picture the prosecution intended to draw from Dr David Fowler's testimony.

 

[barbos]

What testimony were YOU watching?
He explicitly said in that particular case it was irrelevant. As for 4 minutes, I call it it total BS. if it were true, MMA fighters would simply be waiting for the end of round, in reality they lose consciousness in like 10-15 seconds. Hell, old people with crappy vascular system lose consciousness from standing up too quickly, immediately.

MMA fighters lose consciousness in 10-15 seconds yet 4 minutes of the knee on neck is irrelevant.

Yes, if neck thing was relevant Floyd would have stopped talking in 10 seconds, but he did not, therefore it was irrelevant. He died from a heart attack.

In fact, defense should just show few MMA fights which ended with neck thing.

 

[Gospel]

What testimony were YOU watching?
He explicitly said in that particular case it was irrelevant. As for 4 minutes, I call it it total BS. if it were true, MMA fighters would simply be waiting for the end of round, in reality they lose consciousness in like 10-15 seconds. Hell, old people with crappy vascular system lose consciousness from standing up too quickly, immediately.

MMA fighters lose consciousness in 10-15 seconds yet 4 minutes of the knee on neck is irrelevant.

Yes, if neck thing was relevant Floyd would have stopped talking in 10 seconds, but he did not, therefore it was irrelevant. He died from a heart attack.

In fact, defense should just show few MMA fights which ended with neck thing.

You have a point there. Gosh, I just don't think the knee made the situation better. When he went into a "cardiac event" as Fowler put it Floyd going unconscious became relaxed (for lack of a better term). It's like an MMA fighter in a chokehold going unconscious after having a "cardiac event" not caused by the chokehold but the chokehold being held for an additional 4 minutes after the fighter has gone lax won't help one bit.

 

[barbos]

Yes, if neck thing was relevant Floyd would have stopped talking in 10 seconds, but he did not, therefore it was irrelevant. He died from a heart attack.

In fact, defense should just show few MMA fights which ended with neck thing.

You have a point there. Gosh, I just don't think the knee made the situation better. When he went into a "cardiac event" as Fowler put it Floyd going unconscious became relaxed (for lack of a better term). It's like an MMA fighter in a chokehold going unconscious after having a "cardiac event" not caused by the chokehold but the chokehold being held for an additional 4 minutes after the fighter has gone lax won't help one bit.

MMA fighters don't have cardiac events. They lose consciousness because they have temporary loss of blood supply due to the neck being squeezed mercilessly. Unconsciousness people don't tend to talk. And MMA fights would have been much less interesting if one could choke-hold with simply placing a knee on an opponent's neck.
I am not defending Chauvin, he was a bad cop. But I bet it was not the first time he used this maneuver and nothing bad happened. Floyd had a bad heart and was on drugs, exerting himself fighting the police is what killed him. Police should learn from this, and they won't if you simply ignore the truth in this case.

 

[Gospel]

Yes, if neck thing was relevant Floyd would have stopped talking in 10 seconds, but he did not, therefore it was irrelevant. He died from a heart attack.

In fact, defense should just show few MMA fights which ended with neck thing.

You have a point there. Gosh, I just don't think the knee made the situation better. When he went into a "cardiac event" as Fowler put it Floyd going unconscious became relaxed (for lack of a better term). It's like an MMA fighter in a chokehold going unconscious after having a "cardiac event" not caused by the chokehold but the chokehold being held for an additional 4 minutes after the fighter has gone lax won't help one bit.

MMA fighters don't have cardiac events. They lose consciousness because they have temporary loss of blood supply due to the neck being squeezed mercilessly. Unconsciousness people don't tend to talk. And MMA fights would have been much less interesting if one could choke-hold with simply placing a knee on an opponent's neck.
I am not defending Chauvin, he was a bad cop. But I bet it was not the first time he used this maneuver and nothing bad happened. Floyd had a bad heart and was on drugs, exerting himself fighting the police is what killed him. Police should learn from this, and they won't if you simply ignore the truth in this case.

Thanks for clarifying that MMA fighters don't have cardiac events. While that may be true it wasn't the point I was trying to make. You seem bright, maybe you can come up with a better analogy for an officer physically restraining an unconscious person for 4 minutes. And, I'm not ignoring the truth I suppose my saying you have a point registered as something else, that's on you though.

 

[LoAmmo]

Jesus, the hyper-detailed medical minutiae we (collectively) are trying to finely string together into an explanation that isn't needed.
For fuck's sake--if I shoot a diabetic through the eye, guess what? He didn't die of diabetes.

 

[Gospel]

Jesus, the hyper-detailed medical minutiae we (collectively) are trying to finely string together into an explanation that isn't needed.
For fuck's sake--if I shoot a diabetic through the eye, guess what? He didn't die of diabetes.

The bad analogy police say if the diabetic is already in process of dying from a heart attack or stroke; yes diabetes was the cause of death. Your bullet while not helpful, is of no blame at all (granted it would have been better if you gave the diebetic an aspirin).

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Jesus, the hyper-detailed medical minutiae we (collectively) are trying to finely string together into an explanation that isn't needed.
For fuck's sake--if I shoot a diabetic through the eye, guess what? He didn't die of diabetes.

The bad analogy police say if the diabetic is already in process of dying from a heart attack or stroke; yes diabetes was the cause of death. Your bullet while not helpful, is of no blame at all (granted it would have been better if you gave the diebetic an aspirin).

That is definitely the police claim here. It gets absurd when we are asked to believe in a coincidence inconsistent with our observations.

Also...the whole pressure on chest thing. I can buy that part of barbos's argument, but it's not mutually exclusive to pressure on or near the neck. Or Fowler's car exhaust claim has the same issue. The officers would still be accountable for indifference to stopping and applying medical aid.

 

[barbos]

Jesus, the hyper-detailed medical minutiae we (collectively) are trying to finely string together into an explanation that isn't needed.
For fuck's sake--if I shoot a diabetic through the eye, guess what? He didn't die of diabetes.

The bad analogy police say if the diabetic is already in process of dying from a heart attack or stroke; yes diabetes was the cause of death. Your bullet while not helpful, is of no blame at all (granted it would have been better if you gave the diebetic an aspirin).

That is definitely the police claim here. It gets absurd when we are asked to believe in a coincidence inconsistent with our observations.

it's actually doubly absurd and not for the reason you think.
First, it can actually be a coincidence, just ask any mathematician they will explain it to you.
Secondly, the only people who claim coincidence are the "prosecution"
It was not coincidence, they guy with a bad heart and on drugs fought the police and had a heart attack. People are having heart attacks in sleep simply because they sleep on a wrong side.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

In the defense expert's defense, he needs every single one of those $ because he's got a big lawsuit on his hands where he's being sued for possibly being involved in a police coverup.

Eerily similar to the Floyd case...

Interesting. Is the prosecution in the Chauvin case allowed to bring this to the jury's attention? Would that be "unfair"? Or is it the suppression of this useful information that is actually unfair?

I am not sure. The jury should not need the info, though, to see how terrible a witness Fowler was.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

That is definitely the police claim here. It gets absurd when we are asked to believe in a coincidence inconsistent with our observations.

it's actually doubly absurd and not for the reason you think.
First, it can actually be a coincidence, just ask any mathematician they will explain it to you.
Secondly, the only people who claim coincidence are the "prosecution"
It was not coincidence, they guy with a bad heart and on drugs fought the police and had a heart attack. People are having heart attacks in sleep simply because they sleep on a wrong side.

Fought police? That's a stretch. Besides that, you seem to be leaving out a lot...like the fact Chauvin was on him so long while he was forced into a a position making him vulnerable.