Girls dealing with boys' sexual behavior

[prideandfall]

But isn’t there a possibility of finding a way to empathize with girls who must deal with hormonal boys who are inspired or deluded into believing that girls are happy or st least willing to service them just like in the pornos—and it’s their right to expect it and demand it.

yes, but by that same token isn't there a possibility of finding a way to empathize with boys who must deal with asexual girls who are won't service them in the way they expect?
i mean obviously from a measured adult standpoint the girls have it worse, i'm not suggesting the two circumstances are in any way equitable, but framing this purely as poor put-upon females against knowing predatory males is a bit hypocritical.
if we're advocating for healthy sexual relationships and lifelong sexual satisfaction for everyone, then the issue of men having erroneous expectations that will never be met and thus being some measure of sexually disappointed their entire lives IS a problem, both for men's health and for the stability of sexual relationships between men and women.
i think in this case the two issues are symbiotic, the fix for the one is the cure for the other.

my personal experience is that having access to porn from a very young age can and will normalize the idea of naked bodies and sex being a weird interesting things grownups do, so long as the kid isn't a fucking idiot.
i found my father's stash when i was about 4 and was viewing a 27 year old's hardcore porn from that age onwards, and i distinctly recall being 7 years old when i found out WWF wrestling was fake and having the realization that the porn must be the same way... it's made to look real, but it's all a production.

this whole porn thing and issue between the genders in terms of sexual dynamics is entirely a cultural problem, one born from puritanical attitudes and perpetuated by the inability of those puritanical behaviors to control a post-internet world.
stop hiding sex from kids, which gives them nowhere to turn to learn about it except from porn, which the adults treat as serious material which gives them the impression it's something realistic to pay attention to, which causes these attitudinal problems.
this really is the societal equivalent of letting your foot off the brake in order to regain control of a skid in the snow.

side note: maybe i'm just watching the wrong porn, but as someone who actively seeks out new porn to watch multiple times a week, primarily through free sites such as pornhub and the like, i have to disagree with the assertion that porn is getting more violent or more displaying sex as male dominant and female submissive.
while i've no doubt whatsoever there is a plethora of porn like this out there, i don't know that the mainstream side of porn (such as it is, sub-cultures within sub-cultures and such) is doing this, and so perhaps the the solution there is simply to push kids more towards mainstream porn.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

stop hiding sex from kids, which gives them nowhere to turn to learn about it except from porn, which the adults treat as serious material which gives them the impression it's something realistic to pay attention to, which causes these attitudinal problems.
this really is the societal equivalent of letting your foot off the brake in order to regain control of a skid in the snow.

Actually, there is a reason to hide some aspects of sex from young kids--to avoid them copying what they see being done.

 

[Angry Floof]

[

i mean obviously from a measured adult standpoint the girls have it worse, i'm not suggesting the two circumstances are in any way equitable, but framing this purely as poor put-upon females against knowing predatory males is a bit hypocritical.
if we're advocating for healthy sexual relationships and lifelong sexual satisfaction for everyone, then the issue of men having erroneous expectations that will never be met and thus being some measure of sexually disappointed their entire lives IS a problem, both for men's health and for the stability of sexual relationships between men and women.

Is it possible that it's time for grown fucking men to show boys how to be human? Is it possible that girls and women are not, after all, responsible for fixing men's and boy's behaviors? Is it possible that it's time to stop carrying on that tired and dangerous and unjust message?

Is it possible that it's time that grown fucking men notice their own jokes and casual lack of empathy toward girls and women? Is it possible that men can be responsible for their own attitudes and language? Will that ever be a possibility? Will boys and men ever have the humanity and wherewithal to notice that callousness is not strength? Is it possible for men and boys to stop signalling their toughness to each other through casual lack of empathy and jokes and messages like this one? Is it possible for men to allow each other any kind of emotion other than aggression or indifference?

We're not taking responsibility for your problems anymore. You can strive to be better humans without us taking the blame or responsibility for you not being human. Is that possible? Is it always and forever going to come down to "You're not stopping us or teaching us or being kind enough to us, so therefore our behavior is on you"? Are you really that oblivious that you can't figure out how waving aside a mountain of abuse and depraved treatment of girls and women to say, "But hey, it's on you to help us." Maybe we will and maybe we won't. It's on you to examine your own attitudes and what you signal to other men for boys to see and emulate. It's not on us. If we decide to help you learn to be better humans and self reflect and develop a sense of empathy, that's a gift to you. That's a fucking bonus, not an obligation. As long as you expect or demand anything from women and girls to teach men and boys how to be fully human, you are just continuing a poisonous culture of victim blaming and shirking your own responsibility.

We are done with "Well, you could be nicer to us... " Do you have the wherewithal to understand why that is and why it is dangerous to girls and women that you perpetuate this attitude?

 

[Metaphor]

Is it possible that it's time for grown fucking men to show boys how to be human? Is it possible that girls and women are not, after all, responsible for fixing men's and boy's behaviors? Is it possible that it's time to stop carrying on that tired and dangerous and unjust message?

The hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. Parents are responsible for raising their children, not "men".

Is it possible that it's time that grown fucking men notice their own jokes and casual lack of empathy toward girls and women? Is it possible that men can be responsible for their own attitudes and language? Will that ever be a possibility? Will boys and men ever have the humanity and wherewithal to notice that callousness is not strength? Is it possible for men and boys to stop signalling their toughness to each other through casual lack of empathy and jokes and messages like this one? Is it possible for men to allow each other any kind of emotion other than aggression or indifference?

Is it possible your wholesale derogation of men is slightly misandrist?

 

[bilby]

Is it possible that it's time for grown fucking men to show boys how to be human? Is it possible that girls and women are not, after all, responsible for fixing men's and boy's behaviors? Is it possible that it's time to stop carrying on that tired and dangerous and unjust message?

The hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. Parents are responsible for raising their children, not "men".

A significant proportion of parents are 'men'.

And parents are certainly not the only people responsible for the 'raising' of children and young adults.

 

[Angry Floof]

Is it possible that it's time for grown fucking men to show boys how to be human? Is it possible that girls and women are not, after all, responsible for fixing men's and boy's behaviors? Is it possible that it's time to stop carrying on that tired and dangerous and unjust message?

The hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. Parents are responsible for raising their children, not "men".

Is it possible that it's time that grown fucking men notice their own jokes and casual lack of empathy toward girls and women? Is it possible that men can be responsible for their own attitudes and language? Will that ever be a possibility? Will boys and men ever have the humanity and wherewithal to notice that callousness is not strength? Is it possible for men and boys to stop signalling their toughness to each other through casual lack of empathy and jokes and messages like this one? Is it possible for men to allow each other any kind of emotion other than aggression or indifference?

Is it possible your wholesale derogation of men is slightly misandrist?

We've been nice and accommodating to men throughout history. It's time for y'all to grow the fuck up. We're saying NO to the "be nice" bullshit. THAT is what gets your attention. Have the humanity and capacity for self reflection to understand why.

We have no choice but to be aware of all of humanity, men and women and everyone else. We don't have the luxury of ignoring half of humanity. But we do have the choice to not continue to contribute to the obliviousness and spoiled irresponsibility of males. Die mad about it.

 

[Metaphor]

Is it possible that it's time for grown fucking men to show boys how to be human? Is it possible that girls and women are not, after all, responsible for fixing men's and boy's behaviors? Is it possible that it's time to stop carrying on that tired and dangerous and unjust message?

The hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. Parents are responsible for raising their children, not "men".

A significant proportion of parents are 'men'.

And parents are certainly not the only people responsible for the 'raising' of children and young adults.

If your kids are feral, that's on you, not me.

 

[Metaphor]

We've been nice and accommodating to men throughout history. It's time for y'all to grow the fuck up. We're saying NO to the "be nice" bullshit. THAT is what gets your attention. Have the humanity and capacity for self reflection to understand why.

I'm not interested in you being "nice" to me. Frankly speaking, your friendship or even courtesy doesn't seem like something I'd value. But I am interested in entire groups not being tarred with the same brush, and when people do it I won't be silent about it.

We have no choice but to be aware of all of humanity, men and women and everyone else. We don't have the luxury of ignoring half of humanity. But we do have the choice to not continue to contribute to the obliviousness and spoiled irresponsibility of males. Die mad about it.

Die mad because an angry feminist on the internet hates men? I'ma decline that e-vite.

 

[Angry Floof]

We've been nice and accommodating to men throughout history. It's time for y'all to grow the fuck up. We're saying NO to the "be nice" bullshit. THAT is what gets your attention. Have the humanity and capacity for self reflection to understand why.

I'm not interested in you being "nice" to me. Frankly speaking, your friendship or even courtesy doesn't seem like something I'd value. But I am interested in entire groups not being tarred with the same brush, and when people do it I won't be silent about it.

We have no choice but to be aware of all of humanity, men and women and everyone else. We don't have the luxury of ignoring half of humanity. But we do have the choice to not continue to contribute to the obliviousness and spoiled irresponsibility of males. Die mad about it.

Die mad because an angry feminist on the internet hates men? I'ma decline that e-vite.

Yeah, that's the ticket! Nothing else to see here.

Shhhhh, it's ok, sweetheart! There, there.

 

[bilby]

A significant proportion of parents are 'men'.

And parents are certainly not the only people responsible for the 'raising' of children and young adults.

If your kids are feral, that's on you, not me.

As far as I am aware, I don't have any kids.

 

[laughing dog]

The hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. Parents are responsible for raising their children, not "men".

True, and one would think that it is obvious that Angry Floof is asking those men who are parents to step up and accept that responsibility.

However, it goes beyond parental responsibility. Children learn from observing others. One of the ways boys learn what it means to be a responsible adult male (i.e. a man) is observe men. Which means it is reasonable to ask men to model responsible behavior.

Really, this is not difficult to understand nor is AF's request a reason to get upset about.

 

[Toni]

A significant proportion of parents are 'men'.

And parents are certainly not the only people responsible for the 'raising' of children and young adults.

If your kids are feral, that's on you, not me.

As far as I am aware, I don't have any kids.

I’ve got news for both of you. Like it or not, as grown men you do serve as role models for every kid who so much as sees you walking down the street.

Kids are keen observers of human interactions. They see how people treat other people. They learn what society sees as acceptable and make decisions about what they think is good and what they think is bad. They may or may not decide to try to emulate you and they darn well decide what they do not want to be subjected to.

It doesn’t matter whether you ‘accept the responsibility.’ You’re grown ass men. The responsibility is yours whether you like it or not.

The same is true for women.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But isn’t there a possibility of finding a way to empathize with girls who must deal with hormonal boys who are inspired or deluded into believing that girls are happy or st least willing to service them just like in the pornos—and it’s their right to expect it and demand it.

yes, but by that same token isn't there a possibility of finding a way to empathize with boys who must deal with asexual girls who are won't service them in the way they expect?
i mean obviously from a measured adult standpoint the girls have it worse, i'm not suggesting the two circumstances are in any way equitable, but framing this purely as poor put-upon females against knowing predatory males is a bit hypocritical.

Maybe substitute "predatory" with immature, undereducated, and ill informed. And this is just talking about general porn, not stuff has a bit more dehumanizing characteristics in it.

if we're advocating for healthy sexual relationships and lifelong sexual satisfaction for everyone, then the issue of men having erroneous expectations that will never be met and thus being some measure of sexually disappointed their entire lives IS a problem, both for men's health and for the stability of sexual relationships between men and women.
i think in this case the two issues are symbiotic, the fix for the one is the cure for the other.

I think this is mansplaining away problems women are talking about. We have some women in here saying this is a problem for women... and the response from men is, "It wasn't a problem for me as a man".

this whole porn thing and issue between the genders in terms of sexual dynamics is entirely a cultural problem, one born from puritanical attitudes and perpetuated by the inability of those puritanical behaviors to control a post-internet world.
stop hiding sex from kids, which gives them nowhere to turn to learn about it except from porn, which the adults treat as serious material which gives them the impression it's something realistic to pay attention to, which causes these attitudinal problems.

But porn isn't real sex. Isn't this the issue? I'm reminded of Richard Jeni's commentary on it in his comedy show Platypus Man. I'd link to it, but NSFW stuff.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As far as I am aware, I don't have any kids.

I’ve got news for both of you. Like it or not, as grown men you do serve as role models for every kid who so much as sees you walking down the street.

Kids are keen observers of human interactions. They see how people treat other people. They learn what society sees as acceptable and make decisions about what they think is good and what they think is bad. They may or may not decide to try to emulate you and they darn well decide what they do not want to be subjected to.

It doesn’t matter whether you ‘accept the responsibility.’ You’re grown ass men. The responsibility is yours whether you like it or not.

The same is true for women.

Of course, talking to other people's kids about sex could get you put in jail.

 

[Toni]

As far as I am aware, I don't have any kids.

I’ve got news for both of you. Like it or not, as grown men you do serve as role models for every kid who so much as sees you walking down the street.

Kids are keen observers of human interactions. They see how people treat other people. They learn what society sees as acceptable and make decisions about what they think is good and what they think is bad. They may or may not decide to try to emulate you and they darn well decide what they do not want to be subjected to.

It doesn’t matter whether you ‘accept the responsibility.’ You’re grown ass men. The responsibility is yours whether you like it or not.

The same is true for women.

Of course, talking to other people's kids about sex could get you put in jail.

Yep but being role models is not the same thing as talking to other people’s kids about sex.

Also kids tend to be much better at observing than they are at listening. Except the stuff that they file away and whip out to throw in your face when they are adolescents.

 

[ronburgundy]

And let's not get derailed by that kind of specialty video, where very few of it's views are people seeking sexual gratification and more just about wanting to see the train wreck of human depravity everyone at the watercooler is talking about. I bet the majority of people (like me) couldn't even bring themselves to watch the most chunky parts, and most people don't get off with shit-eating videos no matter which gender is doing to eating.

What we're really trying to understand is why there are literally billions of views on porn sites every single day (100 million on Pornhub.com alone), with a huge % of the views being of videos of sexual acts without excrement or stylized BDSM stuff, but still a level of aggression that most women would not consent to and would find frightening.

Actually, what I thought we were trying to understand how the porn viewing habits of adolescent boys affects adolescent girls. Reading just the quotes in the OP, without even reading the article linked, it is impossible to not acknowledge that adolescent girls are being harmed.

Sure, but that's merely a statement of the problem. To really understand and/or do anything about how and why that harm is coming about to the girls (and arguably the boys too), we need to understand the nature of why the boys are seeking sexual gratification from viewing what they are and if/how it relates to other aspects of male socialization.

My point in that post was simply that 2 girls 1 cup doesn't address any of that, b/c it's not representative of what boys are using for sexual gratification and it's popularity is not about it's sexual appeal.

 

[ronburgundy]

A significant proportion of parents are 'men'.

And parents are certainly not the only people responsible for the 'raising' of children and young adults.

If your kids are feral, that's on you, not me.

If you're ignorant of the science showing the limited impact that parenting has on kids then that's on you. You could measure every parenting behavior there is, and combined you'd be lucky if they accounted for 5% of the variability in which kids watch what porn, and most that would be due to parents who directly impede their kids access to the internet and to viewing any porn at all (rather than impact what their kids want to do).

Regarding social norms in particular, your kids learn more from their peers than they do from you. And that doesn't just mean their closest friends whom you might have some ability to control, but all the countless casual acquaintances and strangers they interact with and see everyday at school, the park, and everywhere they go. They also learn from every other adult they see, and everything they see on TV and online, and your little "sit-down" conversations with them will do little to neutralize those impacts. Unless you're gonna lock them in the basement for 18 years, society at large is going to have huge impact on them, which puts some moral (not legal) responsibility on everyone for how what they do and say can cause harm to others.

 

[Bronzeage]

So porn may be harmful?
Who'd thought otherwise?

The same people who think getting shot doesn't really hurt too bad after watching the hero in a violent movie continue fighting after taking a round in the shoulder.

 

[ZiprHead]

Of course, talking to other people's kids about sex could get you put in jail.

Yep but being role models is not the same thing as talking to other people’s kids about sex.

Also kids tend to be much better at observing than they are at listening. Except the stuff that they file away and whip out to throw in your face when they are adolescents.

Here's a role model.

Show

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/5ugPrr5zOSU[/YOUTUBE]

 

[RVonse]

One of the ways boys learn what it means to be a responsible adult male (i.e. a man) is observe men. Which means it is reasonable to ask men to model responsible behavior.
.

You are absolutely wrong and this is where your logic falls flat. And is also the key to this issue in the first place. As well as many others such as teen suicide, etc.

You can not expect men to take responsibility for raising boys when they have absolutely NO authority in today's domestic legal framework.

And that will NEVER change until or unless the WOMEN want it to happen.

Ultimately, if you follow the logic to its conclusion, it is all the fault of the women.