God's too great to communicate clearly with humans

[another1]

Rhea my point to you was initially an inescapable God. You seem interested in it. You can't escape it, can you? Try being still and letting go of it if you can. No more responses. This is an important experiment...

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Non-intellect??? Look around and consider your own situation. Your view is depressing and does not promote inner peace for yourself or the ones around you.

Quite the contrary. But you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I am not claiming that your God doesn't exist because illogical or untrue claims have been made about Him; I am claiming that your God does not exist because there is not one shred of reliable evidence for his existence - you refuse to even discuss any of his attributes, and when pressed, you say you don't know what they are.

Belief wouldn't matter to a believer if their god was actually real. It only matters if they have doubts, which they all do. And that works for everything, including things that are actually real.

 

[Rhea]

Rhea my point to you was initially an inescapable God. You seem interested in it. You can't escape it, can you? Try being still and letting go of it if you can. No more responses. This is an important experiment...

Meh, not godly. I contemplate a lot. I spend a great deal of time alone. I love stillness. It's beautiful and wonderful. And not one tiny little bit supernatural.

Back to the thread... do you seriously have no Goddy feelings when a misty eyed puppy licky your facey? When you bite into a salty, heavily buttered corn cob? When you wake from sleepy time and twiddle your toes then stretch and make that noise that ultimately says "hello God, thank you for this day"? Do you not feel any magic in this suspiciously perfect bubble we swarm genes in? Come on man... at least once this week you tasted or fornicated with something that made you say hmmm thank you.

similar to what you asked me. And the answer here is still the same. Nope, I never need to "thank" a being for lovely feelings I have. I just feel them and love them. There is no sense that they were prepared for me specifically (that would seem oddly and uncomfortably narcissistic, don't you think?) they just are and I'm pleased to enjoy them. When I climb a mountain and stand alone at 13,000 feet feeling the sun and seeing a hawk ride the updraft, I feel great please, but no goddy feelings. Just that delicious feeling of being but a small thing in a wondrous wide world. I love life, savor it like an epicurious delight or a slow loving kiss. And nary a goddy feeling in sight. No need to feel like I'm special or created or some supreme being dished out delights on my personal behalf. It's just here and fascinating.

 

[another1]

Just the "cruel universe" or whatever it was you said, Joedad. I agreed with you on most of that. Hail Satan, Praise God and Allah or your computer it doesn't matter have fun I'm done nap time now. We can crunch the figures tonight man. Good times

 

[bilby]

It is you, apparently. I can say someone does not have certain qualities and point to reality to show evidence of this. I can tell you various reasons why you would believe someone else is interacting with you, other than God, but you probably already know these, and haven't thought things through completely.

Once again, one does not have to specifically define God's positive attributes in order to tell someone that illogical claims about God are incorrect.

I am not claiming that your God doesn't exist because illogical or untrue claims have been made about Him; I am claiming that your God does not exist because there is not one shred of reliable evidence for his existence - you refuse to even discuss any of his attributes, and when pressed, you say you don't know what they are.

Of course I don't know all of God's attributes. I don't know many of my bodies attributes. I can say I have a nose, brown hair, etc. Probably have an appendix, and whatnot, but in generally, I don't know many specifics about what is going on in my body. So, when you ask about a being as great as God, I'm like- WTF is wrong with bilby- doesn't he know how hard it is to nail down someone's attributes? Say God acts differently around different people, I know I do- based on the persons preferences.

You don't like seeing God, so God acts naturally around you. This doesn't mean God does not exist. It means God tailors God's actions to your personal preferences, because ultimately, God thinks natural beings (who think they are carving out a piece of reality with their own power) are cute.

If you control various structures in reality, and can influence beings towards certain ends, what are your specific attributes? If you can control technology, control life, organize events, have a direct connection to one's inner thoughts in such a way that you can lead conversations around a person to match their inner dialogue, lalalalalah.. what are your specific attributes? That you try to serve others, and sometimes serving others involves hiding your presence?

So, sometimes when you are in the service of others, or, for example, you are preparing a surprise for them, you hide your presence. It's not like playing a video game is rewarding if you know someone is deliberately losing to you, unless, of course, they make you lose just enough so that the game is rewarding, because they only let you win if you do the correct actions (which can also be fun).

I do claim that God as defined by the major Christian, Jewish and Islamic sects does not exist - He is the fictional character at the head of the Abrahamic religions. I know he is fictional, because their description of him is internally inconsistent.

Ohh, so politicians don't actually exist because political parties describe them in different ways? I'm glad you're here to teach me, otherwise I'd think various political figures have actual existence.

You know what, since if I say something untrue about you, you will stop existing, I better be careful. Ohh, wait a second, me saying that you will stop existing if I say something untrue about you is untrue, so you must no longer exist!!!!

Bilby, where are you? Have you stopped existing? What am I going to tell gmbteach?? That it's my fault that you stopped existing because I said something untrue. Now I feel like an asshole, and if you do not reply, I will assume that you stopped existing like everyone else anyone has ever said anything untrue about.

You don't need to know ALL of Gods attributes in order to discuss him. My complaint is that you haven't provided ANY.

Describing the same entity in different ways is fine; but if an entity has contradictory descriptions, then those descriptions are not all correct. And if ALL there is is contradictions, then you've got nothing.

Stop making vague noises about what your God isn't, and (if you can) tell me what he is.

If you can't, then I don't see any way to separate your assertions from the ramblings of a delusional idiot.

I have a mostly consistent idea of how things are - there are basics that are always true - Physical law - and there are local conditions that result - such as atmospheric pressure. There are some flaws and errors in my worldview, and some stuff I don't understand. But nowhere is there a gap that cannot be filled without recourse to the supernatural. You could, if you like, call the bits I call 'unknown', 'God'. But those bits don't amount to a hill of beans, much less an intelligence. They are not interactive, nor important; They don't control or influence anything on a human scale in any significant way; and they assuredly are not worthy of respect, much less worship.

Is respectability one of the characteristics of your God? Is he worshipful? Is there any reason at all to give a shit about him?

You haven't even confirmed or denied these things - which most people ascribe as characteristics of their Gods. All I know about your God so far is that you assert that he exists; and you assert that he is not {insert whatever guess people put up to try to get you to be specific}... You say "If you control various structures in reality, and can influence beings towards certain ends, what are your specific attributes?", and even that you pose as a question - you can't bring yourself to assert even something so vague as that your God controls 'various structures' - which? - or influences beings towards 'certain ends' - What beings? What ends?

Your descriptions of your God seems to be one very long and rambling statement of no knowledge at all. If you know nothing about your God, then why should I even accept His existence?

You assert that I don't want to see God; but in fact I simply don't see God - and judging by your description, neither do you. If you could see something, you could make some kind of definite statement about what you see.

If we both look into a dark hole, and I see nothing, but you say 'there is something there', then maybe you see something I don't - but if I ask you to describe what you see, and all I get in response is vague and apparently evasive dissembling, then I will stick to my assumption that there is nothing to be seen.

 

[bilby]

Rhea my point to you was initially an inescapable God. You seem interested in it. You can't escape it, can you? Try being still and letting go of it if you can. No more responses. This is an important experiment...

Or, to paraphrase, if you STFU, I win, and if you don't STFU, I win.

Not very clever, but a nice try. It would probably work as a debating technique on my three year old nieces, at least for a few minutes.

Sorry. You don't get to set the rules - people telling you that the Loch Ness Monster isn't real are not all secretly Nessie believers - some just have an interest in correcting errors.

With Gods, this is even more common, because few people try to tell us how to live based on their belief that it is what Nessie commands.

 

[Kharakov]

Orchestrated events in my life, communications, etc..

Uh huh.
So... The world, and _everyone else's_ everyday life events are being organized and "orchestrated" so as to make YOU uniquely able 'hear', and of all persons, alone, uniquely able to correctly interpret these unique personal "communications" coming to you from your undescribed, unknown and strange personal deity, ...that all other persons, us being merely bit players in this _in your head_, quasi-religious fantasy trip are unable to perceive.

This isn't something that only I experience. Another thing that I have experienced, having gone down the rabbit hole to stupidville (I was a strong atheist as a youth) because of my pride in my "knowledge" of nature, is the various incorrect beliefs that many here on TFT still express (whether or not they believe them is an open question for me).

Although truthfully, at this point, maybe everyone is pretending that God doesn't exist to create fun scenarios, and I'm the only one stuck in IIDB mode.... I mean, the board name has changed, yet I still view the arguments in the same light, because perhaps I didn't grow with the idea of the non-existence of God as a joke. So, maybe, just maybe, I don't get the fucking humor. I have a problem with irony.

 

[dystopian]

because perhaps I didn't grow with the idea of the non-existence of God as a joke. So, maybe, just maybe, I don't get the fucking humor. I have a problem with irony.

You have my sympathies; not being able to laugh at jokes involving non-existent beings isn't exactly a disability, but it deprives you of so much enjoyment in life.

 

[Kharakov]

because perhaps I didn't grow with the idea of the non-existence of God as a joke. So, maybe, just maybe, I don't get the fucking humor. I have a problem with irony.

You have my sympathies; not being able to laugh at jokes involving non-existent beings isn't exactly a disability, but it deprives you of so much enjoyment in life.

Ehh.. some English humor is a bit dry for me as well.

 

[Mageth]

because perhaps I didn't grow with the idea of the non-existence of God as a joke. So, maybe, just maybe, I don't get the fucking humor. I have a problem with irony.

Non-existence of God jokes are a hoot. Some of my favorites...

How many Gods does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Gods don't exist!

Why did God cross the road?
God doesn't exist!

Three Gods walk into a bar...
...but the bartender said nothing, because Gods don't exist!

Knock, knock...
Who's there?
God
God who?
God doesn't exist!

 

[Kharakov]

 

[another1]

Bilby I don't necessarily point out brand name Gods like Nessie with any set of commands at all. Someone pointed out that they have been critical of a nonexistent God for a decade. Almost daily searching for those perfect words to pop their collar and make them a cool person of faith. In the end, the ritual of criticism and defying idiots who didn't have smart stuff was their God. I should have laid out the redefinition of what I meant a God to be and also the rituals that make someone a servant. I've fooled myself enough times to know how and why people do it to themselves. You can be a fool by fooling yourself or fool yourself out of being so foolish by admitting that you're participating in God, and God is cosmic foolery inside the human mind. Psychologically there is no escape from the need and worship of God. Logic would say that being accepted by more people in society, getting sandwiches, stimulating your brain things and so many other things make a brand name God more sensible to worship. Denying the fancy, made to go Gods takes creativity and self deception. I said there is no escape but I didn't intend to paint a picture of some creepy, bearded thing chasing you in it's wheelchair while wielding a magic wand. The misunderstanding is all my fault because I didn't lay out the redefinition of God, faith and the means by which we self deceive. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding and if it matters a month from now I will try again. Try going to church in the interim and work with me. Choose a church with a lot of sandwiches and acidheads. Best bet is a Baptist joint that used to be a bowling alley down in the bad part of town. I'm headed back into the woods where there are no internets or cool people like you to talk to. I value your comments and enjoy your personality. I'm grateful God led me to you. Jesus Christ, the true Lord and savior of Humanity in my case.
Hurry if you need more of my attention because I'm out soon.

 

[bilby]

Bilby I don't necessarily point out brand name Gods like Nessie with any set of commands at all. Someone pointed out that they have been critical of a nonexistent God for a decade. Almost daily searching for those perfect words to pop their collar and make them a cool person of faith. In the end, the ritual of criticism and defying idiots who didn't have smart stuff was their God. I should have laid out the redefinition of what I meant a God to be and also the rituals that make someone a servant. I've fooled myself enough times to know how and why people do it to themselves. You can be a fool by fooling yourself or fool yourself out of being so foolish by admitting that you're participating in God, and God is cosmic foolery inside the human mind. Psychologically there is no escape from the need and worship of God. Logic would say that being accepted by more people in society, getting sandwiches, stimulating your brain things and so many other things make a brand name God more sensible to worship. Denying the fancy, made to go Gods takes creativity and self deception. I said there is no escape but I didn't intend to paint a picture of some creepy, bearded thing chasing you in it's wheelchair while wielding a magic wand. The misunderstanding is all my fault because I didn't lay out the redefinition of God, faith and the means by which we self deceive. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding and if it matters a month from now I will try again. Try going to church in the interim and work with me. Choose a church with a lot of sandwiches and acidheads. Best bet is a Baptist joint that used to be a bowling alley down in the bad part of town. I'm headed back into the woods where there are no internets or cool people like you to talk to. I value your comments and enjoy your personality. I'm grateful God led me to you. Jesus Christ, the true Lord and savior of Humanity in my case.
Hurry if you need more of my attention because I'm out soon.

God may be a part of your imagination, but that doesn't mean that every person's imagination is a God.

I enjoy talking about fictional characters; And I value my freedom enough to also enjoy opposing those who try to use fictional characters as a justification for impinging upon that freedom. But those are hobbies, not Gods.

Talking about Batman doesn't mean I believe Batman to be real; and telling people to piss off if they say I should live in accordance with Batman's teachings also doesn't mean I believe Batman to be real.

The same applies to God - except that the number of morons who want to tell me how to live because God, is far, far greater than the number who want to tell me how to live because Batman.

I am not trying to escape from either Batman or God - as they are fictional, that would be silly. I am, however, trying to escape the influence of the insane followers of Batman and of God; As far as Batman is concerned, I have largely succeeded in that goal; but God's fan club are harder to shake.

 

[another1]

God's fan club is essentially a bunch of assholes and they are annoying. I'm not pushing God on you. I'm pushing the idea that God takes many forms and we are fools for it's lovin no matter what we do or don't do because we are neurochemically predisposed. If we don't watch the Batman cartoon we may like the movies. If we don't have the action figure, we may like the Bat mobile. Maybe we like Gotham but not Batman. Maybe we like the Joker, who wouldn't exist without Batman. Maybe we like the cartoon series and not the movies. Maybe we like to play with him in the bathtub or just collect the sealed packages for their nostalgic or money value. Maybe robin appeals to us. The Batmen flying around in our heads are there before we learn Batmen exist. Chemical stuff happens in the brain and electrical impulses shoot around making Batman real, even if he isn't. Batman uses VMAT2 gas. A very powerful agent that hovers in Gotham. If you live in Gotham you probably breathe it.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I've been meaning to ask you... do you utter the word Atheist when someone asks you what Religion you claim to be?

Frankly, i don't know. NO one has EVER asked me what religion i claim to be...
What an odd and presumptuous way to phrase it.

Frankly, off of the boards, it almost never comes up.

It almost did the other day. In our industry, we have a lot of 3-day meetings. People fly in on Monday and fly out on Friday so that they can count the day as work. Some places won't compensate you for travel on Sunday.
But for one fo our meetings, the security office closes about an hour before our planes would be landing on Monday, so we travel on Sunday.
A coworker was absolutely scandalized that i would plan to travel on Sunday.
"That's the lord's day!" he pointed out.
"And in some countries, red is the color you wear to a funeral," I replied. He stared. "Oh. I thought we were playing the 'what's a silly superstition?' game.

But he didn't get as far as asking what religion i claimed to be.

When saying the word Atheist in those situations, does the recipient scowl or show any signs of disapproval?

I always treat those questions the same way i treat the 'race' question. None of your business.

I'm just wondering because I have always had a faith. My brain just doesn't work like yours supposedly does.

and we're back to the annoyingly presumptuous commentary.
It doesn't do much for enhancing any credibility on your part to call the other posters liars.

Back to the thread... do you seriously have no Goddy feelings when a misty eyed puppy licky your facey?

No.
I used to get goddy feelings when i was a believer.
But the feelings are pretty meaningless as evidence. Just like when wounded soldiers shout for God or Mommy to save them. Doesn't mean they really feel that Mommy is capable of travel to the battlefield and able to deal with a sucking chestwound. It's just an emotional reaction to stimuli.

Big whoop.

When you bite into a salty, heavily buttered corn cob?

As above. No, i don't.

When you wake from sleepy time and twiddle your toes then stretch and make that noise that ultimately says "hello God, thank you for this day"?

I don't make any noise thanking anyone for the day.

Do you not feel any magic in this suspiciously perfect bubble we swarm genes in?

My only suspicion about the perfection of the bubble is how much pain, suffering, Celine Dion and Death you have to ignore in order to consider it perfect.

Come on man... at least once this week you tasted or fornicated with something that made you say hmmm thank you.

Actually, i've been impotent since the diabetes presented. I'm not thanking anyone for that...

You know, i have been on a flooding submarine and absolutely convinced i, and those around me, were going to die.
I did not pray for help.
I did not pray for a quick death.
We kept plugging away (pun not intended) at the fault and eventually training overcame it and we survived.

I did not feel moved to thank anyone for our survival, either.

 

[Underseer]

God's fan club is essentially a bunch of assholes and they are annoying. I'm not pushing God on you. I'm pushing the idea that God takes many forms and we are fools for it's lovin no matter what we do or don't do because we are neurochemically predisposed.

Call it whatever you like, but once you make a claim, you have to back that claim up, or people will not take your claim seriously. We are also predisposed to shape the evidence to fit our conclusions instead of shaping our conclusions to fit the evidence, but that doesn't mean this is a valid way of thinking. We are predisposed to select conclusions that are self-serving, but that doesn't mean this is a valid way of thinking. We are predisposed to mistake random images and sounds for ghosts, but that doesn't mean ghosts are real. If you want to understand why we are predisposed to believe in gods, I suggest watching this video:

If we don't watch the Batman cartoon we may like the movies. If we don't have the action figure, we may like the Bat mobile. Maybe we like Gotham but not Batman. Maybe we like the Joker, who wouldn't exist without Batman. Maybe we like the cartoon series and not the movies. Maybe we like to play with him in the bathtub or just collect the sealed packages for their nostalgic or money value. Maybe robin appeals to us. The Batmen flying around in our heads are there before we learn Batmen exist. Chemical stuff happens in the brain and electrical impulses shoot around making Batman real, even if he isn't. Batman uses VMAT2 gas. A very powerful agent that hovers in Gotham. If you live in Gotham you probably breathe it.

Batman, therefore god?

That's a new one. I honestly have not heard that argument before, and I've heard the "dark matter doesn't exist, therefore god" argument.

 

[another1]

I see, Keith. I wasn't really directing it to you. I was just trying to stir shit for anyone with their nose turned up high enough to smell it. I apologize and I know the apology means nothing to you. You're okay by me and it may be an illusion that I sense the presence of God from you. I can't help but feel it but I won't point it out anymore. I've been very rude to you and I feel bad about it now.You gave me attention when I first came around and I thought we had "a thing" but I shouldn't have been so presumptuous. Over the past couple of years duriing my infrequent visits... I didn't even know you were a military man. Thank you for protecting my country.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I see, Keith. I wasn't really directing it to you.

And this matters to me, why?
Whether it's sincere or just trying to get someone's attention, you're saying things that i know to be incorrect.
And if you can't figure that sort of shit out with real human beings that we both agree they exist, what hope do you have for convincing me you've figured out that god's real?

You're okay by me and it may be an illusion that I sense the presence of God from you. I can't help but feel it but I won't point it out anymore.

Jesus Christ in a Herring cannery, you don't get it.
I'm not offended by you thinking you feel god in me.
I'm fucking offended by your treatment of my atheism as a state of self-deception.

Thank you for protecting my country.

You are welcome. Sincerely.

 

[Kharakov]

You don't need to know ALL of Gods attributes in order to discuss him. My complaint is that you haven't provided ANY.

Well, you could just call God the living energy of the universe that does all things, if you want a simple description.

Describing the same entity in different ways is fine; but if an entity has contradictory descriptions, then those descriptions are not all correct. And if ALL there is is contradictions, then you've got nothing.

So, if different beings, with different perspectives on a person say different things about the same person, this means that the person does not exist. That's a brilliant position. Absolutely fucking brilliant.

I have a mostly consistent idea of how things are - there are basics that are always true - Physical law - and there are local conditions that result - such as atmospheric pressure. There are some flaws and errors in my worldview, and some stuff I don't understand. But nowhere is there a gap that cannot be filled without recourse to the supernatural.

Sure. I can honestly say that there is more than one possible explanation for the being that I've called God. It could simply be a psychic being that guides and shapes the lives of those within its care. There could be multiple beings, who all try to shape the lives of those within their care, who work together to create better lives and sometimes present their unified goal (happiness for all) as a singular being.

However, we are still with the primal being that has existed since the beginning of time, and they are not going anywhere, so... I'm pretty sure you already know this.

You assert that I don't want to see God; but in fact I simply don't see God - and judging by your description, neither do you. If you could see something, you could make some kind of definite statement about what you see.

Unified actions of what exists. The implication of unified actions occurring is that something is directing the actions.

We are still connected to the source of all, to some extent, because we are not cut off from the primal energy of the universe, and are still one with it forever. God acts differently in different areas, so God has many different behaviors which cannot all be described in the exact same way.

We are never separate from God, even when we are ignorant of God's existence and intellect because we only understand minor details about God's actions.