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Going to jail for not paying alimony?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...schneider-jail-unpaid-alimony-speaks-out/amp/

We hear all the time about consequences for not paying child support but this is alimony. So a couple questions for Toni (or whoever can answer):

1. What's the difference between this and debtors prison?

2. Are men really better off than women?

1. I don't agree with debtors prisons or with sending men to jail for not paying alimony or child support. I also don't agree with sending women to jail for not paying alimony or child support.

2. Yes, I believe that men are still better off than women. I realize that as the advantages that men have had over women have evened out, it seems to men as though they are being put behind when really, women are being treated more equally. Still not equal. But the disparity is disappearing.

As a note, he's been released from jail after serving 5 hours time.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...eider-addresses-alimony-jail-stint/694501002/

Reading what he is quoted as saying, I'm inclined to say that he's given to some hyperbole when discussing his hardships. I have no idea what the details of his divorce were or why alimony was awarded or what amounts, etc.
 
According to this article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5841885/Jailed-John-Schneider-claims-conservative-values-hurt-court.html)
Schneider had earlier been ordered by a judge to transfer his property to his estranged wife to pay his spousal support debt and to resolve tax liens against the property.
. I may be wrong, but I suspect he was jailed for failing to comply with that court order.

I would like some more facts because something does not make sense. He claims his loss to floods of his Louisiana studio prevents him from paying his alimony. That may be true, but one wonders why he did not have flood insurance. And since he apparently still owns it, why not turn it over to comply (as he claims he would if he had the cash)?
 
The whole system of alimony is that of serfdom. Men are treated as serfs of their ex-wives who get to live without working off their ex-husbands hard work. It's also inherently sexist, as a high-income woman is much less likely to get forced into the serfdom to her ex-spouse than an ex-husband is (only 4% of alimonies are paid by women)
This is just taking the serfdom concept to the next level.

- - - Updated - - -

And since he apparently still owns it, why not turn it over to comply (as he claims he would if he had the cash)?
Why should his ex-wife get all his stuff? Why should she get to live "in the lifestyle she is accustomed to" without working for it, while the ex-husband has to pay for her lifestyle? The whole concept of alimony is disgusting! It's involuntary servitude.

- - - Updated - - -

2. Yes, I believe that men are still better off than women. I realize that as the advantages that men have had over women have evened out, it seems to men as though they are being put behind when really, women are being treated more equally. Still not equal. But the disparity is disappearing.
You are wrong. The advantages men had over women have disappeared but the advantages women have have been perpetuated. Like this serfdom/alimony business. Women now can go out and get a job at least just as easily as men can. So why do judges still award alimony like it's 19th century or something?
 
Why should his ex-wife get all his stuff? Why should she get to live "in the lifestyle she is accustomed to" without working for it, while the ex-husband has to pay for her lifestyle? The whole concept of alimony is disgusting! It's involuntary servitude.
Your biased rant is pointless. Schneider knew the laws when he got married. If he doesn't want to pay alimony, then he shouldn't get married. Duh.

Moreover, if he doesn't want to be jailed, he ought to obey a court order. It is fascinating to watch the same people who will defend the police gunning down innocent and harmless people with "uh, they should have immediately obeyed the police" defend someone who is violating a court order.
 
Your biased rant is pointless. Schneider knew the laws when he got married. If he doesn't want to pay alimony, then he shouldn't get married. Duh.
Would you be as sanguine where marriage laws were biased against women? Like in Muslim countries? She knew the laws ...

Moreover, if he doesn't want to be jailed, he ought to obey a court order. It is fascinating to watch the same people who will defend the police gunning down innocent and harmless people with "uh, they should have immediately obeyed the police" defend someone who is violating a court order.
It's fascinating people who decry even a hint of sexism against women defend sexism when it benefits women.
Also, do not derail. We have 1000+ threads on police shooting "innocent" people like Mike Brown.
 
The whole system of alimony is that of serfdom. Men are treated as serfs of their ex-wives who get to live without working off their ex-husbands hard work. It's also inherently sexist, as a high-income woman is much less likely to get forced into the serfdom to her ex-spouse than an ex-husband is (only 4% of alimonies are paid by women)
This is just taking the serfdom concept to the next level.

When someone puts their career on hold to be a homemaker it's reasonable that they receive alimony.

However, it should be based on what they gave up, not the standard of living they had in the marriage. Put them back to where they would have been had they not become a homemaker.
 
Your biased rant is pointless. Schneider knew the laws when he got married. If he doesn't want to pay alimony, then he shouldn't get married. Duh.
Would you be as sanguine where marriage laws were biased against women? Like in Muslim countries? She knew the laws ...

Moreover, if he doesn't want to be jailed, he ought to obey a court order. It is fascinating to watch the same people who will defend the police gunning down innocent and harmless people with "uh, they should have immediately obeyed the police" defend someone who is violating a court order.
It's fascinating people who decry even a hint of sexism against women defend sexism when it benefits women.
Also, do not derail. We have 1000+ threads on police shooting "innocent" people like Mike Brown.
The only person derailing this thread is you with one of your boring hobby horses.
 
The only person derailing this thread is you with one of your boring hobby horses.
What you call my "hobby horse" is what the thread is about. That's not a derail, unlike your stupid remark about police shooting suspects, which has zero to do with the topic of the thread.
 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...schneider-jail-unpaid-alimony-speaks-out/amp/

We hear all the time about consequences for not paying child support but this is alimony. So a couple questions for Toni (or whoever can answer):

1. What's the difference between this and debtors prison?

2. Are men really better off than women?

This must be an American thing. If child support is not paid in Australia, usually the ATO orders the persons salary to be garnished until the amount if paid in full, with a general interest charge slapped on top.

Also, something tells me this is not a typical case. Call it a hunch.
 
The only person derailing this thread is you with one of your boring hobby horses.
What you call my "hobby horse" is what the thread is about. That's not a derail, unlike your stupid remark about police shooting suspects, which has zero to do with the topic of the thread.
Learn to read. This thread is not about your boring hobby horse of the unfairness of alimony: it is about whether Mr. Schneider deserved to go to jail.

My point about your double standard is obvious: people (usually black) get what they deserve when they do not obey authority but a man who disobeys authority (a court order) does not get what he deserves. Learn to think.
 
laughing dog said:
Schneider knew the laws when he got married. If he doesn't want to pay alimony, then he shouldn't get married. Duh.

You don't know that. He may not have known. Ignorance of law isn't an excuse, but your assertion is groundless.

It is fascinating to watch the same people who will defend the police gunning down innocent and harmless people with "uh, they should have immediately obeyed the police" defend someone who is violating a court order.

There is a hypocrisy to that, but you share in it by doing the opposite.
 
California family law is its own beast, quite distinct in many ways from all other forms of civil law. I should know because I work for a family law attorney, and have written countless trial briefs, declarations, and points & authorities. Here's a quick and dirty on "normal" civil law on payment of debts:

A court may not impose punishment in a civil contempt proceeding when it is clearly established that the alleged contemnor is unable to comply with the terms of the order. Turner v. Rogers (2011) S. Ct. 2507. Thus, it is essential to the court's right to punish a person for contempt in disobeying an order of the court that the person has the ability to comply with the order. Application of Leavitt (1959) 174 Cal.App. 535. Whether it is within the power of the person to obey or comply with the order is a question of fact, which the court making the order has a right to determine. Ex parte Cardella (1941) 47 Cal. App. 2d 329.

And I'll leave out the citations from here on out because it's a PITA.

Now, here's family law spousal support rules:

Neither the Family Code nor the Penal Code specifically provides that failure to pay post-divorce spousal support shall be punishable by imprisonment. But “[d]isobedience of any lawful judgment, order, or process of the court” amounts to civil contempt. Contempt opens the door to jail. What about California's constitutional prohibition on imprisonment for debt? The courts hold that a court-ordered obligation to pay spousal support is a “familial support obligation” not a “debt” within the constitutional provision.

That said, if a party seeks reduction of spousal support, they have to file a Request for Order showing a material change of circumstances as to their ability to pay. What counts as changed circumstances is codified, but it in reality it varies, and the granting of the order is at the court's very wide discretion. However, we've gotten reductions based on retirement, unemployment, job change, etc. Often times, just filing can bring the other spouse to the table to get a reasonable reduction without a change of circumstance.

To say that men are made to pay disgusting amounts of spousal support isn't a joke. My boss is a woman and she is frequently aghast at the amount that women get awarded, even when the woman is our client. The current Dissomaster program is always too high in terms of spousal support and we can usually get a reduction from it (Dissomaster is a program that takes all the financials of the parties and spits out a support number), but frequently the man's income is cut by 50% or more.

It's a terrible system.

The only redeeming feature is that usually women are given a certain amount of time to get back on their feet, which is fair if the woman really dedicated herself to being a stay at home mom or if the husband encouraged her to not work, and in fact, she didn't based on reliance of her husband's income and promise to be wholly obligated to the financials. This allows them to go back to school or get back into the work force. So those disgustingly high amounts generally only last a few years. HOWEVER, it is common that at the end of that time period, the woman comes back and asks for an extension, which the court will usually grant, unless the man cuts a deal before going to court. And all things considered, it's almost always cheaper to cut a deal. Then a couple years goes by, and she'll come back again. Then he has to pony up another retainer. It is also common for her to have done little to actually get back on her feet.

This often goes on well past the time the children reach adulthood and leave the home.

But what happened in this guy's case? It sounds to me like he either a) willfully failed to provide what the court ordered him to, or b) he flat out didn't show up to mediation and/or several court dates. But it may be worse than that because if either of those things happened, the remedy is to simply deny his request, hit his bank account, and fine him. When someone genuinely can't pay what's ordered, the court will grant a reduction, even if temporary. So this guy pulled some serious bullshit.

Now, there's a ton of "what about this, or what about that," but I've gone on long enough.
 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...schneider-jail-unpaid-alimony-speaks-out/amp/

We hear all the time about consequences for not paying child support but this is alimony. So a couple questions for Toni (or whoever can answer):

1. What's the difference between this and debtors prison?
If I fail to pay my credit card bill, the taxpayer isn't going to get stuck providing food, shelter and medical care to 2-5 extra people next year.

2. Are men really better off than women?
Yes, but what does that have to do with this conversation?
 
Now let me ask you this:

Why should commoners have to go to prison for not paying debts, while corporations and rich people (such as His Holiness Trump) face zero consequences when they don't pay their debts? Is it because you believe that the economic elites are inherently, fundamentally better than lowlifes such as you or me?
 
laughing dog said:
Schneider knew the laws when he got married. If he doesn't want to pay alimony, then he shouldn't get married. Duh.

You don't know that. He may not have known. Ignorance of law isn't an excuse, but your assertion is groundless.
You have no grounds for her conclusiuon. On the otherhand, he was married proor to this marriage. And he is a celebrity which increases the odds he has a lawyer to advice him on this subect. So there are strong grounds that he knew or should have known if he payed attention.
[
There is a hypocrisy to that, but you share in it by doing the opposite.
Your erroneous conclusion is based on very shallow thinking. I have never argued people should not obey the police. I have argued that disobeying the police should not necessarily a death sentence. Yes the difference is a nuance, but one that anyone claiming to be a lawyer ought to notice.
 
California family law is its own beast, quite distinct in many ways from all other forms of civil law. I should know because I work for a family law attorney, and have written countless trial briefs, declarations, and points & authorities. Here's a quick and dirty on "normal" civil law on payment of debts:

A court may not impose punishment in a civil contempt proceeding when it is clearly established that the alleged contemnor is unable to comply with the terms of the order. Turner v. Rogers (2011) S. Ct. 2507. Thus, it is essential to the court's right to punish a person for contempt in disobeying an order of the court that the person has the ability to comply with the order. Application of Leavitt (1959) 174 Cal.App. 535. Whether it is within the power of the person to obey or comply with the order is a question of fact, which the court making the order has a right to determine. Ex parte Cardella (1941) 47 Cal. App. 2d 329.

And I'll leave out the citations from here on out because it's a PITA.

Now, here's family law spousal support rules:

Neither the Family Code nor the Penal Code specifically provides that failure to pay post-divorce spousal support shall be punishable by imprisonment. But “[d]isobedience of any lawful judgment, order, or process of the court” amounts to civil contempt. Contempt opens the door to jail. What about California's constitutional prohibition on imprisonment for debt? The courts hold that a court-ordered obligation to pay spousal support is a “familial support obligation” not a “debt” within the constitutional provision.

That said, if a party seeks reduction of spousal support, they have to file a Request for Order showing a material change of circumstances as to their ability to pay. What counts as changed circumstances is codified, but it in reality it varies, and the granting of the order is at the court's very wide discretion. However, we've gotten reductions based on retirement, unemployment, job change, etc. Often times, just filing can bring the other spouse to the table to get a reasonable reduction without a change of circumstance.

To say that men are made to pay disgusting amounts of spousal support isn't a joke. My boss is a woman and she is frequently aghast at the amount that women get awarded, even when the woman is our client. The current Dissomaster program is always too high in terms of spousal support and we can usually get a reduction from it (Dissomaster is a program that takes all the financials of the parties and spits out a support number), but frequently the man's income is cut by 50% or more.

It's a terrible system.

The only redeeming feature is that usually women are given a certain amount of time to get back on their feet, which is fair if the woman really dedicated herself to being a stay at home mom or if the husband encouraged her to not work, and in fact, she didn't based on reliance of her husband's income and promise to be wholly obligated to the financials. This allows them to go back to school or get back into the work force. So those disgustingly high amounts generally only last a few years. HOWEVER, it is common that at the end of that time period, the woman comes back and asks for an extension, which the court will usually grant, unless the man cuts a deal before going to court. And all things considered, it's almost always cheaper to cut a deal. Then a couple years goes by, and she'll come back again. Then he has to pony up another retainer. It is also common for her to have done little to actually get back on her feet.

This often goes on well past the time the children reach adulthood and leave the home.

But what happened in this guy's case? It sounds to me like he either a) willfully failed to provide what the court ordered him to, or b) he flat out didn't show up to mediation and/or several court dates. But it may be worse than that because if either of those things happened, the remedy is to simply deny his request, hit his bank account, and fine him. When someone genuinely can't pay what's ordered, the court will grant a reduction, even if temporary. So this guy pulled some serious bullshit.

Now, there's a ton of "what about this, or what about that," but I've gone on long enough.

That's just plain depressing to me. I'm 61 years old now so pretty much the end of my lifespan anyway. But if I were given a choice I would much rather be born a woman than a male in the US. Females have got it made in this country now. No need to work and money coming in at the drop of a hat. I still wouldn't want to be a female in Saudi Arabia.....but I sure would want to be born a female if I could be born again in California, USA. What a great life I would have at everyone else expense!

And the courts are totally unfair and disgusting.
 
California family law is its own beast, quite distinct in many ways from all other forms of civil law. I should know because I work for a family law attorney, and have written countless trial briefs, declarations, and points & authorities. Here's a quick and dirty on "normal" civil law on payment of debts:

A court may not impose punishment in a civil contempt proceeding when it is clearly established that the alleged contemnor is unable to comply with the terms of the order. Turner v. Rogers (2011) S. Ct. 2507. Thus, it is essential to the court's right to punish a person for contempt in disobeying an order of the court that the person has the ability to comply with the order. Application of Leavitt (1959) 174 Cal.App. 535. Whether it is within the power of the person to obey or comply with the order is a question of fact, which the court making the order has a right to determine. Ex parte Cardella (1941) 47 Cal. App. 2d 329.

And I'll leave out the citations from here on out because it's a PITA.

Now, here's family law spousal support rules:

Neither the Family Code nor the Penal Code specifically provides that failure to pay post-divorce spousal support shall be punishable by imprisonment. But “[d]isobedience of any lawful judgment, order, or process of the court” amounts to civil contempt. Contempt opens the door to jail. What about California's constitutional prohibition on imprisonment for debt? The courts hold that a court-ordered obligation to pay spousal support is a “familial support obligation” not a “debt” within the constitutional provision.

That said, if a party seeks reduction of spousal support, they have to file a Request for Order showing a material change of circumstances as to their ability to pay. What counts as changed circumstances is codified, but it in reality it varies, and the granting of the order is at the court's very wide discretion. However, we've gotten reductions based on retirement, unemployment, job change, etc. Often times, just filing can bring the other spouse to the table to get a reasonable reduction without a change of circumstance.

To say that men are made to pay disgusting amounts of spousal support isn't a joke. My boss is a woman and she is frequently aghast at the amount that women get awarded, even when the woman is our client. The current Dissomaster program is always too high in terms of spousal support and we can usually get a reduction from it (Dissomaster is a program that takes all the financials of the parties and spits out a support number), but frequently the man's income is cut by 50% or more.

It's a terrible system.

The only redeeming feature is that usually women are given a certain amount of time to get back on their feet, which is fair if the woman really dedicated herself to being a stay at home mom or if the husband encouraged her to not work, and in fact, she didn't based on reliance of her husband's income and promise to be wholly obligated to the financials. This allows them to go back to school or get back into the work force. So those disgustingly high amounts generally only last a few years. HOWEVER, it is common that at the end of that time period, the woman comes back and asks for an extension, which the court will usually grant, unless the man cuts a deal before going to court. And all things considered, it's almost always cheaper to cut a deal. Then a couple years goes by, and she'll come back again. Then he has to pony up another retainer. It is also common for her to have done little to actually get back on her feet.

This often goes on well past the time the children reach adulthood and leave the home.

But what happened in this guy's case? It sounds to me like he either a) willfully failed to provide what the court ordered him to, or b) he flat out didn't show up to mediation and/or several court dates. But it may be worse than that because if either of those things happened, the remedy is to simply deny his request, hit his bank account, and fine him. When someone genuinely can't pay what's ordered, the court will grant a reduction, even if temporary. So this guy pulled some serious bullshit.

Now, there's a ton of "what about this, or what about that," but I've gone on long enough.

That's just plain depressing to me. I'm 61 years old now so pretty much the end of my lifespan anyway. But if I were given a choice I would much rather be born a woman than a male in the US. Females have got it made in this country now. No need to work and money coming in at the drop of a hat. I still wouldn't want to be a female in Saudi Arabia.....but I sure would want to be born a female if I could be born again in California, USA. What a great life I would have at everyone else expense!

And the courts are totally unfair and disgusting.

Wow.
 
Family Court Judges are a lot like Tax Court Judges in one respect. In any situation, they would rather collect money than send someone to jail. It's just a better all round solution. Men( and women ,too, though I doubt it's common) go to jail when the judge thinks they are evading the payments through fraud or simple stubborness.

I don't see what he's bitching about. He's sentenced to 3 days and gets out in 5 hours, obviously for good behavior, or something. Arlo Guthrie did more time in Alice's Restaurant.
 
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