Here Comes The Left

[Patooka]

But with regards to the topic of the thread, people like Mamdani and Hasan Piker are exactly what the Democrats need if they ever want to govern again. Every time the party shows that they have a clear list of values and a plan to achieve them, they win in a landslide. And every time they act MAGA-lite (which was exactly their campaign strategy in 2016 and 2024), they mange to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

 

[Bronzeage]

Why? Do you think I made it up?

Not necessarily made it up, but I noticed no link to the source. And when I tried googling David Abbruzzese, all I got was the former Pearl Jam drummer.

Who is, I surely don't have to tell you, not an Australian.

You may not have noticed, but you haven't disputed anything he said.

I realized that it made too many claims for me to be able to go through one by one at this time. Especially since it requires hunting down stats, since he - whoever he may be - provided no references.

I'll take it that you concede it all to be true.

Far from it! Things are far more complex and nuanced than this elusive David portrays for sure.

Is that the best you can do? Sounds like David the Australian hit a nerve. At least enough for you to research Australia.

Not necessarily the best, but that was a claim that was already tackled, so why not join in? As I said, your David from Down Under made so many unsourced claims.

As usual, when you try to make a point, it has no relevance. Stating an unrelated fact does not make a coherent response.

Why do you say it has no relevance? Dave claims US is bad because we have so many homeless. According to stats, Australia has more than twice the homeless rate than the US. I think that is highly relevant to the "US is bad, mkay" polemic he was spouting. Whoever he is.

You seen to be tap dancing around too many logical fallacies to catalog and may have discovered new ones. What difference does it make who said it, unless you want to make some kind of ad hominem attack. I've heard of "appeal to authority" but demanding someone else appeal to it is a little strange.

Why would you think someone needs to live in some perfect place in order for their criticism of the US to be valid? Address the issues or quit wasting my time.

If Dave the Aussie hurt your feelings, that is covered by the old adage, the truth hurts.

 

[Patooka]

You seen to be tap dancing around too many logical fallacies to catalog and may have discovered new ones. What difference does it make who said it, unless you want to make some kind of ad hominem attack. I've heard of "appeal to authority" but demanding someone else appeal to it is a little strange.

Why would you think someone needs to live in some perfect place in order for their criticism of the US to be valid? Address the issues or quit wasting my time.

If Dave the Aussie hurt your feelings, that is covered by the old adage, the truth hurts.

I'm also not certain Derec even bothered to look it up. It took me about a minute to discover it was an internet meme that's doing the rounds:

https://www.binance.com/ar/square/post/311756544270818

https://nomoretrump.quora.com/https-bringbackdemocracy1-quora-com-Australia-s-response-to-Trump-saying-that-NATO-does-nothing-for-America-Ma

Nevertheless, whoever wrote it, I agree 100% and fuck that orange cunt. But to repeat, took me less than a minute.

 

[laughing dog]

No surprise there.

No surprise that I do not find an article whose sole purpose is to run interference for a DSA candidate who explicitly expressed Marxist ideas particularly persuasive?
You speak truth for once. There is definitely nothing surprising that I don't fall for such blatant propaganda.

No surprise in the continuation of close minded righteous declarations of absolute truth. Very much like a church lady

 

[GenesisNemesis]

No surprise there.

No surprise that I do not find an article whose sole purpose is to run interference for a DSA candidate who explicitly expressed Marxist ideas particularly persuasive?
You speak truth for once. There is definitely nothing surprising that I don't fall for such blatant propaganda.

No surprise in the continuation of close minded righteous declarations of absolute truth. Very much like a church lady

Apparently it's "good form" to be like a church lady.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No amount of failure anywhere will dissuade the far left from thinking "It can work here. We just need to try a little harder".

No amount of fairy dust can completely cover that type of thinking.

You have an extra word in there.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The left scares me far more than the right. Mao's Cultural Revolution' comes to mind.

Tear everything down without any idea of a working system to replace it. And no experience to make it work.

Obviously changes have to e made, the income disparity that is getting worse. Social democracy lokng l[ke a slppery slope to Marxism, at least for some of hte left.

Trump and the wacky right is obviouisly attmping a kind of coup. The far left won't be any better, maybe worse given the chance..

The extremes in either direction are bad. The damage the reich is doing is far in excess of the damage the left is doing. But the reich is very good at pointing to the sins of the left to distract from their evil.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The reason that it doesn't get implemented here is because kleptocrats fond ways to either sabotage or scare people away from implementation.

The other day I saw a news story that said the Social Security system will be broke by 2032. When do I hit the new and improved "retirement" age when I can start getting back some of the money I put into it?

2032.

I was really hoping for some socialism, but I guess it'll be "work until you die" for me.

It's not going to be broke. It's just going to have to reduce everyone's payments by about 22 percent. If we would stop deporting immigrants and let more in, that would solve part of the problem. If we'd raise the amount of salary that people pay into SS, that would solve most of the problem. It's our lazy, worthless congress that is the primary problem. I might still be alive by 2032, if I live even close to the age that my parents did, so it will impact more than just the younger generations. It will impact many of us who have been receiving the benefit that we paid into for many decades. The Right isn't going to save us. The Left might if they work at it.

It's an entirely solvable problem. The problem is the Republicans want to use it to gut Social Security. Thus they do not want the problem fixed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You should probably stop using fear as your primary lens through which to view the world.

Fear is an important primal emotion. In fact, it has been essential to our survival. If you lack reasonable fear, you get your face eaten by leopards because you want to pet them.

Reality doesn't even get a look in.

There are lot of dangerous things in reality.

Sure there is. But that doesn't mean they aren't using fear to lead you around by the nose.

The Republicans ensure there is a problem. Then they blame Democrats for the problem. While ensuring the Democrats can't solve the problem.

And even if they aren't setting out to prevent solutions, look what happened with the housing bill. The Democrats agreed, therefore The Felon decided he could get more and vetoed it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It seems like being the biggest economy on the planet, while losing 4 out of 1000 babies is more than our share, but if it's one of those "have and always will have" problems, there's no point in looking at the countries that are doing socialism wrong, but have fewer dead babies.

Do you have a link for the US maternal deaths of 4 per 1000? That does seem awful high. Though I have read that the US rate is increasing.
The WHO has the US at 21.1/100,000

Apples and oranges!!

Bronzeage is talking about infant mortality. That is a very different category than maternal mortality!

We do not rank well in either category, but note that the infant mortality rate is deceptive. It is routinely used to bash the US system but the majority of this is a measurement problem. For an infant to die it must first exist--and there are huge differences in this. Most of the difference comes down to whether it is considered a live birth in the first place. You can be like Cuba and get a "good" infant mortality rate by setting a minimum weight to be considered a live birth in the first place.

This explains about 2/3 of the difference. We still do have a problem, though--but how much of this is the healthcare system vs the drug war??

Maternal mortality is rising but we no longer have adequate data. The Republicans are killing women and taking the don't-test approach--not counting so people don't have data to point to to show what they are actually doing.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Freedom and opportunities are such vague terms. I certainly value the freedom and opportunity to be shot by an ICE Agent who will never face any consequences.

The chances of that happening are infinitesimal. You are much more likely to get shot during a mugging or carjacking, and even that is improbable.

As for the economy, I have no complaints, especially since I'm not one of the 4 out of a 1000 infants who died before my first birthday. Having made it past that hurdle, I've managed to avoid medical expense related bankruptcy.

I think the discrepancy is mostly due to different definitions of "live births". If a country does not count infants who die within hours of birth among "live births", then their infant mortality rate will be lower. That is in general a problem with international comparisons for any variable where there may be different definitions or reporting differences.

An infant who died within a few hours or days or weeks or months is still one of the infants who would be counted in any infant mortality statistic.

No!!! Any definition that isn't a very strict and literal definition of something doesn't count!!!111

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Same as now except that there is only a single payer.

And herein lies the other problem: In the US, Medicaid and increasingly Medicare reimbursements don’t cover the cost of service provided. Private insurers follow Medicare for their reimbursement fee schedule

Which is why the Medicare for All approach doesn't work--it's based on fantasy numbers that are forced on the providers.

Same as we can't just adopt the drug prices from the UHC countries--once again, fantasy numbers being forced on the providers (drug companies.)

I would love a good universal system--but I have major doubts about whether it actually can be done. The reality is that we are to a large part measuring how well the problems can be hidden rather than how well the systems actually work.

 

[Toni]

Same as now except that there is only a single payer.

And herein lies the other problem: In the US, Medicaid and increasingly Medicare reimbursements don’t cover the cost of service provided. Private insurers follow Medicare for their reimbursement fee schedule

Which is why the Medicare for All approach doesn't work--it's based on fantasy numbers that are forced on the providers.

Same as we can't just adopt the drug prices from the UHC countries--once again, fantasy numbers being forced on the providers (drug companies.)

I would love a good universal system--but I have major doubts about whether it actually can be done. The reality is that we are to a large part measuring how well the problems can be hidden rather than how well the systems actually work.

The ‘fantasy numbers’ are the prices charged by drug companies.

Medical providers can and do come up with cost savings. Those are most effective when not dictated by higher management but are directed by the work experiences of those performing whatever tasks.

The problem in the US is that politicians like to play games with people’s lives by insisting that there is waste and fraud and cutting funding to fit their political narrative.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Freedom and opportunities are such vague terms. I certainly value the freedom and opportunity to be shot by an ICE Agent who will never face any consequences.

The chances of that happening are infinitesimal. You are much more likely to get shot during a mugging or carjacking, and even that is improbable.

As for the economy, I have no complaints, especially since I'm not one of the 4 out of a 1000 infants who died before my first birthday. Having made it past that hurdle, I've managed to avoid medical expense related bankruptcy.

I think the relatively high infant mortality here is mostly due to different definitions of "live births". If a country does not count infants who die within hours of birth among "live births", then their infant mortality rate will be lower. That is in general a problem with international comparisons for any variable where there may be different definitions or reporting differences.

Another reason why US infant mortality may be unusually high is abortion. If almost all "incompatible with life" pregnancies are aborted, that reduces infant mortality. If many parents decide to deliver the baby, who then dies within hours and days, that increases infant mortality statistics.

Freedom and opportunities are such vague terms. I certainly value the freedom and opportunity to be shot by an ICE Agent who will never face any consequences.

The chances of that happening are infinitesimal. You are much more likely to get shot during a mugging or carjacking, and even that is improbable.

As for the economy, I have no complaints, especially since I'm not one of the 4 out of a 1000 infants who died before my first birthday. Having made it past that hurdle, I've managed to avoid medical expense related bankruptcy.

I think the discrepancy is mostly due to different definitions of "live births". If a country does not count infants who die within hours of birth among "live births", then their infant mortality rate will be lower. That is in general a problem with international comparisons for any variable where there may be different definitions or reporting differences.

An infant who died within a few hours or days or weeks or months is still one of the infants who would be counted in any infant mortality statistic.

You're both going too far, just in opposite directions.

In developed countries it comes down to whether there are signs of life. But that is something that we can at best imperfectly measure. There is no magical instant of death to record whether it happened inside or outside. But in some places they do not count it as a live birth if survival is unquestionably impossible. And I suspect the punishment crowd drives up the rate. I'm thinking of a local case, way too premature to have a chance. The doctor did the humane thing and put it in a room and closed the door. A nurse went ape over that. You have to try to save it! The way the country is going the doctors are going to try on cases that would properly be classified as stillbirths.

 

[Toni]

Freedom and opportunities are such vague terms. I certainly value the freedom and opportunity to be shot by an ICE Agent who will never face any consequences.

The chances of that happening are infinitesimal. You are much more likely to get shot during a mugging or carjacking, and even that is improbable.

As for the economy, I have no complaints, especially since I'm not one of the 4 out of a 1000 infants who died before my first birthday. Having made it past that hurdle, I've managed to avoid medical expense related bankruptcy.

I think the relatively high infant mortality here is mostly due to different definitions of "live births". If a country does not count infants who die within hours of birth among "live births", then their infant mortality rate will be lower. That is in general a problem with international comparisons for any variable where there may be different definitions or reporting differences.

Another reason why US infant mortality may be unusually high is abortion. If almost all "incompatible with life" pregnancies are aborted, that reduces infant mortality. If many parents decide to deliver the baby, who then dies within hours and days, that increases infant mortality statistics.

Freedom and opportunities are such vague terms. I certainly value the freedom and opportunity to be shot by an ICE Agent who will never face any consequences.

The chances of that happening are infinitesimal. You are much more likely to get shot during a mugging or carjacking, and even that is improbable.

As for the economy, I have no complaints, especially since I'm not one of the 4 out of a 1000 infants who died before my first birthday. Having made it past that hurdle, I've managed to avoid medical expense related bankruptcy.

I think the discrepancy is mostly due to different definitions of "live births". If a country does not count infants who die within hours of birth among "live births", then their infant mortality rate will be lower. That is in general a problem with international comparisons for any variable where there may be different definitions or reporting differences.

An infant who died within a few hours or days or weeks or months is still one of the infants who would be counted in any infant mortality statistic.

You're both going too far, just in opposite directions.

In developed countries it comes down to whether there are signs of life. But that is something that we can at best imperfectly measure. There is no magical instant of death to record whether it happened inside or outside. But in some places they do not count it as a live birth if survival is unquestionably impossible. And I suspect the punishment crowd drives up the rate. I'm thinking of a local case, way too premature to have a chance. The doctor did the humane thing and put it in a room and closed the door. A nurse went ape over that. You have to try to save it! The way the country is going the doctors are going to try on cases that would properly be classified as stillbirths.

Sigh. Have you ever been present when death was declared? I have. There are clear medical tests that are performed to declare someone has died. Time of death and confirming methods are duly recorded.

I think you are mixing up live births v still births with fetal deaths. In some places, any fetal heartbeat is taken as a sign the fetus is alive and presumably viable. Unfortunately having a heart beat does not guarantee viability.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

For the record: for those scared that the future of the U.S. will be that of California, let it be noted that California has the largest sub-national economy in the world, and the fourth-largest economy overall, surpassing Japan.

Wow, what a horror story!

The real horror story is not the economy, but as I mentioned the political established monopoly that exists there today. The horror story is that the people who founded the United States and California (white Europeans) are rapidly being replaced demographically over the past 10 years. By political design.

As far as economies go I would not expect California to last much longer on that front either. Detroit was once a big economy too while Henry Ford was still alive. Look at Detroit today. Musk and other successful billionaires who have helped build the economy of California are now moving their headquarters out of California now mostly because of bad local government, regulation, and taxes. Just for a moment stop to think how bad that must be for a business with huge financial investment to pull up stakes just because of local government. Who can say what California is going to look like in another 10 years?

I see humans. I see another generation of humans.

Why in the world should I care about what color they are?

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[GenesisNemesis]

View attachment 54670

Cue talking point "waaah but the left does the same thiiiinnng waaahhhh"

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As somebody who grew up under actually existing socialism

I would be interested in any details you would be willing to share

I lived in Germany in the 1980s before the wall went down. I had a girlfriend in East Berlin. Traveled all over the eastern bloc. It was a hell hole. The walls were one way, designed to keep people in so that they couldn’t escape. You are younger than me. But anyone who tells you that the socialist east bloc wasn’t that bad is full of shit.

Yup. 1975, I spend about a month behind the Iron Curtain. Huge difference.

And Berlin it was so obvious. The buildings in the eastern zone that were next to the border looked similar to the ones on the west, but the farther you got from the border the shabbier it got.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don’t think the tea party/libertarians are fascist exactly. I do think that they mistakenly embraced Trumpism, which is an amalgam of kleptocracy and fascism, thinking that it would lead to their adolescent fantasy of no rules for me but plenty for thee if I don’t like you.

This is projection—we see how easily so called conservatives have embraced authoritarianism. At the same time, there is genuine risk of democratic socialism morphing into the same sort of authoritarianism, only called (Maoist) communism.

Authoritarianism is destructive and morally reprehensible regardless of the root ideology.

I think the Tea party was actually a false flag operation by the Republicans from the start.