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Here Comes The Left

I don't know about Amazon.
But my opinion of Walmart went up a bunch during COVID-19.
Nobody could enter without wearing a mask. Just inside the door was a big hand sanitizer station. Smaller ones were scattered around the store. Employees would politely, but firmly, remind shoppers of the stores distancing requirements.
Most Mom and Pop stores didn't bother with any of that.
Tom
Government was choosing which business could succeed and which would have to fail. In my own neck of the woods, some restaurants got to stay open and others had to close. That is not free market capitalism. It might be good politics for you and even feel good to you today..... but it is simply not free market capitalism. And that assumes COVID was a real pandemic that mattered in a material way to the public (which in itself is still a controversy today). Assuming COVID was a real public threat the government could have and should have simply said every business had to follow the same rules in order to stay open. That's not what they did. Government could have acted like an honest umpire in that crises... the umpire letting one team get 3 strikes but letting the other team get 4 strikes before they were out. Our government was not fair at all to free market capitalism.

Whatever the US is doing today, its not free market capitalism and it is IMO getting even worse with Trump mixing government and private enterprise. Maybe it should be called fascism? Or perhaps some word that means government completely held hostage by monopoly powerful unknown interests who are hiding in plain sight?

In any case, what the left should be doing is fervently attacking and fighting the current sad state of fascism. Asking for free market capitalism first! Before making an opinion that we need more socialism for a better life. We might just be perfectly happy just to get rid of the powerful interests making all the decisions. Or if that's too difficult of a task....maybe just smaller government that can't interfere as much or do the big damage we see today?

The left should be truthful with itself knowing what has happened and what could have happened. Before making any advertisements that socialism might be better.
If your point is that extremism from any direction is bad government, I whole heartedly agree.

It is the responsibility of all people to adhere to our highest principles and to seek middle ground. This can best be done by not demonizing ‘the other side.’ There should be no ‘other side.’ There can and will be and should be differing opinions about the best approach to how best to structure governed t to best serve the people. Compromise and middle ground are often key elements in finding the best solutions.
I clearly agree with what you say here. 1000%

But my point is that the left needs to understand what free market capitalism is and what socialism is before knowing that socialism is the answer. All of us appear ignorant of what socialism really is and I get the feeling that many on the left have not even bothered to troubleshoot the problem before they immediately jump to their socialism ideology. Indeed, maybe the problems with America might not be that it needs socialism, maybe America just needs to be what it was supposed to be.
According to your understanding,
1) what is really socialism,
2) what is really free market capitalism, and when did the US have it, and
3) what was America supposed to be?


I ask, because if you are invoking the founding father's views, that included legalized slavery, no voting rights for women , , and no direct election of senators, among other things.
1) I already answered that earlier in this thread. I believe socialism is when Obama and Bush bailed out and made whole private institutional banks at the public expense. Public tax payers were forced by the government to enrich private CEO bank individuals. Public money (socialism) to bail out private banks yet in better times the profits from those same banks kept private.

2) Free market capitalism was farming in the US before the corporations started to take this over. Private individuals competing in the marketplace with no monopoly. Same laws and regulations for every farmer. After T. Roosevelt broke up the trusts the US had something close to free market capitalism in other industry.

3) The land of opportunity and freedom. That means small government and everyone given the chance to succeed regardless of race and color. The laws, regulation, and playing field the same for everyone. Its still not perfect but generally, the hardest working and willing to take risks are the people who do the best. They are also the same ones who benefit society the most.
 
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I don't know about Amazon.
But my opinion of Walmart went up a bunch during COVID-19.
Nobody could enter without wearing a mask. Just inside the door was a big hand sanitizer station. Smaller ones were scattered around the store. Employees would politely, but firmly, remind shoppers of the stores distancing requirements.
Most Mom and Pop stores didn't bother with any of that.
Tom
Government was choosing which business could succeed and which would have to fail. In my own neck of the woods, some restaurants got to stay open and others had to close. That is not free market capitalism. It might be good politics for you and even feel good to you today..... but it is simply not free market capitalism. And that assumes COVID was a real pandemic that mattered in a material way to the public (which in itself is still a controversy today). Assuming COVID was a real public threat the government could have and should have simply said every business had to follow the same rules in order to stay open. That's not what they did. Government could have acted like an honest umpire in that crises... the umpire letting one team get 3 strikes but letting the other team get 4 strikes before they were out. Our government was not fair at all to free market capitalism.

Whatever the US is doing today, its not free market capitalism and it is IMO getting even worse with Trump mixing government and private enterprise. Maybe it should be called fascism? Or perhaps some word that means government completely held hostage by monopoly powerful unknown interests who are hiding in plain sight?

In any case, what the left should be doing is fervently attacking and fighting the current sad state of fascism. Asking for free market capitalism first! Before making an opinion that we need more socialism for a better life. We might just be perfectly happy just to get rid of the powerful interests making all the decisions. Or if that's too difficult of a task....maybe just smaller government that can't interfere as much or do the big damage we see today?

The left should be truthful with itself knowing what has happened and what could have happened. Before making any advertisements that socialism might be better.
If your point is that extremism from any direction is bad government, I whole heartedly agree.

It is the responsibility of all people to adhere to our highest principles and to seek middle ground. This can best be done by not demonizing ‘the other side.’ There should be no ‘other side.’ There can and will be and should be differing opinions about the best approach to how best to structure governed t to best serve the people. Compromise and middle ground are often key elements in finding the best solutions.
I clearly agree with what you say here. 1000%

But my point is that the left needs to understand what free market capitalism is and what socialism is before knowing that socialism is the answer. All of us appear ignorant of what socialism really is and I get the feeling that many on the left have not even bothered to troubleshoot the problem before they immediately jump to their socialism ideology. Indeed, maybe the problems with America might not be that it needs socialism, maybe America just needs to be what it was supposed to be.
According to your understanding,
1) what is really socialism,
2) what is really free market capitalism, and when did the US have it, and
3) what was America supposed to be?


I ask, because if you are invoking the founding father's views, that included legalized slavery, no voting rights for women , , and no direct election of senators, among other things.
1) I already answered that earlier in this thread. I believe socialism is when Obama and Bush bailed out and made whole private institutional banks at the public expense. Public tax payers were forced by the government to enrich private CEO bank individuals. Public money (socialism) to bail out private banks yet in better times the profits from those same banks kept private.
Brilliant. Not only have you provided a specific example without indicating what makes it an example of socialism; But you have followed up by describing taxation (not socialism), and then finally attempting a definition, but using the word you are seeking to define as part thereof, thus rendering it useless.

Not only can you not define "socialism"; It appears you don't really grasp what a "definition" is, either.

You surely can't be unable to see just how incapable you are of making a useful contribution here; Not only do you not know whaf you are on about, you don't even know how to be on about stuff to begin with.
2) Free market capitalism was farming in the US before the corporations started to take this over. Private individuals competing in the marketplace with no monopoly. Same laws and regulations for every farmer.
And it worked so well that the dustbowl wiped out agriculture in the central US for a generation, and damaged the world economy so badly that it didn't recover until a World War forced full employment at government expense upon every developed nation.

What an excellent goal you have. :rolleyesa:
After T. Roosevelt broke up the trusts the US had something close to free market capitalism in other industry.
🤣
3) The land of opportunity and freedom. That means small government and everyone given the chance to succeed regardless of race and color. The laws, regulation, and playing field the same for everyone. Its still not perfect but generally, the hardest working and willing to take risks are the people who do the best. They are also the same ones who benefit society the most.
And those who can't work hard, or can't afford to take risks; Are they to just shuffle off and die, or are they to be slaves to the hard-working risk-takers?

Do you think it's best for society to support those best able to support themselves; Or to support those least able to support themselves?

Do you even know what "society" is? Given your abject failure to understand the meanings of "socialism" and "definition", I sincerely doubt it.
 
Do you even know what "society" is? Given your abject failure to understand the meanings of "socialism" and "definition", I sincerely doubt it.
Par for the RW ignoramus course. As long as they can spit out something that satisfies their urge to blather, they consider it a “won” argument.

CWOT.
(IMHO of course.)
 
And those who can't work hard, or can't afford to take risks; Are they to just shuffle off and die, or are they to be slaves to the hard-working risk-takers?

Do you think it's best for society to support those best able to support themselves; Or to support those least able to support themselves?

Do you even know what "society" is? Given your abject failure to understand the meanings of "socialism" and "definition", I sincerely doubt it.
You have not defined socialism either. Nor has anyone else here so far. You have been so quick to criticize but slow to offer anything of substance!

Do you think it's best for society to support those best able to support themselves; Or to support those least able to support themselves?
The society needs to reward those best able to support themselves. But it also needs to support those least able to support themselves. Both are extremely important IMHO.
 
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Brilliant. Not only have you provided a specific example without indicating what makes it an example of socialism; But you have followed up by describing taxation (not socialism), and then finally attempting a definition, but using the word you are seeking to define as part thereof, thus rendering it useless.
What the hell do you think taxation is!! It is taking 1 person's labor and pooling it to share with others forced by the state.
 
Brilliant. Not only have you provided a specific example without indicating what makes it an example of socialism; But you have followed up by describing taxation (not socialism), and then finally attempting a definition, but using the word you are seeking to define as part thereof, thus rendering it useless.
What the hell do you think taxation is!! It is taking 1 person's labor and pooling it to share with others forced by the state.
If taxation is socialism, humans have been practicing socialism since before Christ.
 
Considering all the bitching you did about Biden,
I was "bitching" about his prevaricating about running in 2024, which caused Kamala Harris to be foisted on us without a primary, which then led to Trump winning.
MMcC situation is very different. He was not running for reelection anyway, and Andy Barr already won the primary back in May.
it is more so to use a very sick, too sick to no longer perform his duties, man just to keep his seat.
I think Diane Feinstein may be a better comparison here.
Are you sure about that?
I have seen no evidence that he is. Did you?
 
No, you are taking burden of proof too literally here.
No, since the operative word is proof, not vibes.
The burden of proof is on the side making the allegation, but that doesn't mean they actually must be the source of the evidence. It is entirely valid to use the defense's statements in evidence.
True. But they should still be statements that in some way prove the prosecution's or plaintiff's case. It should not be about you not liking how the defendant is acting.
However, these cases are in the public eye--the courtroom doesn't require the defendant to say anything, but their political position does. And when I consider their defense to be false that establishes that the accuser is telling at least a reasonable approximation of the truth.
Can you be specific here? In the EJC case, the entire claim by EJC is not believable. Allegedly raped in a changing room of a busy department store where there would be people within shouting distance. Conveniently does not remember when all this supposedly took place. Dress does not have any evidence of sperm cells. DNA samples of several people were recovered, but are more likely to have been transferred when she wore the dress to a Vanity Fair interview rather than 25 years earlier. And note the timing of her allegations just in time to promote her misandrist book.

All of this is certainly should not be outweighed by your (and the NYC jury's) personal dislike of Trump or how he is acting.
 
If taxation is socialism, humans have been practicing socialism since before Christ.
It's interesting that both RVonse and several posters from the left (e.g. Toni with her claim that government regulation is socialism) agree on overly broad definition of "socialism" that would make almost anything socialism.
 
Brilliant. Not only have you provided a specific example without indicating what makes it an example of socialism; But you have followed up by describing taxation (not socialism), and then finally attempting a definition, but using the word you are seeking to define as part thereof, thus rendering it useless.
What the hell do you think taxation is!! It is taking 1 person's labor and pooling it to share with others forced by the state.
How do you think you have a road to drive on, electricity to play games on the internet or clean water?
 
And those who can't work hard, or can't afford to take risks; Are they to just shuffle off and die, or are they to be slaves to the hard-working risk-takers?

Do you think it's best for society to support those best able to support themselves; Or to support those least able to support themselves?

Do you even know what "society" is? Given your abject failure to understand the meanings of "socialism" and "definition", I sincerely doubt it.
You have not defined socialism either. Nor has anyone else here so far. You have been so quick to criticize but slow to offer anything of substance!

Do you think it's best for society to support those best able to support themselves; Or to support those least able to support themselves?
The society needs to reward those best able to support themselves. But it also needs to support those least able to support themselves. Both are extremely important IMHO.
Society needs to support all of its people, including those who can and those who cannot support themselves. But really who exactly is it who can 'support themselves?'

We all rely on infrastructure and we all share the costs associated with infrastructure. Sure, there probably exist some few people who live totally off the grid and away from what most of us see as civilization and probably they get by on their own labor but likely they got started using goods that were produced by makers supported by and supporting society.
 
Considering all the bitching you did about Biden,
I was "bitching" about his prevaricating about running in 2024, which caused Kamala Harris to be foisted on us without a primary, which then led to Trump winning.
MMcC situation is very different. He was not running for reelection anyway, and Andy Barr already won the primary back in May.
it is more so to use a very sick, too sick to no longer perform his duties, man just to keep his seat.
I think Diane Feinstein may be a better comparison here.
Are you sure about that?
I have seen no evidence that he is. Did you?
Really? McConnell's health has been in question for quite some time now. For good reason.

And of course the elephant in the room is: Donald Trump whose physical and mental health and intellectual acuity was markedly sub par 10 years ago and has only gotten worse since.
 
If taxation is socialism, humans have been practicing socialism since before Christ.
It's interesting that both RVonse and several posters from the left (e.g. Toni with her claim that government regulation is socialism) agree on overly broad definition of "socialism" that would make almost anything socialism.

Brilliant. Not only have you provided a specific example without indicating what makes it an example of socialism; But you have followed up by describing taxation (not socialism), and then finally attempting a definition, but using the word you are seeking to define as part thereof, thus rendering it useless.
What the hell do you think taxation is!! It is taking 1 person's labor and pooling it to share with others forced by the state.
If taxation is socialism, humans have been practicing socialism since before Christ.
Whats your point?

I believe humans have been practicing socialism before Christ. One form or another. But that does not tell us whether socialism is a good system or not. Because slavery was also practiced before Christ as well.
 
Brilliant. Not only have you provided a specific example without indicating what makes it an example of socialism; But you have followed up by describing taxation (not socialism), and then finally attempting a definition, but using the word you are seeking to define as part thereof, thus rendering it useless.
What the hell do you think taxation is!! It is taking 1 person's labor and pooling it to share with others forced by the state.
How do you think you have a road to drive on, electricity to play games on the internet or clean water?
Yup, sounds like Libertarian claptrap.
 
You have not defined socialism either.
It is workers owning the means of production. It's not that difficult of a definition to find. Which means when you say Obama and Bush bailing out banks is socialism shows you don't have a fucking clue what socialism is either.

But I'll give you the definition you want - socialism is anything MAGAtards (and previously teabaggers) don't like.
 
Here is the original ProPublica story.

Understandable.

The police confronted her with a big contradiction in her story, she recanted.
Unfortunately people like you become police officers and serve on juries.

It is no wonder that rape is vastly under-reported.
 
No one is suggesting that anyone be convicted without due process.
How about expelled from university without due process?
No one has suggested that anyone be convicted of anything without proof beyond a reasonable doubt, all legal rights observed, legal counsel provided, etc.
But they weren't convicted, just expelled. A convenient way to avoid having to prove guilt. But major punishment anyway.

The government keeps looking for ways of bypassing the concept of having to prove it.

This is one such example (the universities were acting as encouraged by the government).

Pushing the payment system to shun industries. Look at the porn market: incest-themed stuff suddenly shifted to step-incest themed. Again, the government was behind that.

Some places it costs you more to challenge a ticket than the fine--and it's court costs that you don't get back even if you prevail. Or what happened to a former coworker--ex lied about child support. The government was after him to repay what they had paid her--didn't matter that it was an open-and-shut case, proving he didn't owe the money would cost more than paying it, and he wouldn't recover costs if he fought it.

We switched to the millimeter wave scanners at the airport. It's been proven in a real world situation that you can smuggle small metal items past them, and it has been shown theoretically that you can't see explosives carefully feathered onto the body. Combine those, they have basically no chance against a well-disguised bomb that would have been caught by the metal detector. Security went down--but the scanners stop money mules carrying cash on their body. Somehow I find this highly suspicious. (Millimeter wave is better at detecting a clumsy bomb, but to date every attack has been by means that security could not catch--don't assume a stupid adversary!)

And, on a related note: CBP conducting searches pretty much anywhere (within 100 miles of a border--but international airports are borders) without a warrant. I drove through one of their traps once--directed everyone off the highway at a rest stop, one lane going past a bunch of equipment. No indication of what was going on but it makes no sense other than as an electronic search of the car. Nope, cops are free to use cameras without a warrant but any form of sensory augmentation (but not simply magnification) requires a warrant.

I'm sure this list is far from complete, it's just what comes to mind at the moment.

I think that (some) men have a pretty vested interest in believing that women lie about rape. Otherwise, they might have to think poorly of some of their buddies or even of themselves.
Doesn't mean all of us. I have never been in a situation with the slightest doubt about consent.
Thinking of young adults abd teens, I think that there definitely can be some room for differing perceptions. Certainly judgement can be clouded by growing sexual urgency coupled with lack of general life and sex experience.. it would be lovely to think that couples are deeply in puppy love and heavily invested in their partners well being but honestly, young, inexperienced, flooded with hormones: people do not perceive situations the save way.

Which underscores the need for enthusiastic consent. A more passive person might withdraw emotionally if they are overwhelmed and reluctant it avoids t and a more dominant person could see acquiescence as consent instead of fear and not knowing what to do to get out if a situation. We’re talking heat if the mom t decisions being made without much actual thought process.
Withdrawing would be neutral, not positive.
 
No one is suggesting that anyone be convicted without due process.
How about expelled from university without due process?
No one has suggested that anyone be convicted of anything without proof beyond a reasonable doubt, all legal rights observed, legal counsel provided, etc.
But they weren't convicted, just expelled. A convenient way to avoid having to prove guilt. But major punishment anyway.

The government keeps looking for ways of bypassing the concept of having to prove it.

This is one such example (the universities were acting as encouraged by the government).

Pushing the payment system to shun industries. Look at the porn market: incest-themed stuff suddenly shifted to step-incest themed. Again, the government was behind that.

Some places it costs you more to challenge a ticket than the fine--and it's court costs that you don't get back even if you prevail. Or what happened to a former coworker--ex lied about child support. The government was after him to repay what they had paid her--didn't matter that it was an open-and-shut case, proving he didn't owe the money would cost more than paying it, and he wouldn't recover costs if he fought it.

We switched to the millimeter wave scanners at the airport. It's been proven in a real world situation that you can smuggle small metal items past them, and it has been shown theoretically that you can't see explosives carefully feathered onto the body. Combine those, they have basically no chance against a well-disguised bomb that would have been caught by the metal detector. Security went down--but the scanners stop money mules carrying cash on their body. Somehow I find this highly suspicious. (Millimeter wave is better at detecting a clumsy bomb, but to date every attack has been by means that security could not catch--don't assume a stupid adversary!)

And, on a related note: CBP conducting searches pretty much anywhere (within 100 miles of a border--but international airports are borders) without a warrant. I drove through one of their traps once--directed everyone off the highway at a rest stop, one lane going past a bunch of equipment. No indication of what was going on but it makes no sense other than as an electronic search of the car. Nope, cops are free to use cameras without a warrant but any form of sensory augmentation (but not simply magnification) requires a warrant.

I'm sure this list is far from complete, it's just what comes to mind at the moment.

I think that (some) men have a pretty vested interest in believing that women lie about rape. Otherwise, they might have to think poorly of some of their buddies or even of themselves.
Doesn't mean all of us. I have never been in a situation with the slightest doubt about consent.
Thinking of young adults abd teens, I think that there definitely can be some room for differing perceptions. Certainly judgement can be clouded by growing sexual urgency coupled with lack of general life and sex experience.. it would be lovely to think that couples are deeply in puppy love and heavily invested in their partners well being but honestly, young, inexperienced, flooded with hormones: people do not perceive situations the save way.

Which underscores the need for enthusiastic consent. A more passive person might withdraw emotionally if they are overwhelmed and reluctant it avoids t and a more dominant person could see acquiescence as consent instead of fear and not knowing what to do to get out if a situation. We’re talking heat if the mom t decisions being made without much actual thought process.
Withdrawing would be neutral, not positive.
Emotional withdrawal is not neutral. It is the same thing as freezing, seeking to avoid a confrontation/danger.

If a student is caught cheating, they are frequently subjected to discipline, including expulsion. If a student is found to be guilty of theft on campus, instead of pressing charges with the police, the student is often expelled or at least, expelled from on campus housing.

If a student is credibly accused of sexual assault, the victim is heavily discouraged from going to the police. In general, rape victims who go to the police are quite frequently discouraged from pressing charges.

A university has a strong motive to avoid any of their students being charged with theft or with rape ( or other crimes). In both cases, the victims are discouraged from making police reports and he accused is sometimes expelled if the charges are credible.

Occasionally the accused is not expelled but is expected to move to a different t firm, assuming on campus housing ( which is less frequent these days). They may also be expected to alter their class schedule so that the victim does not have to see them in class. These are far short of expulsion which is still far far short of being charged with rape. The accused can move in with their life without the weight of a conviction to interfere with their future careers or housing options.

In any case, the victim has to live with what happened, often has little or no say in what disciplinary or criminal charges are filed against their attacker. They must endure invasive exams to ensure that there is no disease, pregnancy or other physical damage in need of surgical repair or other medical intervention .

Your sympathy lies entirely with accused males. You continue to allege that the rape victim in the article linked in this thread lied because there were some inconsistencies in her accounting if her attack, even though it was later proven that the attacker raped other women using the same method of accessing victims. Including her.

Why?

Did you not actually read the article?

Do you find it difficult to read with comprehension?

Why do you always side with rapists?
 
Your statement reminds me of when during the Biden administration Dems tried to pretend that everything was infrastructure in order to pass Spendapalooza.
Politicians are always claiming borrowing is for infrastructure. In 40 years of voting I have yet to find them not trying to slip other stuff in.
 
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