The dominant paradigm in science—atheist, skeptic, materialist, critical, analytic—has achieved a great deal. However, to this approach, the fundamental nature of the soul of mankind is a locked door. The soul of mankind can only be understood through literature. And the most powerful literature for the understanding of mankind is that which is commonly understood as devotional or religious. Even the most credulous religious believer has far better insight into the soul of mankind than does our current scientific elite. Billions upon billions of people continue to devote themselves to this literature, whilst our scientists rail against it in vain. The current scientific paradigm is doomed to martyrdom and death. The new paradigm, rooted in literature, will provide mankind with self-understanding to propel into a the new golden age.
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Historical Jesus
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bilby
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Of course it does. I've been there. Did a lovely driving tour of the Kakadu, returning via Nitmiluk (Katherine) with a few days in Darwin at each end of the trip.
Lots of salties, very few people, beautiful scenery.
What I want to know is, how is possible that South Wales isn't the greatest tourist destination on Earth? I mean, if it's anything like NSW....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13RhSc-DaOI (2:12)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13RhSc-DaOI (2:12)
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
The NT exists, so does Aesop's Fables. So doers the poem Night Before Christmas onwhich our modern Santa Claus myth was spun.
Like the NT we do not know the exact authors of the tales called Aesop's Fables.
en.wikipedia.org
The gospels are most likely fiction more than anything else.
Like the NT we do not know the exact authors of the tales called Aesop's Fables.
Aesop - Wikipedia
The gospels are most likely fiction more than anything else.
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Well, if history had taken a different turn we could be worshiping a talking tortoise and hare from one of the fables as gods.
I do not think understanding is the right word. More likee interpreting writings which have no substantive basis in facr.
Faith is a belief in something when there is no proof.
I do not think understanding is the right word. More likee interpreting writings which have no substantive basis in facr.
Faith is a belief in something when there is no proof.
TomC
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You say this like it's a new concept.
It's not. It's how Christians have been dominating the planet for centuries.
Centuries.
I've heard Christianity referred to as "The religion of slaves". I think that's a little over the top, but essentially true. At least historically it has been. You are demonstrating that it hasn't changed much since the conquistadors. "Submit or die, because Jesus says."
Tom
I'm saying that the NT constitutes a powerful tool for the management of human affairs. This fact, as you point out, has been amply demonstrated. The question is how best to use this tool. You seem to want to simply wish it away, somehow void its power. This is vain effort. It behooves the truly emancipated individual to gain mastery over the meaning of the text and its use. Those who refuse this work will simply exist under its power without any role in its application.
Submit, become a slave, or die? Colonialism all over again?
TomC
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Exactly.
It's a collection of vague and often demonstrably false claims. It was designed by the Roman elite to serve their purposes, centuries ago.
And it's still serving that purpose. People like the Pope, Billy Graham, and Creflo Dollar didn't get so wealthy because God gave them a credit card He'd pay off. No, they tell the little people Scriptural lies and let the power and wealth roll in.
Tom
This is any extremely reductive view that robs you of any ability to make use of it.
It's also used for other things, socialism, for example.
bilby
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Because Queensland is better in every way.
bilby
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Well, it did when almost everyone was a farmer, with a small clique of aristocrats telling them what to do, what to think, and who to fight.
Not so much so now that life is massively more complex and more free than it was under medieval feudalism.
The NT is a programme for human emancipation. The ruling powers co-opted it and used it to thwart emancipation, but, in the end, the programme overcame. Likewise, it will overcome the attempts of our current technocratic elites to thwart it.
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Emancipation for who?
Not for gays and women. Not for those who think independently.
Gospel Jessus reinforced Jewish prophets and Mosaic Law, in other words Leviticus.
Is Leviticus a guide for moderb living?
The Sermon On The Mount says the meek shall imherit the Earth, are you meek? Do uou prcethe Sermon On The Mount?
BTW, do you fornicate? Fortification is definitely out according to the NT.
NT
What you cal a guide for living is what happens in conserve Muslim states. The ancient Hebrews in terms of culture do not seem to be much different than the modem conservative Islam.
The conservative Orthodox Jews live in accordance with the bible. Separation of the sexes as in modern conservative Muslims. Patriarchy.
So Robot, start a thread where you explicitly define how we should live according to the NT.
Not for gays and women. Not for those who think independently.
Gospel Jessus reinforced Jewish prophets and Mosaic Law, in other words Leviticus.
Is Leviticus a guide for moderb living?
The Sermon On The Mount says the meek shall imherit the Earth, are you meek? Do uou prcethe Sermon On The Mount?
BTW, do you fornicate? Fortification is definitely out according to the NT.
NT
What you cal a guide for living is what happens in conserve Muslim states. The ancient Hebrews in terms of culture do not seem to be much different than the modem conservative Islam.
The conservative Orthodox Jews live in accordance with the bible. Separation of the sexes as in modern conservative Muslims. Patriarchy.
So Robot, start a thread where you explicitly define how we should live according to the NT.
Lumpenproletariat
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Telling Lies about 1st-century miracle-workers
Misquoting Josephus
Is it sometimes appropriate to tell lies in order to promote an idea which is healthy for society, or to discourage some unhealthy beliefs people have?
Efraim Palvanov -- --
Here's a very reliable Jewish scholar who's right probably 98% of the time. Yet like so many other scholars, he feels the need to distort the truth about the 1st century context of Jesus. Again and again we hear the lie that there were other reported miracle-workers similar to Jesus -- in the first century AD especially, but also throughout the centuries prior to the appearance of Jesus in about 30 AD. But when you check the facts, this turns out to be a gross distortion. It has to go into the "LIE" category, because the facts are plain to anyone who investigates and asks who these miracle-workers were and what the sources are for them. And the sources are absent in all cases, and anyone could easily check the sources to determine this.
It's popular to toss out a laundry list of alleged ancient miracle-workers, but not quote the ancient sources for them.
It is dishonest to report these as "miracle-workers" when there is no report from anyone saying any such miracles were done by them, or that anyone believed they did such things. And even their fraudulent promises to do such acts are very few. It's false to say there were "many" such messianic pretenders who were miracle-workers. The number of those reported to have done such acts is zero, while the number of reported charlatan messianists promising to do mighty deeds is probably only two. The account of them is in Josephus Antiquities Book 20, chapter 8 (8.6) (167), with mention also in the Book of Acts (5:36-37) (21:37-38). These are extremely rare cases in the literature suggesting there were reported miracle-workers. Outside of the Josephus and Book of Acts references there is nothing about them to be found. It's dishonest to pounce on such a rare mention of these charlatans and insinuate from this that there many reputed miracle workers running around, with Jesus being only one of many such characters.
This distortion of the truth is obviously done to insinuate that the reported Jesus miracles in the Gospel accounts are typical of many other such reported miracle legends of that period. This has to be labeled a LIE for its extreme distortion of the real historical situation and context of the 1st century. There is NO such miracle mentality of the period to be found in the popular Jewish-Greek-Roman culture prior to about 50 AD. The absence of such thinking is amazing if you look at the real facts of the time, to be found in the written accounts of the period. While as we proceed into the 2nd century and beyond, by contrast, we encounter a huge flood of such miracle myths and fads and folklore, showing the period before 50 AD to be vastly out of character to the historical period generally. The large body of Jewish literature stretching back several centuries, to 500 B.C., contains virtually zero miracle stories, with some cases of miracle legends popping up in earlier centuries, back to Moses, e.g.
The only serious miracle legend is that of Elijah/Elisha, in I and II Kings. These stories date from before 500 BC, leaving the following 500-600 years virtually devoid of any new miracle legends. And the Elijah/Elisha legends are virtually forgotten by Jews after 500 BC. There's virtually zero about them in the literature of the Hellenistic period up to the time of Jesus. It's only after the appearance of Jesus in the 1st century AD that we see a revival of interest in Elijah. There's nothing to provide any context for miracles or showing any Jewish need for miracle-workers during these pre-Christian centuries.
The charlatans mentioned in Josephus almost certainly had much larger followings than Jesus had -- "huge followings, tens of thousands of followers, maybe more" -- yes, and such political upheavals, insurrections, riots were the normal subject matter of the mainline historians who focused their attention on the wars and politics and affairs of the rich and powerful and not on a healer attracting hundreds or thousands of peasants seeking cures from their physical afflictions.
Exceptions? There might be 2 exceptions: The story of Tobit mentions one miracle (but no miracle-worker), and the Book of Daniel relates the 6th-century BC prophet escaping from the lions, while his enemies are cast into the den and promptly ripped to shreds and devoured. Also, Sirach recounts the prophets Elijah and Elisha (along with all the other Jewish heroes going back to Adam). These minor exceptions illustrate the rule that the Jewish culture of this period had virtually no interest in miracle legends or miracle-workers.
The popular theory is that the Jesus miracle stories are some kind of product of the general period, reflecting the current Jewish and pagan cultures. And yet no one ever produces examples of such miracle subject matter in that period. Instead history shows that the Jesus miracle-worker crashes into history, in about 30 AD, reported page after page performing these unprecedented miracle acts, with nothing earlier having any similarity to him showing what might have inspired those early believers to create this miracle-worker figure totally unlike anything earlier.
The question needs to be asked: Is there a need today to rewrite history, to distort the ancient history record, in order to discredit the picture of Jesus as a 1st-century miracle-worker? Is there a need to falsify the record, deny the facts from the written accounts, in order to stamp out the widespread belief in the miracles of Jesus? Is this belief in miracles 2000 years ago so dangerous and damaging to humans that it's best to stamp out this belief no matter what it takes? even to the point of lying about the historical record, making up stories about non-existent miracle-workers similar to Jesus? is the crusade to stamp out the Jesus belief so important that it's necessary to create fictions of our own in order to accomplish this reprogramming of people's minds today? Do we need this Enlightenment today, to implant the politically-correct ideas, to replace the facts of history with what we know to be more healthy kinds of thinking or believing? Do these more healthy kinds of thinking have more importance than the actual facts of history to be found in the ancient writings?
Why do these debunkers crusading to wipe the Jesus facts clean from the record need to go this far in order to accomplish this purging project? Of course they can honestly disbelieve the evidence from the 1st-century documents and suggest skepticism toward this evidence. But aren't they crossing the line when they fabricate their own miracle legends and plant them into Josephus or other ancient documents? Why does stamping out the Jesus miracle-worker take such high priority for these debunkers?
It's obvious that believers also tell lies in order to promote their beliefs, or make themselves more secure in their beliefs. Believers and nonbelievers alike do this, but why do even the scholars do it? Shouldn't there be a consensus that the scholars should stop it?
Despite the above falsehoods by Palvanov, most of the lecture is truthful about how Christianity adopted symbols and traditions from the earlier Jewish and Greek and Roman culture. The post-biblical Jewish literature -- Dead Sea Scrolls, Apocalyptic literature, etc. -- is necessary for studying the direction of thought going into the Christian era.
. . . .
(This Wall of Text to be continued)
Misquoting Josephus
Is it sometimes appropriate to tell lies in order to promote an idea which is healthy for society, or to discourage some unhealthy beliefs people have?
Efraim Palvanov -- --
Here's a very reliable Jewish scholar who's right probably 98% of the time. Yet like so many other scholars, he feels the need to distort the truth about the 1st century context of Jesus. Again and again we hear the lie that there were other reported miracle-workers similar to Jesus -- in the first century AD especially, but also throughout the centuries prior to the appearance of Jesus in about 30 AD. But when you check the facts, this turns out to be a gross distortion. It has to go into the "LIE" category, because the facts are plain to anyone who investigates and asks who these miracle-workers were and what the sources are for them. And the sources are absent in all cases, and anyone could easily check the sources to determine this.
It's popular to toss out a laundry list of alleged ancient miracle-workers, but not quote the ancient sources for them.
It's necessary to get the facts straight, not make up our own facts in order to promote an ideology, as Palvanov does here: There are no reported 1st-century miracle-workers in Josephus, though there is mention of the messiah-charlatans. It's mentioned that at least one of them promised to do "wonders and signs" with God's power, including to cause the walls of Jerusalem to collapse. But these are reported as charlatans only by Josephus, who says they did nothing except get their butts kicked by the Romans and their followers killed or put to flight.
It is dishonest to report these as "miracle-workers" when there is no report from anyone saying any such miracles were done by them, or that anyone believed they did such things. And even their fraudulent promises to do such acts are very few. It's false to say there were "many" such messianic pretenders who were miracle-workers. The number of those reported to have done such acts is zero, while the number of reported charlatan messianists promising to do mighty deeds is probably only two. The account of them is in Josephus Antiquities Book 20, chapter 8 (8.6) (167), with mention also in the Book of Acts (5:36-37) (21:37-38). These are extremely rare cases in the literature suggesting there were reported miracle-workers. Outside of the Josephus and Book of Acts references there is nothing about them to be found. It's dishonest to pounce on such a rare mention of these charlatans and insinuate from this that there many reputed miracle workers running around, with Jesus being only one of many such characters.
This distortion of the truth is obviously done to insinuate that the reported Jesus miracles in the Gospel accounts are typical of many other such reported miracle legends of that period. This has to be labeled a LIE for its extreme distortion of the real historical situation and context of the 1st century. There is NO such miracle mentality of the period to be found in the popular Jewish-Greek-Roman culture prior to about 50 AD. The absence of such thinking is amazing if you look at the real facts of the time, to be found in the written accounts of the period. While as we proceed into the 2nd century and beyond, by contrast, we encounter a huge flood of such miracle myths and fads and folklore, showing the period before 50 AD to be vastly out of character to the historical period generally. The large body of Jewish literature stretching back several centuries, to 500 B.C., contains virtually zero miracle stories, with some cases of miracle legends popping up in earlier centuries, back to Moses, e.g.
The only serious miracle legend is that of Elijah/Elisha, in I and II Kings. These stories date from before 500 BC, leaving the following 500-600 years virtually devoid of any new miracle legends. And the Elijah/Elisha legends are virtually forgotten by Jews after 500 BC. There's virtually zero about them in the literature of the Hellenistic period up to the time of Jesus. It's only after the appearance of Jesus in the 1st century AD that we see a revival of interest in Elijah. There's nothing to provide any context for miracles or showing any Jewish need for miracle-workers during these pre-Christian centuries.
The charlatans mentioned in Josephus almost certainly had much larger followings than Jesus had -- "huge followings, tens of thousands of followers, maybe more" -- yes, and such political upheavals, insurrections, riots were the normal subject matter of the mainline historians who focused their attention on the wars and politics and affairs of the rich and powerful and not on a healer attracting hundreds or thousands of peasants seeking cures from their physical afflictions.
There is no claim in the Dead Sea Scrolls that the Teacher of Righteousness either did miracles or was going to return and perform miracles later. There is no mention in all the Dead Sea Scrolls of anyone performing miracle acts. All the apocalyptic literature and other Jewish literature of this period is devoid of miracle-workers or miracle stories.
Exceptions? There might be 2 exceptions: The story of Tobit mentions one miracle (but no miracle-worker), and the Book of Daniel relates the 6th-century BC prophet escaping from the lions, while his enemies are cast into the den and promptly ripped to shreds and devoured. Also, Sirach recounts the prophets Elijah and Elisha (along with all the other Jewish heroes going back to Adam). These minor exceptions illustrate the rule that the Jewish culture of this period had virtually no interest in miracle legends or miracle-workers.
The popular theory is that the Jesus miracle stories are some kind of product of the general period, reflecting the current Jewish and pagan cultures. And yet no one ever produces examples of such miracle subject matter in that period. Instead history shows that the Jesus miracle-worker crashes into history, in about 30 AD, reported page after page performing these unprecedented miracle acts, with nothing earlier having any similarity to him showing what might have inspired those early believers to create this miracle-worker figure totally unlike anything earlier.
The question needs to be asked: Is there a need today to rewrite history, to distort the ancient history record, in order to discredit the picture of Jesus as a 1st-century miracle-worker? Is there a need to falsify the record, deny the facts from the written accounts, in order to stamp out the widespread belief in the miracles of Jesus? Is this belief in miracles 2000 years ago so dangerous and damaging to humans that it's best to stamp out this belief no matter what it takes? even to the point of lying about the historical record, making up stories about non-existent miracle-workers similar to Jesus? is the crusade to stamp out the Jesus belief so important that it's necessary to create fictions of our own in order to accomplish this reprogramming of people's minds today? Do we need this Enlightenment today, to implant the politically-correct ideas, to replace the facts of history with what we know to be more healthy kinds of thinking or believing? Do these more healthy kinds of thinking have more importance than the actual facts of history to be found in the ancient writings?
Why do these debunkers crusading to wipe the Jesus facts clean from the record need to go this far in order to accomplish this purging project? Of course they can honestly disbelieve the evidence from the 1st-century documents and suggest skepticism toward this evidence. But aren't they crossing the line when they fabricate their own miracle legends and plant them into Josephus or other ancient documents? Why does stamping out the Jesus miracle-worker take such high priority for these debunkers?
It's obvious that believers also tell lies in order to promote their beliefs, or make themselves more secure in their beliefs. Believers and nonbelievers alike do this, but why do even the scholars do it? Shouldn't there be a consensus that the scholars should stop it?
Despite the above falsehoods by Palvanov, most of the lecture is truthful about how Christianity adopted symbols and traditions from the earlier Jewish and Greek and Roman culture. The post-biblical Jewish literature -- Dead Sea Scrolls, Apocalyptic literature, etc. -- is necessary for studying the direction of thought going into the Christian era.
. . . .
(This Wall of Text to be continued)
Last edited:
Lumpenproletariat
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Revised listing/ranking of alleged miracle-workers
If there are truly "parallel" miracle-workers alongside Jesus, they have to be compared in terms of the probability, or the degree of evidence we have, based on the written record from near the time of the alleged miracle-worker. For Jesus we have 4 (5) written sources near his time, 1st century, whereas for all the others there is no such evidence. Though for the Asclepius cult there are some 4th-century temple inscriptions which are probably close to the reported miracle events. These though are not about any historical person Asclepius, but about priests 1000 years after Asclepius practicing the religious rituals instituted over many centuries and performed in the name of Asclepius. These are the best example of reported miracle healing practices "parallel" to the case of Jesus in about 30 AD.
.000 - 1.000 "batting average" ranking and name of miracle cult/miracle worker
.950 -------------------- Jesus Christ 30-33 AD
.300 -------------------- Asclepius Cult 400-300 BC (or -100+ AD)
.280 -------------------- Delphic Oracle
.250 -------------------- St. Francis of Assisi
.250 -------------------- Pythagoras c. 570-495 BC
.240 -------------------- Nostradamus
.230 -------------------- Prophets Elijah/Elisha 9th century BC
.220 -------------------- Sai Baba 20th century
.210 -------------------- Rasputin, Russian Revolution "Mad Monk"
.200 -------------------- Hanina ben Dosa 1st century AD
.190 -------------------- St. Genevieve 5th century
.180 -------------------- Honi the Circle-Drawer 2nd century BC
.170 -------------------- Edgar Cayce 20th century
.160 -------------------- Apollonius of Tyana* 1st century AD
.150 -------------------- Joseph Smith 19th century
.130 -------------------- Emperor Vespasian (one miracle about 69 AD)
.130 -------------------- Serapis, Egyptian god
.120 -------------------- Isis, Egyptian goddess
*No reported miracles until about 220 AD
There are 4 more names added here: Pythagoras, Hanina ben Dosa, Honi the Circle-Drawer, and Emperor Vespasian.
As usual there are poor sources for them, though probably something happened with Vespasian performing a "miracle" healing ritual for 2 worshipers of the god Serapis. Tacitus and Suetonius both report this. Vespasian was arguably the most famous and powerful person in the world at that time, so of course it's easy for such a popular celebrity to become an object of rumor and myth and legend, and of religious fanatics seeking him out to perform the prescribed Serapis ritual for them.
90% of the Pythagoras alleged miracles are reported several centuries later, mostly by Porphyry and Iamblichus (2nd & 3rd century AD). There is no written record less than 100 years after him attributing miracle power to him. But apparently Aristotle mentioned him and called him a "wonder-worker," so this is a slight amount of evidence, dating about 150 years later than Pythagoras -- at best one source 150 years later. The legends must originate from something true, i.e., some unusual talent or intellect which he showed, and over many centuries this got exaggerated to make him into a miracle legend. His widespread early legend can be explained partly by his long public career -- he started a school in 530 BC, so his reputation as a wise sage must have been strong by then, making his public career at least 35 years -- and also by his very wide travels, which spread his reputation across many countries and cultures.
So if there were some early "miracle" legends about him (nothing in any early writings), this is easily explained by his long career and widespread travels and wide reputation, plus of course his unique intellect and charisma.
The only source for Hanina ben Dosa is the Talmud, about 300+ years later than this 1st-century rabbi miracle-healer lived. The much later stories of him are probably a reaction to the Jesus miracle-worker stories dating from the 1st century.
The earliest source for Honi the Circle-Drawer is Josephus writing 150 years later, who said Honi was able to cause rain to end a drought.
So, this is the best that is offered by those claiming there have been other reported miracle-workers "parallel" to Jesus. For modern times there might be some claimed cases reported in the mass media, Internet, etc., where billions of hoaxes run rampant, but these modern examples are equally as much refuted by other modern sources reporting that these are hoaxes or frauds, etc., so that modern cases are generally discredited. By contrast there are no 1st- or 2nd-century sources refuting the Jesus miracles. Perhaps by around 200 AD we begin to see some claims that he did tricks or was a magician.
Anyone having other examples -- "Jesus parallels" -- to add to the above list are invited to post your revised version of the above Listing/Ranking. But you should post a quote from the written source which is your evidence. Unwillingness to quote from the sources close to the claimed miracle is an indication that the example is not serious. Of course the .000 - 1.000 "batting average" number is very subjective, but has some legitimacy as an attempt to estimate the degree of evidence there is for each case.
Actually this listing is ridiculed, because no one can find any examples (serious Jesus "parallel" miracle-workers), and so the only counter-argument is to condemn such a listing/ranking as pointless. But this just proves the point that it's based on the known facts, or evidence, which cannot be refuted.
The more we look at the facts, minus the prejudice, it becomes more obvious that Jesus of Galilee, about 30 AD, is the only documented evidence-based miracle-worker of the ancient world, and there are no others -- "parallels etc. -- which come close. And yet there is an obsession, even among scholars like Bart Ehrman etc., to insist that he is just one more of many reputed ancient miracle-workers who abound throughout the ancient world, and of whom Jesus is just one more typical example. This dishonesty is so obvious, screaming in our ear, contradicting the facts, and yet it's repeated again and again and again in most of academia today, and in documentaries and of course by "mythicists" and other popular gurus on YouTube and other platforms.
Please, anyone, find those "Jesus parallel" miracle-workers and give the sources for them, the quotes from the ancient writings. Why is it that every one we investigate suddenly vanishes -- POOF! gone! -- as soon as we check the facts?
If there are truly "parallel" miracle-workers alongside Jesus, they have to be compared in terms of the probability, or the degree of evidence we have, based on the written record from near the time of the alleged miracle-worker. For Jesus we have 4 (5) written sources near his time, 1st century, whereas for all the others there is no such evidence. Though for the Asclepius cult there are some 4th-century temple inscriptions which are probably close to the reported miracle events. These though are not about any historical person Asclepius, but about priests 1000 years after Asclepius practicing the religious rituals instituted over many centuries and performed in the name of Asclepius. These are the best example of reported miracle healing practices "parallel" to the case of Jesus in about 30 AD.
.000 - 1.000 "batting average" ranking and name of miracle cult/miracle worker
.950 -------------------- Jesus Christ 30-33 AD
.300 -------------------- Asclepius Cult 400-300 BC (or -100+ AD)
.280 -------------------- Delphic Oracle
.250 -------------------- St. Francis of Assisi
.250 -------------------- Pythagoras c. 570-495 BC
.240 -------------------- Nostradamus
.230 -------------------- Prophets Elijah/Elisha 9th century BC
.220 -------------------- Sai Baba 20th century
.210 -------------------- Rasputin, Russian Revolution "Mad Monk"
.200 -------------------- Hanina ben Dosa 1st century AD
.190 -------------------- St. Genevieve 5th century
.180 -------------------- Honi the Circle-Drawer 2nd century BC
.170 -------------------- Edgar Cayce 20th century
.160 -------------------- Apollonius of Tyana* 1st century AD
.150 -------------------- Joseph Smith 19th century
.130 -------------------- Emperor Vespasian (one miracle about 69 AD)
.130 -------------------- Serapis, Egyptian god
.120 -------------------- Isis, Egyptian goddess
*No reported miracles until about 220 AD
There are 4 more names added here: Pythagoras, Hanina ben Dosa, Honi the Circle-Drawer, and Emperor Vespasian.
As usual there are poor sources for them, though probably something happened with Vespasian performing a "miracle" healing ritual for 2 worshipers of the god Serapis. Tacitus and Suetonius both report this. Vespasian was arguably the most famous and powerful person in the world at that time, so of course it's easy for such a popular celebrity to become an object of rumor and myth and legend, and of religious fanatics seeking him out to perform the prescribed Serapis ritual for them.
90% of the Pythagoras alleged miracles are reported several centuries later, mostly by Porphyry and Iamblichus (2nd & 3rd century AD). There is no written record less than 100 years after him attributing miracle power to him. But apparently Aristotle mentioned him and called him a "wonder-worker," so this is a slight amount of evidence, dating about 150 years later than Pythagoras -- at best one source 150 years later. The legends must originate from something true, i.e., some unusual talent or intellect which he showed, and over many centuries this got exaggerated to make him into a miracle legend. His widespread early legend can be explained partly by his long public career -- he started a school in 530 BC, so his reputation as a wise sage must have been strong by then, making his public career at least 35 years -- and also by his very wide travels, which spread his reputation across many countries and cultures.
So if there were some early "miracle" legends about him (nothing in any early writings), this is easily explained by his long career and widespread travels and wide reputation, plus of course his unique intellect and charisma.
The only source for Hanina ben Dosa is the Talmud, about 300+ years later than this 1st-century rabbi miracle-healer lived. The much later stories of him are probably a reaction to the Jesus miracle-worker stories dating from the 1st century.
The earliest source for Honi the Circle-Drawer is Josephus writing 150 years later, who said Honi was able to cause rain to end a drought.
So, this is the best that is offered by those claiming there have been other reported miracle-workers "parallel" to Jesus. For modern times there might be some claimed cases reported in the mass media, Internet, etc., where billions of hoaxes run rampant, but these modern examples are equally as much refuted by other modern sources reporting that these are hoaxes or frauds, etc., so that modern cases are generally discredited. By contrast there are no 1st- or 2nd-century sources refuting the Jesus miracles. Perhaps by around 200 AD we begin to see some claims that he did tricks or was a magician.
Anyone having other examples -- "Jesus parallels" -- to add to the above list are invited to post your revised version of the above Listing/Ranking. But you should post a quote from the written source which is your evidence. Unwillingness to quote from the sources close to the claimed miracle is an indication that the example is not serious. Of course the .000 - 1.000 "batting average" number is very subjective, but has some legitimacy as an attempt to estimate the degree of evidence there is for each case.
Actually this listing is ridiculed, because no one can find any examples (serious Jesus "parallel" miracle-workers), and so the only counter-argument is to condemn such a listing/ranking as pointless. But this just proves the point that it's based on the known facts, or evidence, which cannot be refuted.
The more we look at the facts, minus the prejudice, it becomes more obvious that Jesus of Galilee, about 30 AD, is the only documented evidence-based miracle-worker of the ancient world, and there are no others -- "parallels etc. -- which come close. And yet there is an obsession, even among scholars like Bart Ehrman etc., to insist that he is just one more of many reputed ancient miracle-workers who abound throughout the ancient world, and of whom Jesus is just one more typical example. This dishonesty is so obvious, screaming in our ear, contradicting the facts, and yet it's repeated again and again and again in most of academia today, and in documentaries and of course by "mythicists" and other popular gurus on YouTube and other platforms.
Please, anyone, find those "Jesus parallel" miracle-workers and give the sources for them, the quotes from the ancient writings. Why is it that every one we investigate suddenly vanishes -- POOF! gone! -- as soon as we check the facts?
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
One theory I he heard was Jesus may nave been associated with the Essenes, an apocalyptic Jewish cult. Commiserate Messianic.
There was something about their use of the word virgin colloquially that could fit the Mary 'virgin' birth story origin.
en.wikipedia.org
There was something about their use of the word virgin colloquially that could fit the Mary 'virgin' birth story origin.
Essenes - Wikipedia
Lumpenproletariat
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Is the Essene Teacher of Righteousness
a Parallel to Jesus? --- No?
Aw shucks!
There's a lot here about the similarities between Jesus and Qumran's Teacher of Righteousness. It should be added that some scholars, like Robert Eisenman, see James the Just as being a more appropriate parallel to the Qumran Teacher, or even identify this Teacher as actually being James the Just in the New Testament.
But most important is the conspicuous difference between this Teacher and Jesus in the Gospels: the Teacher of Righteousness, however wonderful and heroic he was, and however much he suffered as a martyr, is never depicted as a miracle-worker, performing any miracle acts.
That fact sets Jesus apart from this Essene character and from all the others one can name as being some kind of Jesus predecessor. You see the above listing of all the similarities, making it seem like they might be the same, or one a carbon copy of the other. And yet the most conspicuous feature of Jesus in the Gospels, popping up again and again, on page after page, is his miracle acts, which are unlike anything else we can find in all the ancient literature. And our author Max Dimont has to completely ignore this, telling us so much the 2 figures have in common, while leaving out the one feature about Jesus which sticks out the most, far beyond any other.
There is no parallel to this in anything we find in all the ancient literature, in all the earlier culture and religious traditions. There's nothing else like this in all the vast library of ancient literature, Jewish or pagan.
Is there some way to hold a contest or challenge, offer of reward or something, to anyone who can find another example of this in all the ancient literature or artifacts which have come down to us? to anyone who can find a Jesus parallel in all of the vast ancient sources, up to 50 or 100 AD? any other example of a reported miracle-worker who is described in the sources as performing miracle acts such as we see Jesus described in the 1st-century writings?
Why does there seem to be no other case of this? Why only one in all the volumes and volumes and tons of ancient sources which now have been found, and continue to be found? It seems that no one can give an answer to this.
a Parallel to Jesus? --- No?
Aw shucks!
This topic deserves a longer Wall of Text than this. Here's a quote from Jews, God, and History by Max Dimont:One theory I heard was Jesus may nave been associated with the Essenes, an apocalyptic Jewish cult. Commiserate Messianic.
There was something about their use of the word virgin colloquially that could fit the Mary 'virgin' birth story origin.
Essenes - Wikipedia
There's a lot here about the similarities between Jesus and Qumran's Teacher of Righteousness. It should be added that some scholars, like Robert Eisenman, see James the Just as being a more appropriate parallel to the Qumran Teacher, or even identify this Teacher as actually being James the Just in the New Testament.
But most important is the conspicuous difference between this Teacher and Jesus in the Gospels: the Teacher of Righteousness, however wonderful and heroic he was, and however much he suffered as a martyr, is never depicted as a miracle-worker, performing any miracle acts.
That fact sets Jesus apart from this Essene character and from all the others one can name as being some kind of Jesus predecessor. You see the above listing of all the similarities, making it seem like they might be the same, or one a carbon copy of the other. And yet the most conspicuous feature of Jesus in the Gospels, popping up again and again, on page after page, is his miracle acts, which are unlike anything else we can find in all the ancient literature. And our author Max Dimont has to completely ignore this, telling us so much the 2 figures have in common, while leaving out the one feature about Jesus which sticks out the most, far beyond any other.
There is no parallel to this in anything we find in all the ancient literature, in all the earlier culture and religious traditions. There's nothing else like this in all the vast library of ancient literature, Jewish or pagan.
Is there some way to hold a contest or challenge, offer of reward or something, to anyone who can find another example of this in all the ancient literature or artifacts which have come down to us? to anyone who can find a Jesus parallel in all of the vast ancient sources, up to 50 or 100 AD? any other example of a reported miracle-worker who is described in the sources as performing miracle acts such as we see Jesus described in the 1st-century writings?
Why does there seem to be no other case of this? Why only one in all the volumes and volumes and tons of ancient sources which now have been found, and continue to be found? It seems that no one can give an answer to this.