Shadowy Man
Contributor
I don't deny that religion is a powerful motivator. But I believe that in many, if not most (if not all) cases, it is being applied post hoc to pre-existing socio-cultural biases and prejudices.
-
Features
How are various religions and cultures coexisting so relatively well in the Americas and much of Europe?
- Thread starter ryan
- Start date
ryan
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2010
- Messages
- 4,668
- Location
- In a McDonalds in the q space
- Basic Beliefs
- a little of everything
Well, I can only tell you from my own experience and many others that I know who had similar experiences that the fear of god is real and is the strongest motivator that I have ever known.
Keith&Co.
Contributor
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2006
- Messages
- 22,444
- Location
- Far Western Mass
- Gender
- Here.
- Basic Beliefs
- I'm here...
That's not exactly a rebuttal to Shadowy Man's point.
From what i've seen, ryan, you're far more afraid of death than afraid of God. That's pretty basic to human nature. You dress this fear up in religious terms because if there is a God, that gives you a chance to have some sort of control. You hope to get on God's good side, so that you have nothing to fear from Death. Not oblivion, not Hell, not Biloxi.
ryan
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2010
- Messages
- 4,668
- Location
- In a McDonalds in the q space
- Basic Beliefs
- a little of everything
The only reason why I am more afraid of death with no god than death with god is because I know that no god is more likely. But, if I had a choice between hell and no god, I would much much much rather take my chances with no god. Religiously speaking, I probably would not make it into heaven as I understand the Bible. Christians that think they understand what Jesus wants would be in for a terrible surprise if they knew what I know.
In the end, I chose to take my chances with hell. Now I am trying to control death instead of hoping for a good afterlife. I also don't want to ignore what death may mean with no god. I am carefully advancing towards my goal.
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
There's lots of space, good laws regarding equality to include religious acceptance, mandatory education, opportunity if you're willing to work, and it's pretty tough to smuggle in RPGs. Government is also pretty much in the open and there is a legacy of law. Laws and jails matter, but mostly the laws.
braces_for_impact
Veteran Member
I just don't buy it. Over and over the perpetrators of suicide bombings tell us explicitly why they are blowing us and each other up, and it's for religious reasons. Read Bin Laden's letter to the U.S. in the wake of 9/11. Religion is all over it. Read the Hamas charter. Read the claims of responsibility written by those that commit such acts. There are areas of low education and economic opportunity all over the world, yet we don't see suicide bombings wherever we see this. Lack of economic opportunity doesn't explain shooting a 15 year old girl in the head or throwing battery acid into little girl's faces. It doesn't explain sectarian violence. It doesn't explain why the 9/11 highjackers were mostly middle class, or how some leaders in these cabals are doctors, lawyers, etc. Bin Laden himself was wealthy. It doesn't explain people that leave from America and other wealthy countries to join in Jihad.
We, especially as liberals and atheists don't really, truthfully, understand what it's like to actually believe in paradise, Jihad and martyrdom of that type. I agree that there are other factors at play as well, but if we ignore this elephant in the room we miss opportunities to understand the reality of the situation and how best to fix the problems that are occurring. We're often quick enough to recognize dangerous Christian ideology as a motivating factor, say when someone shoots an abortion doctor. Why do we give a free pass to Islam?
braces_for_impact
Veteran Member
As far as the OP is concerned, I think there are several factors. The first and most important is that which was already mentioned: a secular government. Also, a strong government. Remember, Sadam Hussein kept the peace in Iraq before we got there, using brutality, fear and torture.
If it's due to religion there's basically nothing we can do about it. If it's due to economics we can solve it. Liberal logic: There's always a solution, evil always comes from bad economics. Therefore it must be economics, not religion.
braces_for_impact
Veteran Member
Nah. I think blanket statements like that are a giant non sequitur. I think a lot of it is an over the top knee jerk reaction to the that of racism, perhaps with some political correctness thrown in for good measure.
The American that blew himself up in Syria last week is another good example.
Me neither. Economic justification fits in well with US ideas about how people make decisions. It's an easy answer, but I'm not convinced it's entirely accurate.
That said, I don't think religion explains all of it either...
Sure, then read the US constitution. Look at a dollar bill. Listen to a state of the Union address. Follow the Hobby Lobby case. Religion is all over them too. That doesn't mean your own motives for everything are religious ones.
When people do extreme things it's for a cause. The cause is generally related to a bad guy doing something bad, whether it's Israel trying to clear out Palestinians from Palestine so they have the country themselves, through to the evil Obama trying to force his liberal values on healthcare on innocent american companies.
What religion does is allow people to justify their actions. Someone annoying you isn't grounds for killing them, or a supreme court challenge. Someone being morally evil can be, on religious grounds. So religion is invoked to justify precisely what wouldn't be easy to justify ordinarily, whether it's killing oneself, or denying employees healthcare. It helps moral justification of action.
Often religious references turn out to be references to moral values, ones which some atheists may even share. Not all, but some.
But the action itself isn't because of religion. Suicide bombers aren't blindly killing people they would ordinarily like - there are still perfectly understandable motives for the attack and for the target. They're using it as a justification of their means.
Sectarian violence is a world-wide thing, from the US experience with the Black Panthers and the KKK, to The violence in Northern Ireland between protestants and catholics, to the conflicts between tribes in Africa. These are conflicts about whether a community can resist outside influences from alien cultures, and the poorer you are, the more of a survival lifeline your community is.
Or indeed to indulge in sectarian violence in Western countries.
Or indeed, to Israel.
'Islam' is too vague. Most Muslims aren't involved in sectarian violence any more than most Christians are or most practicing Jews are. If you're serious about stopping violence then you have to identify what the important factors are. You may be right that there is a problem with certain kinds of religion. But unless you're willing to distinguish between different types of religion that may seem very similar from a distance, then claims for a link will simply fail on the facts.
dystopian
Veteran Member
People may say it's because we're secular democracies, but to a large part it's because everyone actually believes roughly the same thing. When America was colonized, the whole protestants vs catholics thing wasn't as important as just surviving and setting up shop, and once the colonists/country was more set-up, it was mostly protestants and the fires of the reformation had long since died down. The United States today just isn't religiously diverse enough to fuel any serious religious conflict; the overwhelming majority is Christian, with non-religious being the next biggest group. Those two aren't likely to wage war on each other in a secular democracy. The only other religion that represents more than 1% of the overall population is Judaism, and only barely. That's why the US doesn't experience any real religious strife: there's nobody there to fight it; at most you get the occasional individual, but there's not a large enough group of radicals to reinforce each other's beliefs and take up the sword for god and fight that *other* group of radicals.
In Europe, things are a little different, but the same basic principle holds true. Europe is much more religiously diverse; even within christianity itself. Islam makes up a much larger percentage of the overall population, while at the same time christianity is nowhere near as dominant as it is in the US. So in terms of religious demographics, it's much more fractured. As a result, friction between fundamentalist muslims and 'western society' is much more pronounced, although they still don't represent a big enough group for that to boil over into outright armed conflict, (and it can hardly be explained by just the demographics, there's a lot of complicated factors at play).
I think the fact that we're secular democracies helps ease off the pressure by (theoretically) giving everyone a voice and letting them participate in the process of government and society at large. But it's an added reason; not the main reason for why we're not all at each other's throats. I think that unfortunately it'd look quite a bit different if we'd have say an even mix of 33% christians, 33% muslims, and 33% hindus living in our democracies. Maybe not a full out civil war or anything quite so dire; but certainly we might see a lot more violent clashes between the radicals in each group.
Shadowy Man
Contributor
How about in a country like India? Are the Sunnis and Shias fighting each other there?
^^^ This 100%
As Keith&Co points out, even a secular government can't entirely eliminate religious sectarian fighting, but it does seem to put a huge restraint on how that fighting is carried out.
skepticalbip
Contributor
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2004
- Messages
- 7,304
- Basic Beliefs
- Everything we know is wrong (to some degree)
I dunno about that but there is a long and ongoing strife between the Muslems and Hindus in India.
fromderinside
Mazzie Daius
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2008
- Messages
- 15,945
- Basic Beliefs
- optimist
Hopelessness is a major driver of conflict. Removal from being able to compete is a negative effect of inequality. Providing opportunity counters drive to gain assets loss fostered by to much equality. Krugman. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/08/o...ty-is-a-drag.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=0
ryan
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2010
- Messages
- 4,668
- Location
- In a McDonalds in the q space
- Basic Beliefs
- a little of everything
What about Iran, North Korea, Iraq (prior to 2002) etc. These countries are/were relatively peaceful under oppression.
Yup. The real cause of such violence is somebody pouring money into it. Almost always it's an outside group and if it isn't it's a group with access to outside funds.
I think it happens here in the states a lot more than thought but it often goes unreported or is disguised as something else.
Take for example the Amish bishop who went to prison for attacking and then cutting off the beards of men he considered apostate.
Also, a Muslim man started a restaraunt where I live. It started off doing well but when locals found out he and his family were Muslim they stopped going. I heard it vocalized by many people that his being Muslim is why they wouldn't eat there and many people actually openly rejoiced when he closed down. If you put those same people on tv most would probably say that they just didn't like the food and it wasn't because he was Muslim.
I don't go around advertising to people I am Muslim lest people do things to me too.
Take for example the Amish bishop who went to prison for attacking and then cutting off the beards of men he considered apostate.
Also, a Muslim man started a restaraunt where I live. It started off doing well but when locals found out he and his family were Muslim they stopped going. I heard it vocalized by many people that his being Muslim is why they wouldn't eat there and many people actually openly rejoiced when he closed down. If you put those same people on tv most would probably say that they just didn't like the food and it wasn't because he was Muslim.
I don't go around advertising to people I am Muslim lest people do things to me too.
Mr. Pechtel said:
I believe you are correct. Didn't an FBI agent write a book about this very thing back in the late 80's where his thesis was that most terrorist groups and their top leaders were proxies for governments or well off individuals?
I believe you are correct. Didn't an FBI agent write a book about this very thing back in the late 80's where his thesis was that most terrorist groups and their top leaders were proxies for governments or well off individuals?