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How can Derek Chauvin expect a fair trial in Minneapolis?

...it's hard to think a fair trial can be held anywhere by anyone.

When I read this, I can’t help but hear that by “fair trial,” they mean an even (50%) probability of geting acquitted.

The defendant is not ever guaranteed that, especially when they commit their crime on video with the concomitant recorded questioning by co-workers whether he is doing something wrong.

The history of police trials where we were all SURE they would be convicted, and then weren’t, makes me uncertain if he will be convicted, but I feel certain he will get a fair trial where the jury will be able to watch exactly what he did and decide if he broke the law or not.
 
Quote Originally Posted by TomC View Post

...it's hard to think a fair trial can be held anywhere by anyone.
When I read this, I can’t help but hear that by “fair trial,” they mean an even (50%) probability of geting acquitted.

That's not what I meant. It's not what I said.

Does it bother you that you were that wrong interpreting what I actually posted?
At all?
Tom
 
The media has already so thoroughly poisoned the wells it's hard to think a fair trial can be held anywhere by anyone.
That opinion reflects more on the utterer that it does on the reality of the situation.

Feel free to explain why you think this is true.
You want me to explain why your handwaved opinion reflects more on you than it does about the reality of the situation? I don't think it is hard to think at all that Mr. Chauvin can receive a fair trial. A fair trial does not require 12 ignorant people to make a jury before the trial. It requires 12 fair-minded reasonable people to make up the jury.
 
Agreed but this method of restraining a non compliant suspect is used (or was used) by police forces all over the country. Similar tactics such as choke holds were also widely used. It’s the idiots at the top that need to be in the dock.

Link?

It was discussed on here back at the time. It used to be taught as a restraint tactic, but that has changed as they realized the danger.

Likewise, choke holds. Blood choke--safe and effective. Airway choke--dangerous and it takes a lot longer. And without enough skill it's hard to do the former and ensure you don't do the latter.
 
Quote Originally Posted by TomC View Post

...it's hard to think a fair trial can be held anywhere by anyone.
When I read this, I can’t help but hear that by “fair trial,” they mean an even (50%) probability of geting acquitted.

That's not what I meant. It's not what I said.

Does it bother you that you were that wrong interpreting what I actually posted?
At all?
Tom


By “they,” I intended to convey that I meant ALL of the people who appear to lament that he will not “get a fair trial.” And by “I can’t help but hear,” I intended to convey that I don’t know what they actually meant, but that’s the way it comes across, especially in the context of the other sentences that surround what these myriad people post.

So I acknowledge that I very well could be wrong about your intent. Knowing that I did not think to myself that I knew for sure what you specifically meant, then no, I am not bothered and I am relying on you to add clarity if you like.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the defendants in America have the right to waive jury trial, and leave it to the judge? If so, the venue shouldn't matter.

They can. The court has to agree. Usually not a good idea unless the crime is one that really stirs the emotions like crimes against children. Then you might want to take your chances with a judge rather than a bunch of moms and dads in the jury box.
 
When I read this, I can’t help but hear that by “fair trial,” they mean an even (50%) probability of geting acquitted.

Fair trial doesn't have any direct relationship with probability of acquittal.
I already explained why the trial in Minneapolis is unfair - you have a jury pool from a city that is a drum of nitroglycerin, poised to go off should they dare vote to acquit Chauvin.
How can there be a fair trial under those circumstances?

The history of police trials where we were all SURE they would be convicted, and then weren’t, makes me uncertain if he will be convicted, but I feel certain he will get a fair trial where the jury will be able to watch exactly what he did and decide if he broke the law or not.

What they are able to watch is irrelevant if it cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that what they are watching, and not Floyd swallowing drugs, is what killed him. ]

More relevant to this trial being a show trial: what evidence is presented is irrelevant if the jurors are in fear of the consequences for their city should they vote to acquit.
 
A few decades back, a friend of mine was on a jury trying a murder case in Bloomington. She lived an hour away. The news around the rather grisly crime had so dominated the local news they had to go aways away to find jury members who hadn't already been seriously tainted by media accounts.
Maybe something similar would work in Minneapolis.
Tom
 
I don't see the problem with denying him a change of venue. Let a jury in the location where the crime is alleged to occur decide his fate. The tapes went viral and pretty much anyone in the world that has wanted to has or had the ability to see them. IMO this cop's request for a change of venue, was nothing more than jury shopping. I'm glad the judge told him no.

A change in trial location seems to have worked out well for OJ Simpson so it was worth a try for Chauvin's defense.
 
The idiots at the top were not kneeling on necks.

What an asinine response, I never said they were. But the ones at the top are the ones that design the training and procedures for officers.

PD policy does not compel kneeling on necks.

I think in some departments it does, it is part of the officer training. Obviously Chauvin went beyond what was necessary but I believe that type of restraint is (or was) part of their training.

Talk about asinine: Minneapolis police officers were not COMPELLED to kneel on the necks of suspects.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the defendants in America have the right to waive jury trial, and leave it to the judge? If so, the venue shouldn't matter.

That's an interesting question. I'm not sure that defendants always have that option. Maybe so.
Nor am I sure that it would be to Chauvin's advantage. Finding a judge that hasn't got a political dog in that fight might be more difficult and complex than an impartial jury.

The media has already so thoroughly poisoned the wells it's hard to think a fair trial can be held anywhere by anyone.
Tom

A "fair trial" and "buying your shit" are not the same thing. A lot of defendants claim they can't get a fair trial when the core of their defense is, "Who are you going to believe? Me, or your lying eyes."
 
Fair trial doesn't have any direct relationship with probability of acquittal.

Then you have no reason to be upset. We don't know the probability of acquittal here. I don't; you don't. Period.


I already explained why the trial in Minneapolis is unfair - you have a jury pool from a city that is a drum of nitroglycerin, poised to go off should they dare vote to acquit Chauvin.

Do you honestly not see the preconceived bias you bring to this by using such a hysterical, well-poisoning hyperbole bomb to describe the jury pool? What if, instead, one were to see the jury pool as "an impartial group representative of (and pulled from) the very community in which the offense being tried occurred?" That's not as provocative, granted, but it's a lot more accurate.


You also kinda tell on yourself with your characterization of "should they dare vote to acquit Chauvin." You give the jury absolutely zero benefit of the doubt for carefully weighing the evidence presented to them and delivering a verdict based solely on that. In fact, they may very well "dare" to acquit Chauvin. They may very well "dare" to convict him. You act as if it's a foregone conclusion that Chauvin should be acquitted (and I think most of us get why that is) but that only by some miraculous extra-ordinary jury effort, in which they essentially "go against their instincts," could this result in acquittal. That simply isn't true.


What they are able to watch is irrelevant if it cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that what they are watching, and not Floyd swallowing drugs, is what killed him.

Yeah, I kinda think a video of Chauvin kneeing him in the airway for eight minutes might help with that. Is it honestly your contention that if Floyd had been laying face down the exact amount of time he was, but with the sole difference of not being touched by Chauvin or any of the other officers, he'd have died anyway? Show your work.

More relevant to this trial being a show trial: what evidence is presented is irrelevant if the jurors are in fear of the consequences for their city should they vote to acquit.

It's not a show trial in any sense of that phrase. And I think your insinuations that Chauvin is innocent BUT the jury will knowingly and intentionally convict, but only because they don't want those pitchfork-wielding Negro hordes to burn the city down on acquittal, is a fantasy. (Which, coincidentally(?) neatly echoes Trump's insinuations for YEARS that voter fraud was rampant, and if he DID lose, it was only due to mail-in ballots and rigged machines and [insert other break from reality here.])

Maybe, if Officer Chauvin didn't want to be judged in Minneapolis by Minnesotans, he should have been more careful to take Mr. Floyd into custody in Minneapoiis without killing him in Minneapolis. I suspect that you'd be saying exactly that if the roles were reversed, and a black Minneapolis Antifa activist had ended up causing the death of a white Minneapolis Police officer in some protest scuffle or whatever. If some snowflake lefty here asked, "how can De'Vante hope to expect a fair trail in Minneapolis," it wouldn't surprise me to hear you say some variant of, "Sorry, juries are impaneled in the locality of the offense. Them's the rules, and they're well known. Don't shit in your own back yard if you don't want to be judged by your neighbors."
 
More relevant to this trial being a show trial: what evidence is presented is irrelevant if the jurors are in fear of the consequences for their city should they vote to acquit.
For one thing, not all of the jurors live in Minneapolis (https://www.startribune.com/who-are-the-jurors-in-the-derek-chauvin-trial-for-the-killing-of-george-floyd-in-minneapolis/600037651/). And, of course, you have presented not one iota of evidence to support your hypothesis.

Whatever the verdict, there’s gonna be violence.
 
Whatever the verdict, there’s gonna be violence.

Yah, violence begets violence. Maybe less violent cops would be a good thing?
You know... not murdering suspected $20 counterfeit bill passers?
 
What an asinine response, I never said they were. But the ones at the top are the ones that design the training and procedures for officers.



I think in some departments it does, it is part of the officer training. Obviously Chauvin went beyond what was necessary but I believe that type of restraint is (or was) part of their training.

Talk about asinine: Minneapolis police officers were not COMPELLED to kneel on the necks of suspects.

Talk about it indeed, you are dedicated to asinine responses. I never said Chauvin was COMPELLED to kneel on Floyd's neck for ten minutes. However, kneeling on necks as a form of restraint on suspects resisting arrest is (or was) probably an acceptable tactic in the training procedures for MNPD. Giving such tactics to thugs in uniform such a Chauvin is reckless. Considering Chauvin's record, allowing Chauvin to wear a police uniform is reckless. So things shouldn't stop with Chauvin. The police chief should be next in the dock.
 
Derec said:
What they are able to watch is irrelevant if it cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that what they are watching, and not Floyd swallowing drugs, is what killed him.

Yeah, I kinda think a video of Chauvin kneeing him in the airway for eight minutes might help with that. Is it honestly your contention that if Floyd had been laying face down the exact amount of time he was, but with the sole difference of not being touched by Chauvin or any of the other officers, he'd have died anyway? Show your work.

“Show your work,”. This is a very good question.

Derec you (and a few others here) appear to be absolutely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that
  1. having someone kneel on your neck for 9 minutes in addition to two more people kneeling on other parts of your body, will not cause death.
  2. And equally convinced that Floyd would have died that day, at that time regardless of the presence of the police
  3. and that moreover, allowing faster medical care could not possibly have saved his life.



Can you please explain for us what evidence you believe establishes ALL THREE of these cliaims beyond a shaodow of a doubt such that, according to you, the only posible guilty verdict could stem from fear of post-acquittal violence? (I guess you could also show how you know these jurors will definitely be swayed by this threat of violence.)


I am genuinely curious what actual evidence convinces you, already, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that 1,2 and 3 are all true.
 
Whatever the verdict, there’s gonna be violence.

Yah, violence begets violence. Maybe less violent cops would be a good thing?
You know... not murdering suspected $20 counterfeit bill passers?

Doesn’t surprise that you approve of destroying small businesses.

LOL, this is a comically clumsy attempt to shift the conversation.
But apparently you also approve, based on your claim that there will be violence no matter what.
 
What an asinine response, I never said they were. But the ones at the top are the ones that design the training and procedures for officers.



I think in some departments it does, it is part of the officer training. Obviously Chauvin went beyond what was necessary but I believe that type of restraint is (or was) part of their training.

Talk about asinine: Minneapolis police officers were not COMPELLED to kneel on the necks of suspects.

Talk about it indeed, you are dedicated to asinine responses. I never said Chauvin was COMPELLED to kneel on Floyd's neck for ten minutes. However, kneeling on necks as a form of restraint on suspects resisting arrest is (or was) probably an acceptable tactic in the training procedures for MNPD. Giving such tactics to thugs in uniform such a Chauvin is reckless. Considering Chauvin's record, allowing Chauvin to wear a police uniform is reckless. So things shouldn't stop with Chauvin. The police chief should be next in the dock.
Your response is driven by pure ignorance. The MnPD had banned the use of that procedure a couple of years ago. The police chief that was in charge has left. And getting rid of a police officer is a difficult business.
 
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