How many Republicans have had Enough?

[Metaphor]

Whether Trump actually leaves office in January 2021 is another question.

Is this something you actually believe to be a possibility?

 

[Deepak]

I don't think him being assisted out the door will be very hard, no matter the Repug silence.

Off camera, a lot of repubs want him gone, but don't want to be the one who takes him out. Once Bonespurs is a lame duck, he's going to be a pariah.

 

[ideologyhunter]

All the Republican noise right now about mail-in ballots leading to vote fraud is very suspicious -- remember that Trump has said he actually outpolled Hillary in the popular vote, because her totals came from, you guessed it, fraud. Who in the world thinks Trump would feel any moral compulsion at all to refrain from declaring an election loss to be a case of fraud that he won't acquiesce to? His remake of the DOJ would find its perfect culmination in a giant claim of fraud, with a stern-jowled Barr telling us that Trump will stay in office until a full investigation is done. Trump has shown that he will get away with whatever he can.

 

[Elixir]

Whether Trump actually leaves office in January 2021 is another question.

Is this something you actually believe to be a possibility?

Almost anything is a "possibility", including that Cheato leaves office quietly and willingly after suffering a narrow defeat at the ballot box.
I'd assign single digit percentage chances to that, even if a narrow defeat is 100% assumed.
I'd call it a slightly greater possibility that he leaves office quietly and willingly after suffering a rout at the ballot box, and trying to get the SCOTUS to intervene.
The most likely scenario that involves him leaving quietly and willingly would be if he resigns before inauguration day so Pence can pardon him.

He WILL (a near certainty) assert that the election results are not valid if he loses narrowly. (Bets accepted!)
If McConnell also loses his re-election, he will side with Trump and Barr in contesting the election results. That will very probably get bloody.

Does that answer your question?
I have one for you - do you really envision a scenario where Trump loses a close election, concedes, serves out his term and then faces the music for the crimes he has committed?
I call that a near-zero possibility.

Who in the world thinks Trump would feel any moral compulsion at all to refrain from declaring an election loss to be a case of fraud that he won't acquiesce to?

Uh ... Metaphor?
Just a guess.

 

[Bronzeage]

Can the president really pardon persons for crimes they have not yet been convicted of?

I've seen it done. Gerald Ford gave Richard Nixon a preemptive pardon.

 

[marc]

He WILL (a near certainty) assert that the election results are not valid if he loses narrowly. (Bets accepted!)

I say he will assert the results are not valid even if he looses in a landslide. Just wonder if Secret Service will have to drag him out on January 20

 

[Politesse]

No, he'll set up shop in Mar-a-Lago and continue ruling from there via his usual system of tweet-and-toadie, giving us a confusing situation with effectively two governments ruling from opposed capitols, not unlike the current situation a Venezuela. He already has the custom of referring to it as his "Winter White House". Men like Trump are much harder to remove than to install, he does not give a shit about the rules or conventions. There will be no concession speech. The natural pull of mortality on unhealthy old bodies is the best hope for democracy at this point.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Real Clear Politics today has Biden up by 5.9% over Orango the Clown. Of course it is early yet. 156 days. And we have no idea how bad the second covid-19 wave will be or how many more screw ups will make themselves felt when that happens. And the revolt against police brutality is going to drag on for some weeks. We just might see a lot of Trump fatigue by election day. Some analysts are predicting Trump will lose in a landslide. Maybe taking only 35% of the vote. I have not seen an election season so messy and out of control since 1968.

 

[Metaphor]

Almost anything is a "possibility", including that Cheato leaves office quietly and willingly after suffering a narrow defeat at the ballot box.
I'd assign single digit percentage chances to that, even if a narrow defeat is 100% assumed.
I'd call it a slightly greater possibility that he leaves office quietly and willingly after suffering a rout at the ballot box, and trying to get the SCOTUS to intervene.

If you are imagining a scenario where Trump stays in office, somehow forcibly, like a military coup, I find that to be extremely paranoid.

The most likely scenario that involves him leaving quietly and willingly would be if he resigns before inauguration day so Pence can pardon him.

How can a President pardon anybody who has not yet been tried?

He WILL (a near certainty) assert that the election results are not valid if he loses narrowly. (Bets accepted!)

He might, but so what? Trump is full of bluster.

If McConnell also loses his re-election, he will side with Trump and Barr in contesting the election results. That will very probably get bloody.

Does that answer your question?
I have one for you - do you really envision a scenario where Trump loses a close election, concedes, serves out his term and then faces the music for the crimes he has committed?
I call that a near-zero possibility.

I think if Trump loses the election, he will leave his office. Whether and what he is tried for after his office will be up to the new administration and Trump won't be able to do anything about it.

Who in the world thinks Trump would feel any moral compulsion at all to refrain from declaring an election loss to be a case of fraud that he won't acquiesce to?

Uh ... Metaphor?
Just a guess.

That Trump might declare a loss a fraud or a travesty or whatever I find entirely within the realm of possibility. That he does something to attempt to remain forcibly in office I find to be a distinctly fantasy-level paranoia. It might be good fodder for speculative fiction but it ain't reality.

 

[Metaphor]

No, he'll set up shop in Mar-a-Lago and continue ruling from there via his usual system of tweet-and-toadie, giving us a confusing situation with effectively two governments ruling from opposed capitols, not unlike the current situation a Venezuela. He already has the custom of referring to it as his "Winter White House". Men like Trump are much harder to remove than to install, he does not give a shit about the rules or conventions. There will be no concession speech. The natural pull of mortality on unhealthy old bodies is the best hope for democracy at this point.

What?

Two governments? Are you serious? Will Trump have his own House and Senate? Who will be following his commands? The military?

I'm sorry but this is an extremely paranoid phantasia.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No, he'll set up shop in Mar-a-Lago and continue ruling from there via his usual system of tweet-and-toadie, giving us a confusing situation with effectively two governments ruling from opposed capitols, not unlike the current situation a Venezuela. He already has the custom of referring to it as his "Winter White House". Men like Trump are much harder to remove than to install, he does not give a shit about the rules or conventions. There will be no concession speech. The natural pull of mortality on unhealthy old bodies is the best hope for democracy at this point.

What?

Two governments? Are you serious? Will Trump have his own House and Senate? Who will be following his commands? The military?

I'm sorry but this is an extremely paranoid phantasia.

You mean like the guy who is already making a case for the election being fraudulent?

IE, the President of the United States is saying, like you'd hear in a banana republic, the Democrats are trying to steal the election via mail-in ballots. It is like you have this filter that is capable of not seeing any of this stuff.

 

[Elixir]

How can a President pardon anybody who has not yet been tried?

Proclamation 4311
By it, Ford granted to Richard Nixon a full and unconditional pardon for any crimes that he might have committed.

I have one for you - do you really envision a scenario where Trump loses a close election, concedes, serves out his term and then faces the music for the crimes he has committed?
I call that a near-zero possibility.

I think if Trump loses the election, he will leave his office. Whether and what he is tried for after his office will be up to the new administration and Trump won't be able to do anything about it.

I hope you're right. It's pretty apparent to me that at this juncture Trump has no intention whatsoever of letting that happen, regardless of what he or his handlers have to instigate.

Who in the world thinks Trump would feel any moral compulsion at all to refrain from declaring an election loss to be a case of fraud that he won't acquiesce to?

That he does something to attempt to remain forcibly in office I find to be a distinctly fantasy-level paranoia. It might be good fodder for speculative fiction but it ain't reality.

Holy Hell, dude - what we have NOW is "distinctly fantasy-level".

 

[Metaphor]

No, he'll set up shop in Mar-a-Lago and continue ruling from there via his usual system of tweet-and-toadie, giving us a confusing situation with effectively two governments ruling from opposed capitols, not unlike the current situation a Venezuela. He already has the custom of referring to it as his "Winter White House". Men like Trump are much harder to remove than to install, he does not give a shit about the rules or conventions. There will be no concession speech. The natural pull of mortality on unhealthy old bodies is the best hope for democracy at this point.

What?

Two governments? Are you serious? Will Trump have his own House and Senate? Who will be following his commands? The military?

I'm sorry but this is an extremely paranoid phantasia.

You mean like the guy who is already making a case for the election being fraudulent?

IE, the President of the United States is saying, like you'd hear in a banana republic, the Democrats are trying to steal the election via mail-in ballots. It is like you have this filter that is capable of not seeing any of this stuff.

I'm well aware of President Trump's bluster.

The fact that it is bluster seems to have been forgotten.

The fact that Trump didn't really want to be President the first time around seems to have been forgotten (he wanted to win the Presidency, I reckon, but certainly not serve).

Even if Trump 'refuses to accept' (whatever that amounts to) a defeat, it doesn't matter. He won't be in the White House, he won't be President, he will be escorted out of office and there will be nothing he can do about it.

Honestly, are Americans so disdainful of their own institutions that you think a voted-out President can set himself up as unelected dictator?

 

[Metaphor]

Holy Hell, dude - what we have NOW is "distinctly fantasy-level".

There have been military coups in the past. Parliaments have been dissolved at gunpoint. Old orders (themselves sometimes undemocratic) have been swept aside.

But the idea that Trump will be able to do anything at all meaningful to stay in the Presidency if he is voted out seems to me an extraordinary denial of the stability and power of American institutions and conventions.

 

[Metaphor]

You mean like the guy who is already making a case for the election being fraudulent?

If Trump believes mail-in ballots are fraudulent or intended to enable fraud I'd say he's paranoid. But I don't know if he believes it. He just wants to set up a plausible reason for his defeat related to something that isn't his own failings.

I'm a keen board gamer. It's very easy to attribute a win to your own strategic ability and savvy. And it's easy to attribute a loss to other factors--the setup of the board was against me from the beginning, other players conspired against me, other players had an extraordinary run of good luck. People do it all the time.

The fact that Trump might be preparing for his own defeat seems to me completely in line with somebody who wants to save face, and not necessarily someone who plans to overturn it (how???)

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You mean like the guy who is already making a case for the election being fraudulent?

If Trump believes mail-in ballots are fraudulent or intended to enable fraud I'd say he's paranoid. But I don't know if he believes it. He just wants to set up a plausible reason for his defeat related to something that isn't his own failings.

So you are saying he is banana republic'ing it then. So why are you worried about a poster thinking Trump might try to steal an election when Trump is openly trashing our democracy?

The fact that Trump might be preparing for his own defeat seems to me completely in line with somebody who wants to save face, and not necessarily someone who plans to overturn it (how???)

Jebus Fucking Christ! He's not necessarily trying to steal an election, he is just trying the long con to save face.

 

[laughing dog]

Trump can say anything he wants after the election. But if he loses the electoral college vote, the only way he stays in office is with the connivance of the Secret Service, the Military, the Supreme Court and Congress. Which I think is pretty much impossible.

 

[Metaphor]

So you are saying he is banana republic'ing it then. So why are you worried about a poster thinking Trump might try to steal an election when Trump is openly trashing our democracy?

The fact that Trump might be preparing for his own defeat seems to me completely in line with somebody who wants to save face, and not necessarily someone who plans to overturn it (how???)

Jebus Fucking Christ! He's not necessarily trying to steal an election, he is just trying the long con to save face.

Yes. Saving face, especially for somebody with Trump's temperament, is exactly why I'd expect him to blame the world and not himself.

Edit: laughing dog below explains why Trump staying in office if he loses is beyond the realms of possibility.

I think it's unhealthy to engage in this phantasia that Trump is more powerful than two hundred years of institutions and convention, in the most powerful country in the world, at a time in history where that country is at the peak of its power.

Believing it could happen is more delusional than believing mail in ballots are a Democrat conspiracy.

 

[Politesse]

No, he'll set up shop in Mar-a-Lago and continue ruling from there via his usual system of tweet-and-toadie, giving us a confusing situation with effectively two governments ruling from opposed capitols, not unlike the current situation a Venezuela. He already has the custom of referring to it as his "Winter White House". Men like Trump are much harder to remove than to install, he does not give a shit about the rules or conventions. There will be no concession speech. The natural pull of mortality on unhealthy old bodies is the best hope for democracy at this point.

What?

Two governments? Are you serious? Will Trump have his own House and Senate? Who will be following his commands? The military?

I'm sorry but this is an extremely paranoid phantasia.

Trump doesn't generally go through the House and Senate now, why would he feel the need to later? He tweets, and his sycophants do things for him whether it's legal or not.

Honestly, are Americans so disdainful of their own institutions that you think a voted-out President can set himself up as unelected dictator?

Are you claiming that the American public is not, in fact, openly disdainful of the Legislature and the Supreme Court?

 

[J842P]

Trump can say anything he wants after the election. But if he loses the electoral college vote, the only way he stays in office is with the connivance of the Secret Service, the Military, the Supreme Court and Congress. Which I think is pretty much impossible.

I hope.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the military.