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How serious is the problem of undocumented immigration?

The last time the U.S. had open borders it resulted in a massive boom that made her the most powerful nation in the world.

Clearly it would be disastrous to let that happen again.

And that ardent faith comes from what, desperation to believe something for other reasons that its factual truth?

So you are saying that in your opinion the U.S. remains a post-colonial backwater Republic with little international significance?

Or are you saying that the mass immigration to the U.S. from Europe and elsewhere in the century or so before WWII didn't occur?
 
He is probably saying that we simply got lucky before WWII, in that the immigrants were from favorable genetic stock, having descended from merry Tudors and the like. If only we could convince more people with superior DNA to join us today.
 
And that ardent faith comes from what, desperation to believe something for other reasons that its factual truth?

So you are saying that in your opinion the U.S. remains a post-colonial backwater Republic with little international significance?

Or are you saying that the mass immigration to the U.S. from Europe and elsewhere in the century or so before WWII didn't occur?
Well, if we're opening up the "What does Max mean?" game, my guess is that he's probably challenging the cause-and-effect claim, what with the U.S. not becoming the most powerful nation in the world until around 1945, and the last time the U.S. had unlimited immigration being 1875.
 
Well, what is wrong with any variety of line-jumping? It takes a spot away from somebody willing to follow the rules and wait his turn to become a legal immigrant.

I can accept this as a legitimate problem, but that's only because I don't know what the rules are and how long a person must wait his turn. Desperation plays a huge part in what rules people are willing to break, and in those cases (which may be a few or a lot, I honestly don't know) I disagree that "The fact that he chose to line-jump and risk the wrath of the government instead of waiting his turn and going through the legal procedure is a red flag that he's probably not actually any time soon going to become productive enough to make taking him in worth the consequent costs to the locals." You prefaced that with "provided there's a rational immigration policy, the government would have given him permission." Do we have such a policy? Depends on who you ask, as this thread demonstrates.
A person must typically wait his turn for quite a long time; but then, the prevalence of line-jumping is a major cause of the long waits, so that's hardly a point in favor of undocumented immigration. And yes, people do line-jump out of desperation; but then, desperation is a major risk factor for becoming a person who costs more than he contributes since it's so often what leads people to commit other crimes besides line-jumping. And rationality of immigration policy isn't all-or-nothing. The fact that we give preference to skilled workers with a job offer in hand is highly rational; the fact that we give preferences to foreigners entering marriages of convenience is irrational. To whatever extent we have elements of rationality in our immigration policy, we can expect legal immigrants to be more beneficial to those already here than illegal immigrants. Legal immigrants are selected by the locals; illegal immigrants are self-selected; that's a recipe for legal immigrants being above average and illegal immigrants being average. That's a reason we should prefer legal immigrants. Do illegal immigrants provide any benefit at all compared to legal immigrants, to put on the other side of scale?

In any event, to whatever extent immigration policy is irrational, that's a reason to enact smarter rules about who can come, not a reason to let in everyone.
 
Well, what is wrong with any variety of line-jumping? It takes a spot away from somebody willing to follow the rules and wait his turn to become a legal immigrant.

But this assumes there is value in having lines at all. Presumably if you don't think illegal immigration causes problems you are for open borders (aka no lines).
True. Do you see value in having lines at all?
 
But this assumes there is value in having lines at all. Presumably if you don't think illegal immigration causes problems you are for open borders (aka no lines).
True. Do you see value in having lines at all?

Absent a welfare state? Not really. I would screen for criminals, I guess.

If we want to drain our own wealth to enrich people the billions of people around the world living in poverty why make them move here? We can just send them a check.
 
True. Do you see value in having lines at all?

Absent a welfare state? Not really. I would screen for criminals, I guess.
Hmm.

1. Do you see value in having a welfare state?

2. If you see value in having a welfare state, do you see value in having lines and a welfare state, compared to having a welfare state but no lines?

3. If you don't see value in having a welfare state, do you have a strategy in mind for getting rid of the welfare state?

4. If you have no strategy for getting rid of the welfare state, see question 2.

5. If you have a strategy for getting rid of the welfare state, do you also have a strategy for keeping the welfare state from being reestablished by all the people who would decide to come here because they don't have to wait in line, and their descendants?

6. Assuming you can get rid of lines without the welfare state coming back, do you also have a strategy to get rid of lines and prevent all the people who would decide to come here because they don't have to wait in line from establishing a state religion?
 
It's probably somewhere around a -3. If someone wants to work and live here, they can't not participate in our economy, consume our services, do jobs, pay rent and taxes, buy food, etc. and as a bonus they can't get welfare. Then they have kids who do all those same things, but are American. It strengthens demand within the economy and balances the workforce. The only people I see with any complaint regarding immigration are the ultra-nationalists, and the problems they cite result from casting the immigrants out into insular and segregated communities.

^^^ That
 
The last time the U.S. had open borders it resulted in a massive boom that made her the most powerful nation in the world.

Clearly it would be disastrous to let that happen again.
The first time the Americas had open borders is was disastrous to the inhabitants.
 
The last time the U.S. had open borders it resulted in a massive boom that made her the most powerful nation in the world.

Clearly it would be disastrous to let that happen again.
The first time the Americas had open borders is was disastrous to the inhabitants.

How was it disastrous? The rich people and large corporations you worship were able to hire people for far less money. Not only did this make rich people richer, but since most of these employments were off the books, said rich people were able to almost completely avoid all those tiresome employment laws conservatives and libertarians spend so much time complaining about.

So rich people get richer at the expense of others, and lots of regulations weren't followed. If we accepted rightist ideology at face value, not enforcing immigration laws should be a good thing. So why would right wingnuts complain....

Oh.

That's right.

Since the right wing propaganda outlets have been convincing conservatives and libertarians to vote for policies harmful to themselves, they needed a scapegoat so that the Fair And BalancedTM voter didn't accidentally blame right wing economic policies for the way their lives turned out.

I don't know what's more remarkable: the strategy or the fact that it worked.

The funny part is that now they need votes from Hispanics, and can't get them. They did such a good job of stoking the fires of hate in brainwashing the rightist hordes that now the rightist hordes won't stop shouting all the nonsense they've been fed for decades now.
 
How was it disastrous? The rich people and large corporations you worship were able to hire people for far less money.
Save your strawmaning for other posters. I'm consistently against neocon economic policies. I'm consistently against corporations. Its was disastrous to the native americans since they didn't repel European immigrants.
 
How was it disastrous? The rich people and large corporations you worship were able to hire people for far less money.
Save your strawmaning for other posters. I'm consistently against neocon economic policies. I'm consistently against corporations. Its was disastrous to the native americans since they didn't repel European immigrants.

Are you for lower taxes?

Are you for deregulation?

If you're for any of those things, then it wasn't a strawman. You're just in denial or confused about the point of your favored policies.
 
I'm not for any of those things. The only issues I believe I agree with repubs on are guns. I wouldn't even say I agree with them on immigration because I think big business that hire them should be severely punished. And punishing corporations is somethings republicans are loath to do, a trait they share with democrats.
 
How was it disastrous? The rich people and large corporations you worship were able to hire people for far less money.
Save your strawmaning for other posters. I'm consistently against neocon economic policies. I'm consistently against corporations. Its was disastrous to the native americans since they didn't repel European immigrants.

Do you really think that smallpox and influenza would kill a majority of modern Americans if immigration controls were removed? Or that the immigrants would be better armed then the current inhabitants, and engage in massacres? (it seems more likely to be the other way around). Or that the immigrants would bring with them an agricultural and industrial revolution that would radically alter land use and the way of life to which you are accustomed?

Modern immigration into developed nations brings more benefits than downsides.
 
I don't mean to ask how widespread the problem is, but how severe the effect is. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being California's ban on free plastic bags and 10 being corruption in all offices of political power, how big of a deal should we make about illegal immigration, and why?

I've often said we don't have an illegal immigration problem...we have an illegal employment problem.

Whether we have open borders or build a 100 foot high fence between the US and Mexico, we will always have people arriving here willing to do work and employers willing to skirt the law in order to hire them. Collectively, the business community spends hundreds of millions of dollars every year to keep this underground economy going. With that sort of money available, it isn't just people willing to walk across a significant stretch of desert to get here to do the jobs, but all the ancillary jobs that pop up as a result...from fake ID to identity theft to coyotes to lobbyists from the Chamber of Commerce hitting up the Corporation Commission.

Thanks to the political pressure created from the need to keep such a large and lucrative enterprise going, we wind up spending even more time and money trying to "crack down" on the people who are earning a few dollars an hour from this industry rather than the people who are driving it.

Not so long ago in my state (the ever so slightly crazy Arizona) we passed an "employer sanctions" law. This was prior to the more famous SB1070, but while you may have heard of the latter you can be excused if you didn't hear of the former because it was never enforced. Our famous (or infamous if you like) Sheriff Joe made a show (as he often does) of raiding businesses suspected of hiring illegal immigrants.

To almost nobody's surprise, he managed to find illegal immigrants working at - for example - a well known grocery chain that caters to Hispanic Americans. And while "America's Toughest Sheriff" got his photo op with illegals in zip-ties, you know what he didn't get?

A single person who was in charge.

Nobody that actually hired the illegal immigrants was ever arrested.

Hiring someone illegally is every bit as much of a crime as crossing the border without permission, but the number of businesses and/or business owners that have been shut down, fined, arrested, and charged with the crime of hiring an illegal immigrant is for all intents and purposes almost exactly zero.


If you feel illegal immigration is a problem, then in order to solve that problem you have to first address illegal employment. In order to do that you have to take on the businesses that depend upon having 10-12 million illegal workers here and available to fill jobs. Good luck with that.
 
Absent a welfare state? Not really. I would screen for criminals, I guess.
Hmm.

1. Do you see value in having a welfare state?

2. If you see value in having a welfare state, do you see value in having lines and a welfare state, compared to having a welfare state but no lines?

3. If you don't see value in having a welfare state, do you have a strategy in mind for getting rid of the welfare state?

4. If you have no strategy for getting rid of the welfare state, see question 2.

5. If you have a strategy for getting rid of the welfare state, do you also have a strategy for keeping the welfare state from being reestablished by all the people who would decide to come here because they don't have to wait in line, and their descendants?

6. Assuming you can get rid of lines without the welfare state coming back, do you also have a strategy to get rid of lines and prevent all the people who would decide to come here because they don't have to wait in line from establishing a state religion?

I think we can accept there will be some sort of welfare state, but there are more possibilities than those of which you have dreamt of. You could for example limit the access of immigrants to the welfare state. You could take steps to ensure the benefits paid are not greater than the living standards of places where immigrants come from.
 
If there is nothing wrong with illegal immigration how can it be wrong to hire illegal immigrants?

Don't we want these people to be hired?
 
If there is nothing wrong with illegal immigration how can it be wrong to hire illegal immigrants?

If we want to stop the trade in illegal drugs, do we go after the users? Or do we target the dealers?

Or if you want to stop counterfeiters, do you go after the people who are passing on the bills, or the outfit producing them?


If you are opposed to illegal immigration, then wouldn't it be prudent to do something about the industries that are paying the immigrants to come here?
 
If the vast majority of your fellow Americans, Max, feel so strongly about rejecting children of all ages coming from hellholes in South America, seeking refuge in this nation, let me suggest that it is time for your country to show its real face rather than exhibiting on Ellis Island :...
The vast majority of those "fellow" Americans have strong, and at times conflicted, feelings about what to do with Obama's pied piper call for millions of citizens of Latin America to assail the Republic's borders, as they do about the Honduran and Mexican governments that promoted and eased transport to the US borders to make it our problem.

I wonder what the vast majority to Mexicans feel, if they thought the US could have turned them back or how Canadians might feel if like Mexico we cynically passed them forward to Canada? Why you choose selective criticism of US citizens who seek to impose serious border control with merit based immigration, as have many "progressive" countries, remains curious. How, one wonders, is it that the billions of children in the hell holes of Africa or Asia not embraced by the citizens of France, Germany, the UK, or Italy. And how about Canada, Australia, or New Zealand?

Finally, I have no difficulty in considering the New Colossus as reflective of an honored historical experience, just as I do for other inscriptions and monuments. But such sentiments were appropriate for a different time and purpose, one that even at the time they were expressed was beginning to fray.

America was born in revolution, both as a confirmation of a new people and as a bold promise of liberty and republican self rule - it loudly denounced the old world caste and demanded the severing of roots to the blood feuds and clans of Europe. It though of itself as a "City on a Hill" a promise to all men who sought freedom. The theme of America prior to the turn of the century was not complicated, America was a new land (with a wilderness 'to tame') populated by a "new race of men", a "new compound", with an ideological mission - anyone willing to leave clans behind, to shed old identity, to become reborn into Americans (defined as anyone who believed in liberty, Republicanism, and the Constitution) were welcome to join and seek their own fortune.

There were, of course, some good and not so good reasons to encourage immigration. The most important, in the 19th century, was the settlement of the West (everything beyond Appalachia). Millions of people came, turning prairie into plowed fields and ranches, and river intersections into towns and cities. Into the 20th century there was a general consensus among those who supported such immigration: America promises only liberty and opportunity to those willing to embrace its values and civic religion. It was not enough to come without expectations of a publicly funded welfare system. One was also expected to 'be American' to embrace liberty and self-rule as the very meaning of being an American.

And until the closing of the frontier in 1890, it made some sense. “The frontier,” wrote Frederick Jackson Turner, “promoted the formation of a composite nationality.… In the crucible of the frontier the immigrants were Americanized, liberated, and fused into a mixed race, English in neither nationality nor characteristics.” In the crucible of the cities too assimilation proceeded apace. Even “the Irish immigrant’s son,” Bryce reported in 1888, “is an American citizen for all other purposes, even if he retain, which he seldom does, the hereditary Anglophobia.”

That, of course, began to change in the early 20th century. Americans did not assimilate quite as fast as they had, as people's from Southern and Eastern Europe, and Russian Jews, filled urban centers. The new polyglot immigration, two decades of labor violence, organized crime, and its white ethnic clannishness fueled backlash movements, as well as movements to expedite assimilation by offering immigrants special education in language, citizenship, and American history. It even worried immigration supporters, such as Woodrow Wilson, who lectured the newly naturalized “You cannot become thorough Americans ,” he told them, “if you think of yourselves in groups. America does not consist of groups. A man who thinks of himself as belonging to a particular national group in America has not yet become an American.” “We can have no ‘fifty-fifty’ allegiance in this country,” Theodore Roosevelt said two years later. “Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.

Then, as we know the US wisely clamped down on immigration. And until 1965, it was a settled issue. The country was 150,000,000. We didn't need immigration that repeated the painful experience of the turn of the century. We didn't need people who go on the dole, get subsided medical care, turn our farmland into apartment complexes, congest our freeways, and who will create an forever unhappy and violent underclass. We didn't need 310,000,000.

The country has already more than doubled in 50 years, and it is not in the interests of our children or grand children to live in an America that has doubled again in the next 50 years.
 
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