• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

It should come as no surprise that American fascists, white supremacists, and neo-Nazis applaud Putin these days. They did openly at the white supremacist conference that Marjorie Taylor Greene addressed. The moderator asked the audience to give Putin a hand, and they did. Why would they do that if Putin was calling the people he was attacking fascists and Nazis? We all know why. Of course, she later denied that she knew the organizer or had any idea of what it was all about. She just wanted to address a large audience of young people. Donald Trump would probably call that a genius remark. :rolleyes:

Marjorie Taylor Greene addresses white supremacist conference ahead of CPAC

 
US, other countries to disconnect some Russian banks from SWIFT

The White House announced further sanctions on Russia Saturday evening.

The U.S., along with the European Commission, France, Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom and Canada, are disconnecting some Russian banks from the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication (SWIFT) banking network and are “imposing restrictive measures that will prevent the Russian Central Bank from deploying its international reserves in ways that undermine the impact of our sanctions," the White House said.

“This will ensure that these banks are disconnected from the international financial system and harm their ability to operate globally,” the White House said in a statement.
 
article said:
Ejecting Russia from the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication (SWIFT) network could cripple Russia’s ability to trade with most of the world and deal a heavy blow to its economy.

Unfortunately, the pain would not be spread evenly. Some NATO members would be significantly hurt, others, not so much. Hence, paralysis.
At some point though, the pain caused by failure to eliminate Putin will exceed the pain caused by kicking him off the SWIFT network, even though removing Russia from SWIFT would make it difficult (impossible) for European creditors to get money back from Russian debtors and banks.

Well, The US, UK and top EU allies have just decided to cut Russia off of SWIFT. See Huffington Post for details. And are going after the oligarch's and Putin's elites. If Pootie thought the US and friends were weak and easily cowed, wrong again.
 
article said:
Ejecting Russia from the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication (SWIFT) network could cripple Russia’s ability to trade with most of the world and deal a heavy blow to its economy.

Unfortunately, the pain would not be spread evenly. Some NATO members would be significantly hurt, others, not so much. Hence, paralysis.
At some point though, the pain caused by failure to eliminate Putin will exceed the pain caused by kicking him off the SWIFT network, even though removing Russia from SWIFT would make it difficult (impossible) for European creditors to get money back from Russian debtors and banks.

Well, The US, UK and top EU allies have just decided to cut Russia off of SWIFT. See Huffington Post for details. And are going after the oligarch's and Putin's elites. If Pootie thought the US and friends were weak and easily cowed, wrong again.
It is better than nothing but only some Russian banks are cut off. A more meaningful action would be for the U.S. and E.U. to stop importing Russian oil and gas. That constitutes the lion's share of Russia's income so our buying their oil is how they are financing their military operations.
 
====================
:staffwarn: STAFF NOTICE
===================
  • This is a contentious issue that involves members' national pride, fear, and a host of different viewpoints.
  • The posts have had some unacceptable personal attacks and reactions, and these have become more frequent as tensions rise.
  • The staff is closing this thread for 24 hours to give posters a chance to cool off, remember why they post here (meaningful discussion) and take their anger and insults elsewhere.
  • Please remember that a heated topic does not mean the TOU is suspended - indeed, it is needed more than ever.
  • See you in 24 hours - with meaningful dialogue and respect for the community.
=========================
 
It's interesting to speculate which country Russia will attack next assuming that Ukraine eventually falls. And it could be Poland. There seems to be a stiff hatred of Poland in Russia as well. Seems like it will most likely be a non-Nato country. The world has pretty much set as strong sanctions on Russia that we can. Taking Russia off swift was awesome. Even China is considering sanctions. Not sure what additional sanctions could be added. But all the countries at risk of Russian invasion, need to have far more stingers and hellfire anti tank weapons. Far more. If their technical advantage can be eliminated, eventually the Russians will get tired of dying and will return home.
 
If their technical advantage can be eliminated, eventually the Russians will get tired of dying and will return home.

Seems like the Ukranian people are going to make this a whole lot more painful for Russian forces than Pootey anticipated.
He is probably not having a good day today.

Even China is considering sanctions.

Chinese State Banks Restrict financing for Russian Commodities

It's quickly turning into Pootey vs The World (including the Russian people, bless 'em).
How long before his expansionist chest pounding becomes nothing more than a self preservation campaign?
 
If their technical advantage can be eliminated, eventually the Russians will get tired of dying and will return home.

Seems like the Ukranian people are going to make this a whole lot more painful for Russian forces than Pootey anticipated.
He is probably not having a good day today.

Even China is considering sanctions.

Chinese State Banks Restrict financing for Russian Commodities

It's quickly turning into Pootey vs The World (including the Russian people, bless 'em).
How long before his expansionist chest pounding becomes nothing more than a self preservation campaign?
Good post. Yes, I really think that China is the key to trying to stop Russian imperialism. I think that Putin dramatically misunderstood China. Yes, China is expansionist also (Taiwan). However, China also is very probusiness and economic power. Russia offers gas station duties, cyber warriors and unpredictability. The west offers China far more. Actually, Russia goes on and on about how evil the "west is". The reality of it is that Putin has galvanized most of the world against Russia. It's not just the west anymore. People want peace.
 
Modern wars are not so easy to quickly and substantially resolve. I think that even if he "wins", Putin will find that Ukraine is his Afghanistan or Vietnam, not his Belgium. The cost of occupying it will not leave a lot of resources left for further imperial ambitions.

I hope.
 
It is heartening to see the long-suffering Ukrainian people, under the yoke of a Nazi dictatorship installed after the U.S. and NATO invaded Ukraine, strewing roses at the boot heels of their brave Russian liberators.

Oh, wait … those aren’t roses, they’re Molotov cocktails.

Joking aside, it is true that the U.S. supported a coup in 2014 against Ukraine’s pro-Russian president, and there were some elements in that coup with neo-Nazi leanings. However, all countries have their Nazis; in Russia, they currently occupy the Kremlin.

Also, Chris Hedges has a good article today in Salon about what he characterizes the giant mistake of expanding NATO east after the fall of the Soviet Union. He makes the quite valid point that this expansion was not done out of fear of an enfeebled Russia purged of Communism and its captive states, but out of the desire of the military-industrial complex for continued profits. And selling arms to the former Communist bloc, which had to reconfigure their militaries to meet NATO specifications, was a profit bonanza.

Of course the end of the Cold War could have produced a huge peace dividend that could have been spent on vital domestic needs in the West, particularly the U.S., which alone among Western industrialized nations lacks universal health care, but it was not to be, since both of our major parties are under the control of our own oligarchs.

None of this, of course, justifies the Russian attack on Ukraine.

As stated, Poland and other NATO nations need have no fear of a Russian attack unless Putin has lost his mind, and if he has, I firmly believe the Russian military would step in and relieve him of duty. There is plenty of dissent in Russia right now, including at high echelons of government, against Putin’s dirty war. Reports are circulating that he is furious over the bogged-down invasion, evidently having expected a cake walk. Such are the delusions of a self-isolated strongman who listens only to lackeys and yes men who tell him what he wants to hear. Perhaps he will meet the same end as Gaddafi and Ceausescu.

And as a matter of fact, I recall reading an article a couple of years ago, allegedly based on inside info from the upper echelons of the Kremlin, that KKKomrade Putin specifically fears meeting Gaddafi’s gruesome fate. It‘s not too far-fetched to imagine the Russian people one day overrunning Putin’s huge golden palace with gilded eagles that he erected for himself using money stolen from the Russian people.
 
I saw coward Romney praise thr bravery of the Ukrainians. Meanwhile Putin uses the n-word... no the other. Has he lost his fucking mind? Nothing would peanut butter China to America’s jelly than threatening the use of nuclear weapons.
 
He’s not going to move on a NATO member unless he is insane. In any case, let‘s see if he can finish his odious work in Ukraine first. I’m betting not.
I’m done predicting Putin’s rationality. I didn’t really think he would invade Ukraine at all, that to do so would be insane. It is. But he did it.

I wouldn’t think that he has the general support of his own military to invade Poland. He’s got to know it will mean war with the entirety of Europe and the United States. Same with the Baltic states. But now he’s put his nuclear forces on high alert. Maybe he thinks he can intimidate the West enough. Threaten nuclear war and see if he can seize the Baltic States by breaking them away from NATO. The Baltic states are like a salient into Russia, and aside from Poland’s small border with Kaliningrad, are the only NATO members to border Russia. He could cut them off from the rest of NATO in a conventional battle relatively easily. It would be difficult for NATO to resupply the area there. He could politically try to distance them from NATO, pointing out that Germany and the US have no strategic interest in the Baltic states worth fighting for. Many in the West would agree.

I think the best defense to this is for him to have a difficult time in Ukraine. 🇺🇦. Some reports indicate that they are putting up quite a fight. But who knows what’s really going on. The first casualty of war is truth. Mayor of Kharkiv reports that the Russians have been thrown back. I hope so. I am reminded of the Soviet Finnish War where Finland out smarted and drove the Soviet forces back, but eventually the Soviets used their overwhelming numbers to defeat them.
 
The Finnish analog occurred to me too. Pootey might level some cities, but if Ukrainians don’t suddenly give up, Ukraine will never be part of Russia any more than Finland is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SLD
The Finnish analog occurred to me too. Pootey might level some cities, but if Ukrainians don’t suddenly give up, Ukraine will never be part of Russia any more than Finland is.
Putin tried this ‘on the cheap’ and doesn’t remotely have enough of a force mobilized to push through to Kyyv without Ukrainians being very soft and giving up.

Now he is in a tough place because he won’t want to give up and global support of Ukraine has emboldened Ukraine. Putin is already close to a stalemate without serious escalation via jet bombings. And it appears the Russian people themselves are not lockstep in this operation.

Had Russia only isolated his new republics, he might have gotten away with it, but he and his military appeared to completely misread Ukraine and even Russia on this.
 
How long before his expansionist chest pounding becomes nothing more than a self preservation campaign?
Despots need places to hide. Putin the Pig and his cronies lost one of their hiding places in Ukraine. And Ukraine was just the last one to be lost of many lost hiding places that were available for decades. At some point you're gonna have your Waterloo. It might not be Ukraine for Putin the Pig but it's certainly coming. Xi probably told him to fuck off with his war ambitions.
 
Putin tried this ‘on the cheap’ and doesn’t remotely have enough of a force mobilized to push through to Kyyv without Ukrainians being very soft and giving up.

Now he is in a tough place because he won’t want to give up and global support of Ukraine has emboldened Ukraine. Putin is already close to a stalemate without serious escalation via jet bombings. And it appears the Russian people themselves are not lockstep in this operation.

Had Russia only isolated his new republics, he might have gotten away with it, but he and his military appeared to completely misread Ukraine and even Russia on this.
In all fairness, it's only been a few days.

For Putin, the ideal scenario would have been to take over Kyiv in the first few days and cut the head of the enemy. But he can probably keep up the offensive for at least a couple of weeks before the pressure back home becomes intolerable. He can even win without occupying Kyiv, as long as he can get all the other cities he eventually wants to annex: Kharkiv (already fallen based on some reports), Mariupol, Odessa, etc.

But who knows the mind of a madman?

We're now already past the "peak outrage" from international community. In the coming weeks and months, Putin will wrap up his campaign, force Ukraine into some sort of submission either via ceasefire or by capturing the government and killing Zelensky, and crank up his propaganda machine and counter-sanctions to sow divisions within Europe and US. I have no high hopes for the resolve of the western nations in face of this crazy person.
 
Back
Top Bottom