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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?
- Thread starter Harry Bosch
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SigmatheZeta
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- Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
I looked up what the atheist ex-PM of Greek Alexis Tsipras had to say about the war, and for once, I partly disagree with him. Only partly. He says he feels it was a mistake to send weapons into Ukraine, rather than humanitarian aid. I think that either of them is really inadequate, and I will tell you my reasoning as to why.
I believe that communications technology and the means of powering it is what would eventually emancipate Ukraine while preserving its infrastructure. It sounds to me like the stalling of the Russian advance upon Kyiv has been accomplished partly based on successful strategy tactics, and I suspect that civilian participation has played at least some role in that.
Due to probable energy problems, fully charged energy banks for phones would probably be welcome. I suspect that it might also be a good idea to try to get systems running there that could create private local networks that could be used for coordinating efforts within a radius of a couple of blocks.
Such technology would serve multiple purposes:
A) Ukrainians would need strong internal communications in order to fight back against propaganda. Unfortunately, the average person can be highly credulous, and sufficient saturation with persistent propaganda, without other inputs, actually CAN gas light the weaker minded members of a population into believing just about anything. However, strong internal communications could give even simple, everyday individuals opportunities to hear what is actually going on locally.
B) furthermore, they would be better able to coordinate another movement like the Euromaidan movement against any occupation government that the Russians installed, thereby putting the Russians back to square one: pre-Maidan, Russia basically controlled Ukraine through the strings they had attached to the jumping jacks that previously held sway in Ukraine, so they were independent in name only. Euromaidan was only possible due to the strong internal communications among the people of Ukraine.
C) it is also relevant that locals would need communications technology to coordinate a civilian resistance, which can be done fully without guns as long as you have a few talented chemists and a few experienced rugby players on your team but cannot be done without good internal communications. However, they would also need such technology and tactics in order to coordinate rescue operations. With the right technology, the people that DID have good knowledge about field medicine could communicate directly with people that were on the scene, miles away, to walk them through setting a broken leg, cleaning a wound, stopping blood flow, and so on.
D) fighting against loneliness would also help to preserve morale. People hiding in their basements from missiles raining down could eventually just lose hope if they did not have contact with family far away and overseas. As a zoophile, I have to confess that I have trouble finding people in my face-to-face life that I can talk to openly and honestly, and I depend heavily on access to the Internet for community and friendship with people that I can open my heart to. The people that I talk to online are not just anonymous strangers on the Internet to me, but we send gifts to each other every Christmas. We know each others' real names. Even though they live very far away, often in other countries, I love them like kin.
Therefore, I would contend that Alexis Tsipras is only partway right: weapons are only as inadequate, by themselves, as humanitarian aid. In the end, I think that the best service that has been done for Ukraine, so far, has been for Elon Musk to give them access to Starlink. Yes, I know that Musk is an imperfect person, but let's give the devil his due: it was pretty cool that he responded almost immediately to a request by Ukraine's leader. I don't ask people to be perfect, but I ask them to do the right thing when it counts the most.
Communications technology is what made Euromaidan possible. Communications technology is what people need in order to resist efforts at using destructive propaganda to divide them against themselves. Communications technology can save lives. Communications technology is how ordinary people can fight back. Communications technology helps fight back against the slow killer that is loneliness. Communications technology would round out the other efforts that have been made to help Ukraine in this hour.
I believe that communications technology and the means of powering it is what would eventually emancipate Ukraine while preserving its infrastructure. It sounds to me like the stalling of the Russian advance upon Kyiv has been accomplished partly based on successful strategy tactics, and I suspect that civilian participation has played at least some role in that.
Due to probable energy problems, fully charged energy banks for phones would probably be welcome. I suspect that it might also be a good idea to try to get systems running there that could create private local networks that could be used for coordinating efforts within a radius of a couple of blocks.
Such technology would serve multiple purposes:
A) Ukrainians would need strong internal communications in order to fight back against propaganda. Unfortunately, the average person can be highly credulous, and sufficient saturation with persistent propaganda, without other inputs, actually CAN gas light the weaker minded members of a population into believing just about anything. However, strong internal communications could give even simple, everyday individuals opportunities to hear what is actually going on locally.
B) furthermore, they would be better able to coordinate another movement like the Euromaidan movement against any occupation government that the Russians installed, thereby putting the Russians back to square one: pre-Maidan, Russia basically controlled Ukraine through the strings they had attached to the jumping jacks that previously held sway in Ukraine, so they were independent in name only. Euromaidan was only possible due to the strong internal communications among the people of Ukraine.
C) it is also relevant that locals would need communications technology to coordinate a civilian resistance, which can be done fully without guns as long as you have a few talented chemists and a few experienced rugby players on your team but cannot be done without good internal communications. However, they would also need such technology and tactics in order to coordinate rescue operations. With the right technology, the people that DID have good knowledge about field medicine could communicate directly with people that were on the scene, miles away, to walk them through setting a broken leg, cleaning a wound, stopping blood flow, and so on.
D) fighting against loneliness would also help to preserve morale. People hiding in their basements from missiles raining down could eventually just lose hope if they did not have contact with family far away and overseas. As a zoophile, I have to confess that I have trouble finding people in my face-to-face life that I can talk to openly and honestly, and I depend heavily on access to the Internet for community and friendship with people that I can open my heart to. The people that I talk to online are not just anonymous strangers on the Internet to me, but we send gifts to each other every Christmas. We know each others' real names. Even though they live very far away, often in other countries, I love them like kin.
Therefore, I would contend that Alexis Tsipras is only partway right: weapons are only as inadequate, by themselves, as humanitarian aid. In the end, I think that the best service that has been done for Ukraine, so far, has been for Elon Musk to give them access to Starlink. Yes, I know that Musk is an imperfect person, but let's give the devil his due: it was pretty cool that he responded almost immediately to a request by Ukraine's leader. I don't ask people to be perfect, but I ask them to do the right thing when it counts the most.
Communications technology is what made Euromaidan possible. Communications technology is what people need in order to resist efforts at using destructive propaganda to divide them against themselves. Communications technology can save lives. Communications technology is how ordinary people can fight back. Communications technology helps fight back against the slow killer that is loneliness. Communications technology would round out the other efforts that have been made to help Ukraine in this hour.
Harry Bosch
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The below story is just so cute! Putin is upset and issued a statement that Russia's neighbors should not escalate tensions! There's no need for tensions. He has "no bad intensions towards our neighbors"!
Mad Vlad is earning his nickname! All of his neighbors are abandoning Russia for the west. Hungary, Moldova, Sweden, Finland and etc are all joining the west. US manufacturers are rushing stingers and Javelins to those countries. Great time to buy stock in company's making defensive weapons. Russian tanks won't have such easy passage in the future.
Mad Vlad is earning his nickname! All of his neighbors are abandoning Russia for the west. Hungary, Moldova, Sweden, Finland and etc are all joining the west. US manufacturers are rushing stingers and Javelins to those countries. Great time to buy stock in company's making defensive weapons. Russian tanks won't have such easy passage in the future.
TV and credit cards
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HORROR IN UKRAINE: “They’re Blowing Up Buildings With Children.”
We’re watching a holocaust,” stated former president Donald Trump.
www.israelnationalnews.com
Jimmy Higgins
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Ghost of Kyiv not as real as an actual ghost. It certainly seemed like a myth, seeing the number of Russian planes attacking Ukraine early on didn't seem to be enough for one guy to shot down a bunch.
Regarding Trump, does he know what the Holocaust is?
Regarding Trump, does he know what the Holocaust is?
Elixir
Made in America
“The numbers are far worse than what you’re seeing on television...This is a holocaust. This is a horrible thing that’s happening, you’re witnessing.”
-ElCheato
Do tell, you cockwomble.
How would you know anything that’s not on television?
-ElCheato
Do tell, you cockwomble.
How would you know anything that’s not on television?
Harry Bosch
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Holy cow! Did Donald Trump actually read a newspaper yesterday?!!HORROR IN UKRAINE: “They’re Blowing Up Buildings With Children.”
We’re watching a holocaust,” stated former president Donald Trump.
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I wonder if he's still getting security reports that he doesn't read.
Jimmy Higgins
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Probably just finished his last conversation with Putin.Holy cow! Did Donald Trump actually read a newspaper yesterday?!!HORROR IN UKRAINE: “They’re Blowing Up Buildings With Children.”
We’re watching a holocaust,” stated former president Donald Trump.
Amazing how this asshat goes from praising Putin to flat out condemnation of the attack.
Jimmy Higgins
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I pondered that, but I can't imagine he does. It was bad enough him leaking information to the Russians about Israeli spying operation in ISIS.
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Translation according to the thread:
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Politesse
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We never met a war we didn't like, that's for sure. Prostitution may have been the original profession, but arms manufacture will be the last, and we have invested heavily in it. Whoever wins, we walk away with the purse.
Jimmy Higgins
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Of course there are plenty of Nazis in Ukraine. One is more than plenty. Aren’t there Nazis everywhere? Or Nazi adjacent ideologies? The US has plenty of such. And some Russians really want Alaska back. Is Russia therefore entitled to invade the US?
Who has a better recent history with respect to even tolerance if Jews, Russia or Ukraine? I am pretty certain Zelensky has an answer to that question…
Copernicus
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Russia is cracking down hard now on press freedoms. The BBC and VOA websites have been blocked and BBC is now halting operations in Russia. The Russian government has now moved to shut down the few remaining online sources of news inside Russia, such as Meduza.com. As of now, they seem to be back up and running, but it probably won't last long. I would say that Russian media has pretty much returned to full censorship status. The Duma is currently in the throes of passing a new law that will officially outlaw what they term "fake news", i.e. anything that contradict the official government line.
This CNN report carries some interviews on the divide in opinion between Russians who completely buy the Kremlin line and (mainly younger) Russians who get more information from other sources such as the internet.
Barbos has better access to media outside of Russia than most Russians, but he, like many older Russians, seems to have a lot of ways to rationalize what he sees as somehow "fake news". That is what a woman in Russia tells the CNN reporter when she admits that she's heard about atrocities. It seems to be the same strategy that Donald Trump supporters use to dismiss bad news about his record and behavior. It's not surprising that people make stuff up, like attributing some of the reports to the Ukrainian "кастрюлеголовые". (Yes, that's a compound adjective form consisting of words for "pan" and "head".) Mockery is another way of explaining away the truth. But Russians in generally are no different from Americans about news that their government is doing something bad. They just don't want to believe it.
Russia blocks access to BBC and Voice of America websites
This CNN report carries some interviews on the divide in opinion between Russians who completely buy the Kremlin line and (mainly younger) Russians who get more information from other sources such as the internet.
'I know the truth': CNN asks Russians what they think about Putin's war
Barbos has better access to media outside of Russia than most Russians, but he, like many older Russians, seems to have a lot of ways to rationalize what he sees as somehow "fake news". That is what a woman in Russia tells the CNN reporter when she admits that she's heard about atrocities. It seems to be the same strategy that Donald Trump supporters use to dismiss bad news about his record and behavior. It's not surprising that people make stuff up, like attributing some of the reports to the Ukrainian "кастрюлеголовые". (Yes, that's a compound adjective form consisting of words for "pan" and "head".) Mockery is another way of explaining away the truth. But Russians in generally are no different from Americans about news that their government is doing something bad. They just don't want to believe it.
Elixir
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Hey, I’m an American, I see and hear what’s going on, I don’t want to believe it, but the truth is the truth whether I like it or not.
Apparently that’s not true for trumpsuckers and some Russians.
blastula
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Others don't even know there's a war.
Letter from St. Petersburg: Many Russians don't even know there's a war
Russian media is largely hewing to the government's line on the Ukraine conflict and many Russians remain in the dark about the true extent of the war.
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