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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

That sounds like a completely unsupported ideological desire, rather than a reason that anyone should take seriously.

About as realistic as a wholesale acceptance of nuclear enabling it to reach more than a fraction of its promise in the next 50 years.

Centralized power will always mean vulnerable nexuses, distributed generation reduces that exposure. Plus, FREEDUM!
Of course it’s less feasible in urban settings…
 
That sounds like a completely unsupported ideological desire, rather than a reason that anyone should take seriously.

About as realistic as a wholesale acceptance of nuclear enabling it to reach more than a fraction of its promise in the next 50 years.

Centralized power will always mean vulnerable nexuses, distributed generation reduces that exposure. Plus, FREEDUM!
Of course it’s less feasible in urban settings…
Urbanisation is the only path to sustainability. But as I said, let's not derail this derail.

ETA: It's notable that nobody suggests that we need stagecoaches as part of a diverse transportation mix.
 
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Biden expected to ban Russian energy imports today.
I've been against this because it's going to dramatically hurt our economy. But at this point, don't know what more the west can do to stop Russia. I'll say this, we should have a Manhattan like project to develop fusion power.



:p
 

Amid this escalation, experts can spin out an infinite number of branching scenarios on how this might end. But scores of war games conducted for the US and allied governments and my own experience as the US national intelligence officer for Europe suggest that if we boil it down, there are really only two paths toward ending the war: one, continued escalation, potentially across the nuclear threshold; the other, a bitter peace imposed on a defeated Ukraine that will be extremely hard for the United States and many European allies to swallow.
I think there’s another trajectory, and that is that the Russian leaders, other then Putin, decide to stop and refuse orders to escalate, especially anything nuclear. This would effectively remove Putin from power, if not outright kill him.

Putin isn’t Stalin, although he may want to be, and the rest of the leadership isn’t a complaint politburo either. This article makes it clear that there is considerable tension in the leadership ranks and that they may have agreed to go to war, but they appeared to do so reluctantly. Putin chastised his spy chief for his reluctance. There may be a growing movement that could topple him. Russia has not been one to leaders who launch unpopular wars that they don’t do well in.

 
Yeah, here's Putin winning friends and influencing people.

 
Yeah, here's Putin winning friends and influencing people.


Yeah, his own spy chief didn’t get the memo. This is the crack that could widen. His inner circle may not tolerate him if their military continues to take huge losses. Many are unhappy. Too many people weren’t really expecting this, or were dragged into this against their better judgment. They could turn on him. Anything less than total victory could mean a serious threat to him, and he’s obviously not going to get that total victory. He may though try to cling to power by just terror bombing Ukraine into submission for as long as he can.

I predict he will never really try to take any of the big cities. Mariupol still hasn’t fallen, he’s just going to use artillery. Same with Kharkiv and Kiev too. If he can do that, he will minimize his own casualties and keep up the appearances. But every day the Ukrainians simply hold out, the greater the chances that people defect. If Ukraine can hold out for several months, like until May or June (and that could get tough as food stocks dwindle), then the sanctions really begin to bite for his people.

That‘s why Europe has got to cut off further buying of oil or gas. I realize that’s not feasible, but frankly they’re slitting their own throats by buying oil form them. If Putin falls, then they can shift course.
 
The backup can also be energy storage or a better grid.
No, it can't; Grids don't provide backup, and energy storage (other than hydro which we already discussed) doesn't exist. You might as well say you could use fusion power as your backup.
I think perhaps "backup" was a misnomer. I meant only that solar and wind output is variable; you need an alternative for the times when sun isn't shining or there is no wind. Perhaps the term "reserve capacity" would be a better term. Building a grid that can provide electricity from father away helps (the reason being that even if you don't have hydro or nuclear, maybe your neighbor does), and while you're right that there is no large scale storage technology, it's not quite as far away as fusion.

Also the supply of nuclear fuel in the future is risky
Nope. It's extractable from seawater in limitless quantities for only a small increase in cost over current mining.
If you think energy storage and building better grids are future technologies, then so is this.

Lastly it's good to diversify in order to reduce risks of any particular type of energy.
Not really. There's an optimum solution; Diversity merely implies deliberately accepting a partly sub-optimal solution.

There are no risks worth mitigating that cannot be mitigated by having a large number of smaller reactor sites, rather than a small number of large ones.
Supply chain for the nuclear fuel is one such risk. Under current nuclear regime, only a small number of nuclear-powered countries are realistically able to provide the uranium. And if that supply chain is somehow compromised in a crisis, it doesn't matter whether you have small or large power plants.

Wind power is local and can keep running regardless of what rest of the world is doing.
 
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Yeah, his own spy chief didn’t get the memo. This is the crack that could widen. His inner circle may not tolerate him if their military continues to take huge losses. Many are unhappy. Too many people weren’t really expecting this, or were dragged into this against their better judgment. They could turn on him. Anything less than total victory could mean a serious threat to him, and he’s obviously not going to get that total victory. He may though try to cling to power by just terror bombing Ukraine into submission for as long as he can.

I predict he will never really try to take any of the big cities. Mariupol still hasn’t fallen, he’s just going to use artillery. Same with Kharkiv and Kiev too. If he can do that, he will minimize his own casualties and keep up the appearances. But every day the Ukrainians simply hold out, the greater the chances that people defect. If Ukraine can hold out for several months, like until May or June (and that could get tough as food stocks dwindle), then the sanctions really begin to bite for his people.

That‘s why Europe has got to cut off further buying of oil or gas. I realize that’s not feasible, but frankly they’re slitting their own throats by buying oil form them. If Putin falls, then they can shift course.
Putin is just going the same route that he did in Syria. There, the combined Russian and Syrian forces weren't able to take large urban centers, so they resorted to simply obliterating civilian targets. It didn't get the same attention in the West, because the targets were Muslims in the Middle East, but the technique is the same. In Ukraine, the civilian population rose up to resist the Russian occupiers, but they were expected to put up a token resistance and then submit. The next step is punishment--revenge for the rejection of the initial strategy.

The problem that Putin faces is that there is one obvious way out of this for the oligarchs, the top military brass, and security forces in Russia. Depose Putin and put all the blame on him for the disaster. That would not be all that hard to sell outside of Russia, and it would receive the support of a large number of people inside Russia. They could all then do what the Germans did and say that they had no idea and were just following orders. If Putin died during the coup, he wouldn't be around to make things messy for the victors, and the rest of the world would be happy to turn the page. There would be a large number of people left who were still loyal to Putin and the idea that he did nothing wrong or, at least, that wasn't "necessary". However, there is no way that everyone could end up pleased. So Putin must be looking over his shoulder a lot these days.
 
The talks between Lavrov and Ukraine's foreign minister have ended. As expected, there was no real negotiation, just a repetition of the Russian demand that Ukraine surrenders. I expect the assault on Kyiv to start any time now.

Lavrov even said that Russia hasn't attacked Ukraine. I'm sure that will ease the concerns of Russia's other neighbors, who are frantically arming themselves to avoid being the next country to be non-attacked. :rolleyes:
 
Lavrov is another Putin stooge, propagandist and Russian coward. If he doesn't tow the line he'll be poisoned, imprisoned, etc. Putinstan isn't exactly a nation founded on the rule of law and love of individual freedom.
 
The talks between Lavrov and Ukraine's foreign minister have ended. As expected, there was no real negotiation, just a repetition of the Russian demand that Ukraine surrenders. I expect the assault on Kyiv to start any time now.

Lavrov even said that Russia hasn't attacked Ukraine. I'm sure that will ease the concerns of Russia's other neighbors, who are frantically arming themselves to avoid being the next country to be non-attacked. :rolleyes:
Yes, not surprised. Please someone tell me that I'm wrong, but there is no chance of peace talks working today. For one, the Russians have zero credibility. They can't be trusted. Number 2, they aren't willing to compromise. So peace talks aren't going anywhere until there are far greater Russian military defeats and/or Putin gets pressure from his inner circle or the Russian military.
 
Sham negotiations. Russia is making demands it knows Ukraine cannot possibly accept, walks out claiming it tried to achieve a peaceful end to a war it says does not exist, and then continues to bomb the fuck out of Ukraine. Russia will succeed in annexing the country. Sheer quantity will overcome the lack of its military's quality, and not for the first time.
 
Is this the time to point out the crazy assertion that Ukraine wanted to invade others?
 
I think most Russians must be terribly ignorant of geography, and are convinced that their motherland is surrounded by bloodthirsty Ukrainian Nazis.
 
I think most Russians must be terribly ignorant of geography, and are convinced that their motherland is surrounded by bloodthirsty Ukrainian Nazis.
Russian Geography books might simply be dated to the 19th century, causing this level of confusion as to where the boundaries of Russia actually are.
 
Sham negotiations. Russia is making demands it knows Ukraine cannot possibly accept, walks out claiming it tried to achieve a peaceful end to a war it says does not exist, and then continues to bomb the fuck out of Ukraine. Russia will succeed in annexing the country. Sheer quantity will overcome the lack of its military's quality, and not for the first time.

Well, perhaps not. Russian ground forces total only about 400,000, of which only 280,000 are active duty and the rest are conscripts, which Putin says are not supposed to be used. Right now Putin has mobilized a significant fraction of that for the invasion, and he is bogged down. Ukraine can field more than that actually, although they are outgunned especially in air power. They hold significant advantages nonetheless. They are being armed with sophisticated anti armor weapons by the West. They can mobilize their entire country to fight against them. Urban warfare will negate a lot of air power and long range artillery, which is why you don’t see them taking Kharkiv or Mariupol despite several intense attacks. Plus Russia has to hold on to rear areas. The risk of an insurgency is very high. Just controlling the area takes a huge number of troops away from front line duties.

One estimate I read is that Putin will need to deploy over 340,000 troops to conquer and control Russia. That‘s 85% of their forces. That’s not sustainable. Frankly, I think that number is too low, but I also don’t think Putin will try to go much further west than Kyiv. He’ll probably want to only occupy the country east of the Dnieper. He could leave a rump country in the west, knowing that it will never join NATO.

But really that won’t work. For starters, an untouched Western Ukraine will be a platform for continuing the war. Thus he may be forced to either call up reserves and conscripts and cross the Dnieper in force to attempt a full scale occupation. This is something he said wouldn’t happen. Thus doing so would be tantamount to an admission of failure on his part.

Second, they don’t have near enough troops just to conquer the East right now. They can’t even take Kharkiv and have surrounded but not penetrated into Mariupol. That means they can’t free up these troops to attack Kiev. They may make gains, but each one comes at a greater and greater cost. Why hasn’t Odessa been
attacked yet? Simple: they can’t.

Third, Ukraine doesn’t have to win on the battlefield so much as they just have to hold out long enough for the Russians to say they’ve had enough. That could be a lot sooner than people think. Sanctions are going to make life very uncomfortable in Russia. But it will take some time. The US is also sanctioning any Chinese companies who do business with Russia, and that also should put significant pressure on Russia from their supposedly stalwart friend. China will sell Russia under the bus if they can’t wrap this up quickly.

What they are left with is the same strategy as they used in Grozny and Aleppo - namely terror bomb the cities into submission. But look at their experience in Grozny, where Chechen rebels, unsupplied by the West and with far fewer forces held back Russians for months and continued the fighting back and forth for about 6 years. Russian forces were far less so they could sustain the fight for far longer without too much opposition on the home front. Ukraine is far larger, and there are numerous Grozny’s to deal with.

This war will end with Putin’s downfall. It’s the only way. Putin will be the final casualty. His military will eventually revolt. Unfortunately it will take months before this happens, and in the meantime, tens of thousands are going to die.
 
SLD is an optimist.
I might be a bit but I also have 30 years of military experience and multiple combat deployments to Afghanistan. I’ve served at top headquarters and participated in very high level exercises and know the necessity of proper military planning and war gaming. I also attended a war college.

I also know a lot of military history. And have read a lot of analysis of this operation. And I even talk with friends in high places at the Pentagon. The Russians will fail unless they mobilize their entire forces and call up their reservists. They will need to cut off western resupply as well and that risks NATO involvement and means they have to go deep into eastern Ukraine where the terrain becomes a more serious factor.

They cannot even come close with only 190,000 troops. This is not Grozny nor Aleppo. They will fail.
 
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