How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

Why 3? Because you already know 2?
Clown Fuhrer and his western masters are losing.

That you are unable to is unfortunately not the least bit surprising.

So, who are the 2 experts you know already?
You are losing the war. Your propaganda just does not admit that because senile leader of the "free" World have congressional elections.
Your neocons have that much time to think about exit strategies
In fact, there are noticable changes in western media coverage already, which point toward Zelensky becoming toxic figure for your establishment.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Except Russia is running out of tanks, trained, competent troops, smart weapons, gasoline, and ammunition

LOL, OK, how can Russia run off gasoline?
And no. Russia does not run out of anything.It's Ukraine who ran out of troops. Yes, all their men with any professional training are either dead or captured.
They have to resort to catching men on beaches and send them to "war" without any training whatsoever.
Tanks? what tanks? Russia does not really use tanks that much.
It's artillery and drones.

Russia has had almost unsurmountable problems getting gasoline to their troops in Ukraine. Ukranians delight in blowing gasoline tanker trucks with drones an javeline rockets. Hundreds of Russian vehicles out of fuel and abandoned by Russian troops are now in Ukranian hands. Winter is coming and this is going to get worse as Russian soldiers stuck in their armored vehicles waste gasoline to keep from freezing to death. Recent estimates of Russian loses are 45,000 troops. 9,000 for Ukraine. A 5:1 kill ratio in favor of Ukraine. Young punk Russian kids, poorly trained, armed and lead. Cannon fodder. Target practice.Russian population is 3 times that of Ukraine. But a 5 to 1 kill ratio means Russia loses long term. This was how North Vietnam won. North Vietnam had 45 million citizens, America at most had 1 million troops in Vietnam. Wars of attrition. Always bad news.

 

[barbos]

Except Russia is running out of tanks, trained, competent troops, smart weapons, gasoline, and ammunition

LOL, OK, how can Russia run off gasoline?
And no. Russia does not run out of anything.It's Ukraine who ran out of troops. Yes, all their men with any professional training are either dead or captured.
They have to resort to catching men on beaches and send them to "war" without any training whatsoever.
Tanks? what tanks? Russia does not really use tanks that much.
It's artillery and drones.

Russia has had almost unsurmountable problems getting gasoline to their troops in Ukraine. Ukranians delight in blowing gasoline tanker trucks with drones an javeline rockets. Hundreds of Russian vehicles out of fuel and abandoned by Russian troops are now in Ukranian hands. Winter is coming and this is going to get worse as Russian soldiers stuck in their armored vehicles waste gasoline to keep from freezing to death. Recent estimates of Russian loses are 45,000 troops. 9,000 for Ukraine. A 5:1 kill ratio in favor of Ukraine. Young punk Russian kids, poorly trained, armed and lead. Cannon fodder. Target practice.Russian population is 3 times that of Ukraine. But a 5 to 1 kill ratio means Russia loses long term. This was how North Vietnam won. North Vietnam had 45 million citizens, America at most had 1 million troops in Vietnam. Wars of attrition. Always bad news.

Sure, keep drinking Kool-Aid.

 

[Patooka]

So, who are the 2 experts you know already?
You are losing the war. Your propaganda just does not admit that because senile leader of the "free" World have congressional elections.
Your neocons have that much time to think about exit strategies
In fact, there are noticable changes in western media coverage already, which point toward Zelensky becoming toxic figure for your establishment.

Let's be very clear:

I am not going to believe your assertion that "American military experts are on records saying that Russian military operation is extremely accurate and measured, unlike what you did in Iraq/Afghanistan/etc." simply because you say so. That you can't provide basic details like who these American military experts are, when they said and in what context makes me even more skeptical. If, "I heard a rumour", is all you've got, then you haven't got much.

But I suspect you already knew that, didn't you? This isn't the first, second or even tenth time in this thread alone you have been asked to present your receipts.

 

[Jayjay]

"Russia has little reason to keep going" Oleg, you sound like barbos did on page 1.

Might as well say "Germans have little incentive" ala 1930's.

It's all just bullshit Russian propaganda that they would ever stop or leave without getting their faces eaten.

What reason does it have to keep going? It’s got the eastern territory with its Russian majority, a land bridge to Crimea, and Crimea. Now it’s just wait out the clock.

Russia clearly wants the whole southern coast and to connect with Transnistria.

It has also not yet conquered the rest of Donetsk and Kharkiv Oblasts.

After that, maybe Zaporizhzhia/Dnipropetrovsk and the titanium mines there.

 

[Harry Bosch]

If heavy casualties, and 45,000 is a conservative estimate

15K is the real number.

Casualties includes wounded and captured. 45K is probably a low number. But the larger issue is your side getting out of this? At the end of day, the war will end at some point. The Orcs will get some land most likely. But what is the cost here for your side? Ukraine was weak and disjointed (50-50 pro Russia vs west). Now, it's nearly united to oppose Russia. And they are armed. You'll have a very upset neighbor armed to the teeth for the long term future. Pre war, NATO was pretty weak. They are united now and very compelled to stop Russia. Finland and Norway have joined NATO. Putler made a huge blunder attacking Ukraine that will haunt Russia for a generation.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Russia has the territory it wants and just has to sit it out. The West should signal that compromise is okay.

Russia is free to stop the military incursion into Ukraine whenever they want. They aren't being forced by Ukraine to be there.

You are saying that Ukraine should just compromise hand over the illegitimately invaded territory to Russia.

Ukrainian cannot expel Russia from the captured territory. Russia has little incentive to proceed further as it has what it wants. What is the point of more death?

So you are saying appease the invaders, you just want to pretend it isn’t appeasement,

That’s what I’m hearing, too.
There is no principle of sovereignty, just let the Russians have what they have now. It won’t embolden them at all.


But - didn’t Ukraine do exactly that with Crimea? And this happened. So how can you argue with a straight face that Russia would be appeased by this? And how can you argue with a straight face that ggiving the bully what he can take is a good solution?

Yeah, I suppose Crimea is a bit more of a recent, spot on, and better reflection of that point than 1930s Germany.

I'm not certain Oleg's goal here. He doesn't give a damn about people dying from needless war, so it is peculiar that he raises this as an objection to Ukraine not stopping the madness. It is such a disingenuous motive for a disingenuous argument.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

"Russia has little reason to keep going" Oleg, you sound like barbos did on page 1.

Might as well say "Germans have little incentive" ala 1930's.

It's all just bullshit Russian propaganda that they would ever stop or leave without getting their faces eaten.

What reason does it have to keep going? It’s got the eastern territory with its Russian majority, a land bridge to Crimea, and Crimea. Now it’s just wait out the clock.

Yes, wait for the winter..... in Europe

Yeah, Russia really can't afford to not sell their gas to high paying European nations. It is a nice threat though and speaks to your collapsed sense of humane thought.

 

[Harry Bosch]

"Russia has little reason to keep going" Oleg, you sound like barbos did on page 1.

Might as well say "Germans have little incentive" ala 1930's.

It's all just bullshit Russian propaganda that they would ever stop or leave without getting their faces eaten.

What reason does it have to keep going? It’s got the eastern territory with its Russian majority, a land bridge to Crimea, and Crimea. Now it’s just wait out the clock.

Yes, wait for the winter..... in Europe

Yeah, Russia really can't afford to not sell their gas to high paying European nations. It is a nice threat though and speaks to your collapsed sense of humane thought.

Yep. Long term economic future will not be bright for Russia. The west needs to bankrupt Russia if we can. We need to keep pouring the arms into Ukraine and lift them up as much as we can. 8.24.22 is Ukrainian Independence day. It's predicted that Russia will rein down missiles from Belarus into Kyiv. Putler will do everything he can to kill as many civilians tomorrow as he can. It will be a bloody terrible day for a lot of Ukrainians tomorrow. Fuck Russia. But all this will just cement their Independence Day. They ain't going away!

 

[Jayjay]

Those NASAMS batteries would be handy right now. Too bad they're months away.

 

[Elixir]

There a simple reason the Russian Military can't defend against NATO. The western powers have spent 40 years preparing for the Russian Army that Russia would have been. They looked at the money being spent and assumed it was being spent on military power. After all, NATO knew what they would do with the money, so figured Russia was doing the same.

Unfortunately, most of the money went to super yachts and villas in France. It turns out, there wasn't enough left over to make a decent tank.

There are perils inherent in kleptocracy. Before Americans let that happen (more) here, we should learn from the example of the Russian disaster. Greed kills, and it is well on the way to killing Russia.

 

[Elixir]

Just thought it would be fun to have a little “memory lane” trip back to page 1, when barbos was sure Ukraine was worthless, and not wanted by Russia and Russia has no designs on invading and this was Obvious. The eastern sttrech, indeed, is worthless to Russia!!

I have no idea how "the west" should respond, because I can't understand what - if anything - Russia figures to gain by this.
My suspicion is that there is little interest in conquering and occupying Ukraine, and the whole charade is a distractive display of nationalism, by which Putin perhaps hopes to elevate his own domestic standing, which has reportedly been suffering of late.

Projecting again? No one in Russia considers it a great idea.

Putin does not need to invade anyone. All he needs is to start North Stream 2 and wait until all contracts with Ukrainian pipelines expire.
Ukraine and US, on the other hand, realize that they need some drastic shit to prevent that.

Your posts to Elixir don't make sense to me. Where is the projecting?

He is projecting when he suggests that It's Russia. It's Ukraine and their nazies who are desperate enough to start a war and play the victim and US is perfectly fine with that plan. After all it worked in Georgia, why not try again?

Ukraine is in deep economic shit. They need a war, not Russia.
Russia is doing fine, gas prices at all time highs, oil is too doing well.
And Ukraine is about to collapse on their own. Gas retail prices jumped 5x, Power stations shutdowns because of lack coal.
Well, there is a risk of Ukrainian Trump starting a war, that's bad.

Are you trying to say that Russia isn't amassing troops on the Ukrainian border?

I am saying that MSM forgot to inform you that Ukrainian Trump is doing the same.
And, unlike Russia, in doing so they are violating Minsk agreements.

Russian press discuss how much that supposedly leaked invasion plan looks like it was made up in Pentagon (military terms which are not used in Russia and other stuff)

That explains the est. 90,000 troop buildup on the Ukranian Border.

Yes, it actually explains it. Because Ukraine moved half on their of forces to the border with breakout republics. If US wants to start a war then Russia must be prepared.

ROFL the stuff your sources feed you about the USA are lies as well, and generally better crafted.
I was going to mention how Putin is probably afraid that Ukraine will invade Russia with US backing, to support Ukrainian imperial expansionist ambitions.
Glad I didn’t mention it

My sources? how are they mine? these are ukrainian sources, they don't really hide their intentions. And stop this crap about russian expansion. All Russia wants is for US stop paying scam around Russia to be a scam.
And Germany in particular agrees with that. The rest of the old EU agrees too, they are just less vocal about it.

The problem here is that it seems like Russia wants a war with Ukraine, for the express purposes of annexation of territory.

That's what MSM says, they are lying. Eastern Ukraine in particular is very unattractive piece of territory. There is only one reason for invading Ukraine - NATO expansion.
Putin informed NATO about that reason in 2008. You should know that by now.

Aww, poor Pootey! Spent so many of his (stolen) billions trying to keep Ukraine in his portfolio, and now the bad bad US wants to kick the poor humanitarian to the curb and let the Trumpy Ukranians ally themselves with the European aggressors who have been trying to invade Russia and annex it for its oil ever since Crimea volunteered to become part of Russia.

^^^
Your news sources have turned you into a laughingstock, barbos.
Putin's ambition to re-create the Soviet glory days has remained the one constant in his erratic behavior. You can dress it up with all kinds lies, you can cite corrupt American motives, real and imagined, but the fact of Russia's perennial aggression can't be magically disappeared by your whining.

Can't counter facts and resort to attacking the messenger?

If "the messenger" ever came up with actual facts that were relevant and in context, I probably wouldn't counter them since they would be facts. But your specious pro-Putin bullshit contains few facts, and those it does reference are warped beyond recognition by the bias forced upon you by your handlers.
Not worth addressing, when the overriding fact is that rationalizing Russia's expansionist ambitions are truly the sole focus of all the arguments you've been fed. All those whataboutisms and false fears of the mighty Ukranian Empire encroaching on Russian territory - it's all bullshit, no matter how many irrelevant facts (like Russian nukes in Cuba) you try to drag into it.

Tell your bosses they need to send you into battle better equipped than this! It will make for much better discussion.

I came with undeniable facts which refute your MSM "facts".
So stop your tiresome "Russian expansionism!" song.
Go and educate yourself.

Yup. Barbos’ history in this thread is one of epic foolishness, errors and lies (his, and/or those of others).
It mystifies me that anyone takes anything he continues to blather as anything more than the tantrums of a toddler.

 

[Elixir]

"Russia has little reason to keep going" Oleg, you sound like barbos did on page 1.

Might as well say "Germans have little incentive" ala 1930's.

It's all just bullshit Russian propaganda that they would ever stop or leave without getting their faces eaten.

What reason does it have to keep going? It’s got the eastern territory with its Russian majority, a land bridge to Crimea, and Crimea. Now it’s just wait out the clock.

I think you know.
Stopping now would betray the Imperial ambitions of Putler. He is almost certainly being told whatever he wants to hear, which is reflected in what Barbos parrots.
Uncle Vlad knows he’s not long for this world, and with reassurance from his “advisors” that he’s on the brink of immortality, there is zero chance of him stopping now, or ever, as long as he’s breathing.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Just thought it would be fun to have a little “memory lane” trip back to page 1, when barbos was sure Ukraine was worthless, and not wanted by Russia and Russia has no designs on invading and this was Obvious. The eastern sttrech, indeed, is worthless to Russia!!

I have no idea how "the west" should respond, because I can't understand what - if anything - Russia figures to gain by this.
My suspicion is that there is little interest in conquering and occupying Ukraine, and the whole charade is a distractive display of nationalism, by which Putin perhaps hopes to elevate his own domestic standing, which has reportedly been suffering of late.

Projecting again? No one in Russia considers it a great idea.

Putin does not need to invade anyone. All he needs is to start North Stream 2 and wait until all contracts with Ukrainian pipelines expire.
Ukraine and US, on the other hand, realize that they need some drastic shit to prevent that.

Your posts to Elixir don't make sense to me. Where is the projecting?

He is projecting when he suggests that It's Russia. It's Ukraine and their nazies who are desperate enough to start a war and play the victim and US is perfectly fine with that plan. After all it worked in Georgia, why not try again?

Ukraine is in deep economic shit. They need a war, not Russia.
Russia is doing fine, gas prices at all time highs, oil is too doing well.
And Ukraine is about to collapse on their own. Gas retail prices jumped 5x, Power stations shutdowns because of lack coal.
Well, there is a risk of Ukrainian Trump starting a war, that's bad.

Are you trying to say that Russia isn't amassing troops on the Ukrainian border?

I am saying that MSM forgot to inform you that Ukrainian Trump is doing the same.
And, unlike Russia, in doing so they are violating Minsk agreements.

Russian press discuss how much that supposedly leaked invasion plan looks like it was made up in Pentagon (military terms which are not used in Russia and other stuff)

That explains the est. 90,000 troop buildup on the Ukranian Border.

Yes, it actually explains it. Because Ukraine moved half on their of forces to the border with breakout republics. If US wants to start a war then Russia must be prepared.

ROFL the stuff your sources feed you about the USA are lies as well, and generally better crafted.
I was going to mention how Putin is probably afraid that Ukraine will invade Russia with US backing, to support Ukrainian imperial expansionist ambitions.
Glad I didn’t mention it

My sources? how are they mine? these are ukrainian sources, they don't really hide their intentions. And stop this crap about russian expansion. All Russia wants is for US stop paying scam around Russia to be a scam.
And Germany in particular agrees with that. The rest of the old EU agrees too, they are just less vocal about it.

The problem here is that it seems like Russia wants a war with Ukraine, for the express purposes of annexation of territory.

That's what MSM says, they are lying. Eastern Ukraine in particular is very unattractive piece of territory. There is only one reason for invading Ukraine - NATO expansion.
Putin informed NATO about that reason in 2008. You should know that by now.

Aww, poor Pootey! Spent so many of his (stolen) billions trying to keep Ukraine in his portfolio, and now the bad bad US wants to kick the poor humanitarian to the curb and let the Trumpy Ukranians ally themselves with the European aggressors who have been trying to invade Russia and annex it for its oil ever since Crimea volunteered to become part of Russia.

^^^
Your news sources have turned you into a laughingstock, barbos.
Putin's ambition to re-create the Soviet glory days has remained the one constant in his erratic behavior. You can dress it up with all kinds lies, you can cite corrupt American motives, real and imagined, but the fact of Russia's perennial aggression can't be magically disappeared by your whining.

Can't counter facts and resort to attacking the messenger?

If "the messenger" ever came up with actual facts that were relevant and in context, I probably wouldn't counter them since they would be facts. But your specious pro-Putin bullshit contains few facts, and those it does reference are warped beyond recognition by the bias forced upon you by your handlers.
Not worth addressing, when the overriding fact is that rationalizing Russia's expansionist ambitions are truly the sole focus of all the arguments you've been fed. All those whataboutisms and false fears of the mighty Ukranian Empire encroaching on Russian territory - it's all bullshit, no matter how many irrelevant facts (like Russian nukes in Cuba) you try to drag into it.

Tell your bosses they need to send you into battle better equipped than this! It will make for much better discussion.

I came with undeniable facts which refute your MSM "facts".
So stop your tiresome "Russian expansionism!" song.
Go and educate yourself.

Yup. Barbos’ history in this thread is one of epic foolishness, errors and lies (his, and/or those of others).
It mystifies me that anyone takes anything he continues to blather as anything more than the tantrums of a toddler.

I don't disagree with you at all. To me, the interesting part is how many people in Russia agree with Barbos, how many want peace? I think (my opinion) is that Barbos represents the majority in Russia. The peace-loving people who want a better future to have either fled or are keeping quiet. This means that Russia is going to keep going. They want all of Ukraine. So, our choice is to either help Ukraine try to survive; or standby and let the Russians commit the greatest crime of this century (by far).

 

[steve_bank]

We already knew this. An alleged ex Russian soldier posted criticism in Russia and fled.

I;d say there could be several suspects in the recent car bombing. Russian military and Russian organized crime. Profits for organized crime are probably down, and their actions internationally may be hinderd more than usual.


https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/22/euro...-russia-paratrooper-interview-intl/index.html

CNN)The Kremlin's justification for invading Ukraine "is a lie," a Russian paratrooper who previously publicly condemned his country's war in Ukraine has told CNN.

Two weeks ago, Pavel Filatyev spoke out against the conflict in a 141-page-long testimony posted to his VKontakte social media page, then fled Russia. He is the first serving member of the Russian military to publicly criticize the invasion of Ukraine and leave the country.

Now he tells CNN that his fellow troops as tired, hungry and disillusioned -- and that the Kremlin's war effort is "destroying peaceful lives."



"We understood that we were dragged into a serious conflict where we are simply destroying towns and not actually liberating anyone," Filatyev told CNN's Matthew Chance. CNN is not disclosing the location of the interview for the security of the interviewee.

"Many understood that we do not see the reason that our government is trying to explain to us. That all of it is a lie," he said. "We are just destroying peaceful lives. This fact immensely influenced our morale. That feeling that we are not doing anything good."

I watched a show on Tito and Yugoslavia. Tito tried to keep Yugoslavia independent of Russia and Stalin. Tito was making economic progress and Stalin demanded Yugoslavia join a Russian economic federation and do what it was told.

At one point Stal;in massed troops fr an invasion of Yugoslavia but was deterred by American aid. American geopolitics, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.


Putinism is Stalinism. The Stalin playbook applied to Ukraine.

 

[TV and credit cards]

“I know that Crimea is with Ukraine and is waiting for us to return. I want everyone to know that we will be back. When we return and correct everything that the occupiers did on our Ukrainian peninsula,” Zelenskyy said in his address.

“The whole world needs to win in the fight against Russian aggression to overcome terror and return predictability and security to our region in Europe. Therefore, it is necessary to free Crimea from the occupation; where aggression began, there it will end.”

Doesn't sound like anyone plans on negotiating away any part of their country anytime soon to me. I think Biden will have Z's back for awhile.

 

[ZiprHead]

Funny...

 

[TV and credit cards]

Jeez Louise. I cycle from Al Jazeera to AP on my reading list and what do you know:

As Russia’s war on Ukraine drags on, U.S. security assistance is shifting to a longer-term campaign that will likely keep more American military troops in Europe into the future, including imminent plans to announce an additional roughly $3 billion in aid to train and equip Ukrainian forces to fight for years to come, U.S. officials said.

Unlike most previous packages, the new funding is largely aimed at helping Ukraine secure its medium- to long-term defense posture, according to officials familiar with the matter.

In addition to providing longer-term assistance that Ukraine can use for potential future defense needs, the new package is intended to reassure Ukrainian officials that the United States intends to keep up its support, regardless of the day-to-day back and forth of the conflict, the officials said.

How do you like them apples?

 

[TV and credit cards]

Damn. Even Olaf is throwing down long term.

Germany to send €500 million in new weapons

Nope. No time soon.

Why don't you dick around with elections some more, Vlad. See what that gets you.

 

[laughing dog]

Once a war is started, it is extremely difficult for a leader, even a dictator like Putin, to just stop it. Vladimir Putin is not personally doing the fighting, nor is everyone involved in the fighting just there because he told them to go. People have lost loved ones as a result of the war, and they have invested a lot in defending it to those around them. You aren't going to tell those people that their loved ones died or suffered grievous life-altering injuries for nothing. This war is now a blood feud between the two countries. It would tear either country apart for its leadership to just capitulate or try to halt the bloodshed. All wars come to an end, but the end is always messy and difficult, especially for the side that backs down first.

I don't disagree. But at this point it's just killing for killing sake. Arguing who started it and who's to blame is irrelevant. It'd be nice if we take some lessions from history and learn that once there's stalemate every effort should be made to pressure all sides to end it. We may not like that Putin used aggression for territorial gain, but that's the reality we have.

You keep repeating this "pressure on all sides" without giving an example (let alone a reasonable one) of what pressure would work on Russia and on Ukraine to bring this to an end? Without such examples, your position is the functional equivalent of praying to God.