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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

to win the war of attrition, Ukraine needs to be at least five times more efficient in killing Russians than Russia is killing their lads.
^That assumes that killing them is the only way to reduce or eliminate their effectiveness. It’s going to get to the bottom of Russia’s personnel barrel, and eventual you will see Russians arriving in Ukraine happy to be there so they can defect. That ain’t gonna happen on the other side.

I think Putin's plan is to hold out until the west gets tired of the stalemate and forces Ukraine into a ceasefire. In particular, 2024 American presidential election when an isolationist republican takes over

I think that’s the exact plan. If a Dem -or a sane Republican - wins the Presidency (and if a Dem, the ensuing coup attempt is short lived), I believe we’ll see Pootie begging for settlement. If a Republican named Trump wins, Putler is probably out of the woods, so to speak. But that’s the only way I can see him maintaining control of the situation.
 
Prigozhin stands on the precipice of his most daunting assignment yet:
Staying alive. Or staying out of prison. Or both.

I doubt there is a safe place for Prigozhin to go.

To quote Pink Floyd
Run, run, run, run
Run, run, run, run
Run, run, run, run
Run, run, run, run
 
I wouldn't be surprised if Ukraine is targetting trucks with their HIMARS and artilery. They want to make this war as expensive as possible for Russia. You get a lot of bang for your buck by wrecking supply trucks.

That was Germany's main strategy against the UK with their uboat fleet in the Atlantic. That strategy was very effective for Germany. Side note, the British troop type with the, on average, shortest lifespan in WW2 was a British merchant sailor. They were at the time comemorated and honored as the most bravest British soldiers. Often forgotten today.
Disagree--HIMARS don't have seeker heads, they aren't capable of hitting moving targets.
Well if course not. HIMARS is the launcher. GMLRS are the rockets provided to Ukraine that come out of it.

But I think that Loren is still right in that the GMLRS missiles supplied with the HIMARS are not capable of hitting moving targets. However, Turkey did supply Ukraine with the TRLG 230, which is technologically superior and can hit moving targets:

‘Better’ Than HIMARS, Ukraine Gets New Laser-Guided MLRS From From Turkey That Can Even Strike Moving Targets
 
Prigozhin stands on the precipice of his most daunting assignment yet:
Staying alive. Or staying out of prison. Or both.

I doubt there is a safe place for Prigozhin to go.

To quote Pink Floyd
Run, run, run, run
Run, run, run, run
Run, run, run, run
Run, run, run, run
I think talking heads:

Run, run, run, run, run, run, run away, oh-oh-oh
Psycho Killer
Qu'est-ce que c'est?
 
Disagree--HIMARS don't have seeker heads, they aren't capable of hitting moving targets.

This is just pure speculation on my part, but if I was trying to hit a supply truck I would wait until they have arrived to the supply depot. It's a place I know in advance they're going to. So I could line up my weaponry in advance and just wait for the right moment for when to pull the trigger.
The supply depot is a far more important target than the truck. Russia is going to ensure they are out of range of everything Ukraine can throw at them. That's why long range weapons are so important for Ukraine--push those supply depots back and thus greatly reduce the supplies reaching the front.
The territory occupied by Russians are in unfriendly territory. A lot of the people there are really motivated to help the Ukraine army. I think Ukraine knows every detail of the situation in the occupied territory, down to each outhouse and it's occupants. I think it's safe to assume that Ukraine knows everything they need to know to cause maximum damage to the supply trucks.

But all of this is pure speculation on my part.
No--weapons have flight times. Even with perfect feeds from unhappy people on the ground you can't drop a GPS guided weapon that takes a few minutes to reach it's target onto a vehicle.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if Ukraine is targetting trucks with their HIMARS and artilery. They want to make this war as expensive as possible for Russia. You get a lot of bang for your buck by wrecking supply trucks.

That was Germany's main strategy against the UK with their uboat fleet in the Atlantic. That strategy was very effective for Germany. Side note, the British troop type with the, on average, shortest lifespan in WW2 was a British merchant sailor. They were at the time comemorated and honored as the most bravest British soldiers. Often forgotten today.
Disagree--HIMARS don't have seeker heads, they aren't capable of hitting moving targets.
Well if course not. HIMARS is the launcher. GMLRS are the rockets provided to Ukraine that come out of it.

But I think that Loren is still right in that the GMLRS missiles supplied with the HIMARS are not capable of hitting moving targets. However, Turkey did supply Ukraine with the TRLG 230, which is technologically superior and can hit moving targets:

‘Better’ Than HIMARS, Ukraine Gets New Laser-Guided MLRS From From Turkey That Can Even Strike Moving Targets
Laser seeker--they need someone on the ground to paint. They don't leave a flaming signature when they engage, though, so they'll be hard to find.
 
Disagree--HIMARS don't have seeker heads, they aren't capable of hitting moving targets.

This is just pure speculation on my part, but if I was trying to hit a supply truck I would wait until they have arrived to the supply depot. It's a place I know in advance they're going to. So I could line up my weaponry in advance and just wait for the right moment for when to pull the trigger.
The supply depot is a far more important target than the truck. Russia is going to ensure they are out of range of everything Ukraine can throw at them. That's why long range weapons are so important for Ukraine--push those supply depots back and thus greatly reduce the supplies reaching the front.
The territory occupied by Russians are in unfriendly territory. A lot of the people there are really motivated to help the Ukraine army. I think Ukraine knows every detail of the situation in the occupied territory, down to each outhouse and it's occupants. I think it's safe to assume that Ukraine knows everything they need to know to cause maximum damage to the supply trucks.

But all of this is pure speculation on my part.
No--weapons have flight times. Even with perfect feeds from unhappy people on the ground you can't drop a GPS guided weapon that takes a few minutes to reach it's target onto a vehicle.

With the M30A1 warhead with its 186,000 tungsten pellets, one does not need pinpoint accuracy against moving vehicles.
 
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No--weapons have flight times. Even with perfect feeds from unhappy people on the ground you can't drop a GPS guided weapon that takes a few minutes to reach it's target onto a vehicle.

With the M30A1 warhead with its 186,000 tungsten pellets, one does not need pinpoint accuracy against moving vehicles.
The vehicle will have moved far more than the burst radius of the M30A1.
 
No--weapons have flight times. Even with perfect feeds from unhappy people on the ground you can't drop a GPS guided weapon that takes a few minutes to reach it's target onto a vehicle.

With the M30A1 warhead with its 186,000 tungsten pellets, one does not need pinpoint accuracy against moving vehicles.
The vehicle will have moved far more than the burst radius of the M30A1.
That rather depends on whether it's moving, and how fast.

Targeting a truck on a road is an easier problem than targeting an aircraft at high altitude, or a merchant ship underway at long range, and the latter problem can be solved by mechanical "computers" of 1940s vintage.

If a rifleman can be trained to 'lead' a target to shoot down aircraft, then I am pretty sure an artilleryman can be similarly trained to hit a moving truck, particularly if said truck is restricted to a prepared road (either due to mud or mines).
 
No--weapons have flight times. Even with perfect feeds from unhappy people on the ground you can't drop a GPS guided weapon that takes a few minutes to reach it's target onto a vehicle.

With the M30A1 warhead with its 186,000 tungsten pellets, one does not need pinpoint accuracy against moving vehicles.
The vehicle will have moved far more than the burst radius of the M30A1.
That rather depends on whether it's moving, and how fast.

Targeting a truck on a road is an easier problem than targeting an aircraft at high altitude, or a merchant ship underway at long range, and the latter problem can be solved by mechanical "computers" of 1940s vintage.

If a rifleman can be trained to 'lead' a target to shoot down aircraft, then I am pretty sure an artilleryman can be similarly trained to hit a moving truck, particularly if said truck is restricted to a prepared road (either due to mud or mines).
I think anti-tank missiles do this already automatically. They take into account the speed of the vehicle and it where the target is expected to be, if it continues on its current course. But in that case the time to impact is seconds. For artillery or rockets, it could be minutes, which means even a small deviation in speed of the target could cause a miss.

For HIMARS in particular, it sounds like waste of precious rockets to try to hit single supply truck, instead of the place where it's going or coming from. Or other valuable targets. They don't have an infinite supply of M30 rockets, there has to be some prioritization. Same with precision artillery shells. A more surefire way to target the trucks would be remote-controlled drones.
 
I'd say Russia is technically in a better position to wage a war on attrition, but it is hard to be an invading force and doing it that way... back home. Without Wagner, Russia is going to lose some pop. Progress with Wagner wasn't great. I can't imagine it'd improve without them.

Russia's biggest problem isn't the fight, it is the reality that they completely and utterly lack any capacity to occupy Ukraine. Russia usually just gets a despot to do the dirty work, but the despot needs a secret police and military to enforce despotism... not seeing where that is coming from, unless Wagner comes in after they take Kyiv because Ukraine gives up.
While I agree that Russia isn't making any progress, I don't think in war of attrition they have to. They just need to hold on to what they have, or even not lose it too fast. I also think they have no problem occupying the territory indefinitely. They can outright kill the most likely troublemakers (which they already did in the "filtering" phase of the occupation) and transfer any excess population to the backwaters of Russia so that they don't risk popular uprisings. Russia doesn't have to worry about the economy or happiness of the people in the areas it occupies. They did jack shit to Donetsk and Luhanks during the 8 years they occupied Donbas, for example.

It's worth it to take a look at ISW's interactive map. There you can see the positioning of Russia's fortifications they have built in Ukraine. It's slow going now because Ukraine has yet to breech those fortifications. Once they do and there is a path(s) for Ukraine to come in behind those fortifications rendering many of them useless, the pace of the war should pick up some.
If I've understood correctly, it's the mine fields that have stalled the counter-offensive. Forbes had an article about it recently:


So in short, Ukraine tried a breakthrough, but got stuck in minefields, and the disabled vehicles were left open to artillery barrages. They lost a considerable amount of their tanks and IFVs, and other vehicles. An unmitigated disaster. And the problem isn't just "breaching those fortifications". Because there are fortifications behind fortifications, all the way to Crimea. If Ukraine stubbornly tried another counter-offensive like that they'd only lose all their tanks and the war would be over, because they aren't likely to be able to get another donation of Leopards to replace the lost ones.

So, now Ukraine's just taking the low-hanging fruit, and progressing little by little. And I think this is actually a better tactic. It save the Ukrainian reserves and equipment, and seeing the maps progressing the wrong direction will cause panic in Kremlin and when they make a mistake, Ukraine can capitalize.

Currently it seems Ukraine is progressing in three directions: in Kherson, they have a small bridgehead on the left bank of Dnipro. It's rather small and it's too early to say whether it will get anywhere, because supply over the river is difficult, but Russia seems to be having trouble getting rid of it. And that means they will have to allocate more troops to Kherson, away from the two other hot spots.

In Zaporizhzhia, Ukraine has most to gain because it's the route to sea of Azov and to cut Russian troops in half. But being the most obvious direction, it's also the most fortified. Likely Ukraine will progress very slowly, village by village, if at all. And the third direction is bakhmut, near which Ukraine has managed to push Russians back. It seems unlikely that Ukraine can take the city back directly, but if this push goes on long enough, it could get far enough to threaten Bakhmut with encirclement. And the city is important politically to both sides. I just hope that Ukraine is smart enough and doesn't waste its troops in pointless urban warfare.
 
Meduza had an interesting article that provides an insight into the minds of Russians who still support the war:


The magazine asked its readers who support the war, to explain their reasons. And because Meduza was banned in Russia and is an independent news source, presumably the answers are coming from people who have access and are actively getting their information from online and should know how the war is going, rather than just rely on state propaganda.

The recurring theme here seems to be "I didn't support the war, but we can't lose either." Some excerpts:
A war ends when one side wins. Russia’s defeat will mean national humiliation, which we cannot allow. Therefore, we must win — we no longer have a choice.

Ukraine isn’t looking for peace. They’re just asking for more weapons and shelling Russian cities. Too much blood has been spilled for us to just say, “Thanks everyone, time to go our separate ways.”
I don’t support the war, but I also don’t want Russia to lose. If that happens, it will be worse for everybody, and there’s no doubt the world we’re used to will collapse — and an even greater darkness will come. The war was a mistake, but losing it is unacceptable.
I don’t support the war. But unfortunately, the very existence of my Motherland (Russia) is at stake. I don’t want to see the collapse, the destruction of my country. I do have questions for the instigators of the special military operation. But first we need to solve the existential issue.
The only thing worse than a war is a lost war. Starting it was an insane mistake, but now we have to win it; otherwise we’ll be in the position of vae victis. I don’t support Putin — damn him.
[I support the war] because in my view, the “peace plan” presented by Zelensky and supported by the “collective West” is highly likely to do so much damage to Russia that we can’t be sure it would survive. And I’m keenly aware that my well-being, my safety, and my life prospects would worsen significantly more [in that case] than if the Russian army manages to do enough damage to Ukraine that the final peace deal is more of a compromise.
I lost my fucking mind on February 24, [2022]. But as a resident of Russia, I believe that while sending troops into Ukraine was a mistake, withdrawing them would be a crime. I have no intention of paying reparations for the mistakes of others for the next 20 years. Nobody listens to the losing side.

(...) If a European state is being built there [Ukraine], then it’s similar to Francoist Spain or Salazar's Portugal, no different from Putin’s Russia.
 
Reading those responses it's obvious - once again - that propaganda does work. It works because of fear and tribalism. It's a dynamic that nicely explains the support of an abusive guardian.

That said it is obvious that the Russian population has never experienced the multigenerational kind of freedom we enjoy in the west. As such it's understandable and unfortunate the responses.
 
Meduza had an interesting article that provides an insight into the minds of Russians who still support the war:
What an Faustian bargain. It was stupid to do it, but we have to finish stupid. I don’t feel what they feel about how Russia will “cease to exist” if they don’t not-lose. How does failing to expand crusg Russia? How is not having Ukraine an existential threat? I don’t feel they have solid justification for this fear.
 
Reading those responses it's obvious - once again - that propaganda does work. It works because of fear and tribalism. It's a dynamic that nicely explains the support of an abusive guardian.

That said it is obvious that the Russian population has never experienced the multigenerational kind of freedom we enjoy in the west. As such it's understandable and unfortunate the responses.

Americans used the same "we can't quit now!" arguments about Vietnam and the Iraq invasion.
 
In that the Russian government does not have firm control of the internet, surely these people are aware of the offenses visited upon the Ukrainian civilian population. To be foremost concerned with the wounded pride of losing or the economic hardship of continued sanctions/reparations speaks to their character.
 
To be foremost concerned with the wounded pride of losing or the economic hardship of continued sanctions/reparations speaks to their character.
I don't detect wounded pride and economic hardship as much as just being afraid that they are going to be somehow destroyed. It may well be that within the population there is a widespread fear and perhaps even recognition that they cannot keep up with the west, that they do not have the intellectual tools and the competitive will to succeed on an even economic playing field. How many Olympic medals over the decades have come to the Soviet Union because of systematic doping? They can obviously compete and do have the will but there is going to be a learning curve to get past the cheating.

Or it may be as others have said that their fear is comparable to our Red Scare or ideological fear of Communism and that is understandable.
 
Reading those responses it's obvious - once again - that propaganda does work. It works because of fear and tribalism. It's a dynamic that nicely explains the support of an abusive guardian.

That said it is obvious that the Russian population has never experienced the multigenerational kind of freedom we enjoy in the west. As such it's understandable and unfortunate the responses.

Americans used the same "we can't quit now!" arguments about Vietnam and the Iraq invasion.

This is my opinion, as well. There is very little difference between Americans and Russians, but the populations of both countries find themselves in very different situations. We had (and still have) Trump, and I think that many who supported him probably felt that he was a mistake but that their party still had to win to survive. People don't want to give up on bad choices, once committed. And those Russians are probably right to think that things will be pretty bad for them, if they admitted defeat. They want to put off that admission as long as they can, because they'll have to deal with the consequences of a defeat. That possibly could be a civil war inside their country instead of a war in someone else's country.
 
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