How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Jason Harvestdancer]

So popular cluster munitions are now being provided by the US. Damn cluster munitions.

The Russians have been using cluster munitions on civilian areas from the start. But they work quite well against an enemy dug in in trenches as the Russians are.

"They did it too" is not a good reason for the US to engage in something the US considers to be a war crime.

1) Ukraine is dropping on friendly territory--they have good reason to keep very good track of where they drop.

2) Since Russia has been dropping them anyway the landscape is already contaminated. Adding possible Ukranian contamination doesn't really make much difference--cleaning the land is a matter of area far more than a matter of the number of things that go boom.

Is this supposed to make it good?

You're expecting good or bad in a war? How naïve.

US foreign policy is based on, whenever there is a conflict anywhere, figuring out who is the "good guy" and who is the "bad guy" and then supporting the "good guy".

That is naïve. Sometimes there is no "good guy" and sometimes neither side deserves any support.

 

[barbos]

So popular cluster munitions are now being provided by the US. Damn cluster munitions.

The Russians have been using cluster munitions on civilian areas from the start. But they work quite well against an enemy dug in in trenches as the Russians are.

Not only that, they have been using it on their own civilian areas. They also bombed their own Nuclear Plant they occupied. Not to mention they sabotaged their own gas pipeline. In CNN we trust!
It's a miracle that Russians are not defeated. Or wait, they ARE defeated already. In CNN we trust!

 

[barbos]

US foreign policy is based on, whenever there is a conflict anywhere, figuring out who is the "good guy" and who is the "bad guy" and then supporting the "good guy".

Yes, ISIS is a good guy and Assad is a bad guy.

 

[barbos]

That is naïve. Sometimes there is no "good guy" and sometimes neither side deserves any support.

So popular cluster munitions are now being provided by the US. Damn cluster munitions.

The Russians have been using cluster munitions on civilian areas from the start. But they work quite well against an enemy dug in in trenches as the Russians are.

"They did it too" is not a good reason for the US to engage in something the US considers to be a war crime.

Only when other parties are doing it. We manufacture them, after all. Not the only parties that do, of course, but American munitions certainly do their part to keep the juvenile population of the world down.

That panicked screaming is the sound of money, I'm told.

I don’t like the decision, but I understand the necessity. Ask yourself this, if the Russians invading the US; were occupying Oregon and Washington, had killed and raped civilians, had kidnapped thousands of children; then were amassing hundreds of thousands of troops
to invade California, and we were low on ammunition, would you approve dropping cluster bombs to stop the immediate threat? I would say Fuck Yea!

Problem is, US is the one invading here.

 

[barbos]

About Cluster bombs criminal regime in Washington sending to Ukraine.
I think Biden just hates Ukrainians. Cluster bombs are useless against defending forces in trenches.
But they ARE useful against light infantry attacks in the open field which is what ....... Ukraine does in their "counteroffensive"
Now that Russia can use cluster ammo .......

 

[barbos]

"The Ukrainians" are responsible for the actions they take

Yes, they have been bombing civilians population for 8 years.

 

[barbos]

Barbos, you’re alive! We thought you’d been sent to Ukraine! Putin hasn’t drafted your ass,

I have been drafted, but since I speak english and well versed in American pop culture I was assigned the role of governor of the future Illinois Oblast, maybe even all of Америка. Worst case scenario I will be running British isles. I even have my first decree drafted. It's about dubbing Doctor Who into proper (american) english.
Also, Putin said you all will be ordered to learn russian and sing Russian anthem, so start doing so, there will tests soon.
Also, get used to shitty russian food, that too, will be mandatory.

 

[barbos]

What do Russians learn about Russian history? What can they identify in their history that equates with freedom? Anything?

But russians hate your freedom, that's why they invaded America.

 

[barbos]

And that is what this cluster bomb discussion is really about. My belief is that they have been maneuvered into a predicament with very few viable humane solutions.

Yes, Criminal Biden Family have been maneuvered into this. They can not allow another debacle until elections. So they are throwing everything they have into the sink. And Biden have to run, because if he does not, he goes to prison. So poor ukrainian "soldiers" are dying so that old piece of shit does not go to prison.
Is not "democracy" great?

 

[Politesse]

I believe it's dual-faceted, Harry. On one hand, America did not instigate this conflict. However, on the other hand, it's unlikely that America would intentionally assist a country in overcoming a nation that counts itself among America's allies. Hope that made sense.

And what's the focus on cluster bombs anyway? If they didn't exist there would be some other bogeyman munition to fill the need, something that goes just too far, even in a war of survival. If I was fighting in Ukraine, absorbing waves of rockets and cruise missiles on my cities, I'd want truckloads of cluster munitions to throw on my enemy. And I'd keep throwing them as long as the rockets and the bullets and the missiles keep landing on my country. Fuck the moral high ground preachers who aren't in the fight and aren't being targeted and who, for some reason, seem unable to appreciate their freedom and how it was won and needs protected.

You're.. "in the fight"? How? Isn't your country too cowardly to even admit they are at war?

 

[barbos]

Obama recognized Crimea as part of Russia.

Wrong.

Obama refuses to recognize a Russian Crimea. But is secession illegal?

Crimea is set to hold a referendum on March 16 on whether to secede from Ukraine and join Russia. President Obama says it is illegal according to international law. Western scholars agree.

www.csmonitor.com

LOL, your link kinda proves I am right and you are wrong.
By the way, about Crimea. Apparently US "Democracy", in their preparation for that 2014 Nazi Coup d'état in Kiev, conducted a poll in Ukraine and Crimea. Surprise surprise, Crimea turned out to be ....... Russia
Of course results were burried and but since all american shenanigans eventually get unburried........

 

[barbos]

In CPI ranking for 2021, Ukraine is at position 122. But Russia is 136th.

According to CNN Russia blew up their own gas pipeline, your point?
The fact is, Ukraine have never had strong central government, result is - utter corruption.
There is also anecdotal evidence from "occupation" of Crimea. Russian suits were sent to fill the role of governing initially, and they all said, that yes, these people were quite used to "freedom".

 

[barbos]

By the way, I can see through you all here, so I repeat my question again.
What you all think about Jeffrey Sachs views?
Kinda makes you uncomfortable, does not it?

 

[barbos]

I believe it's dual-faceted, Harry. On one hand, America did not instigate this conflict. However, on the other hand, it's unlikely that America would intentionally assist a country in overcoming a nation that counts itself among America's allies. Hope that made sense.

And what's the focus on cluster bombs anyway? If they didn't exist there would be some other bogeyman munition to fill the need, something that goes just too far, even in a war of survival. If I was fighting in Ukraine, absorbing waves of rockets and cruise missiles on my cities, I'd want truckloads of cluster munitions to throw on my enemy. And I'd keep throwing them as long as the rockets and the bullets and the missiles keep landing on my country. Fuck the moral high ground preachers who aren't in the fight and aren't being targeted and who, for some reason, seem unable to appreciate their freedom and how it was won and needs protected.

You're.. "in the fight"? How? Isn't your country too cowardly to even admit they are at war?

Do I see Australia disapproving American actions here?

 

[barbos]

US does not target civilians or steal land because it is not involved in the war except as supplier, and if giving billions of dollars in aid is considered "looting" then I hope the US "loots" my country too!

Native americans called and then mexicans om the other line.
Vietnamese after that. Iraqi too.

 

[barbos]

... is obviously not true. If Russia does everything right, why was it kicked out of Kyiv? Why was it kicked out of Snake Island?

It was not kicked from any of these places. They left orderly, they reacted to the changing situation accordingly.
My advice to you, ease up on western media propaganda.

 

[laughing dog]

"They left orderly, they reacted to the changing situation accordingly" is a rather anodyne retelling of the reality that they fled for their lives.

Yes, Ukraine is using cluster munitions. Of course, Russia was using cluster munitions before Ukraine had them.

I do agree with Jason Harvestdancer that sometimes there are no "good guys" and that the US should refrain from intervening for one side. I don't think this situation is one of those. The Russian "rationales" for their invasion are based on lies, delusions and paranoia.

 

[barbos]

Compare that to the situation last winter when Ukraine was trying to defend Bakhmut. Russia was trying a pincer movement from north and south, and had basically cut off everything but unpaved dirt roads, and Ukraine was still able to supply their troops in the city.

Are you leaving in a cave with TV stuck on CNN channel?
Ukro-idiots were not able to supply their troops in the city. Russians let them do it. That was the whole damn plan.
Your ignorance is mind-boggling.

Yeah right. Instead of taking the city as quickly as possibly, the "plan" was to waste tens of thousands of fighters and several months, and burn through Wagner to the point that they mutiny and march to Moscow.

If that was the "plan" I wish Russia all the best in their future "plans".

Yep, that was the plan. You can call it stupid (it is not) all you want, but that was the plan.
The fact that you are still unaware of that shows how deluded and misinformed you are.

I love barbos' bullshit. "Our plan was to lose all along you idiots!".

Congrats. You "won". I hope you keep on winning. Maybe you can win too.

Just becasue russian plans differs from your expectations does not make they are bad.
Your general plan for counteroffensive failed spectacularly.
Whereas russian plan for Bakhmut worked rather well.

So stop insulting russians and start insulting ukrainians and your own governments, because it's them who gets their ass kicked.

 

[barbos]

Obama recognized Crimea as part of Russia. Secret service is going to to have extra work now.

That's odd, I thought it was Obama that pushed for European countries to do more but they wouldn't listen to the uppity negro. But you do you.

No, Obama famously said (I am paraphrasing) "We are fucked if we go to Ukraine hard",
To which senile Biden replied "Hold my beer!"

That's not to say that Obama is great, he just was not as stupid and corrupt as Biden, which is not much.

 

[Toni]

Wow.