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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

Jayjay said:
First, Russia got itself into the situation. It could have been smarter for the west to help them deal with it, but it was never under any obligation to do so. Letting the Russians deal with their own mess is the default position.
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Russians will or rather should remember next time US wants something from them.
In fact, russians remember it now, and it does not help you at all, does it?
Remember 9-11? Russia helped US and NATO, even though it was a mess created by US.
You have no good will in Russia. So expect Russia sending weapons to any future enemy of US.
 
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Jayjay said:
Putin's speeches about Poland not being a real country
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He never implied that. What he said was that Poland should remember who gave them german land, before they go to Western Ukraine or even Belarus. Putin did imly that about Ukraine and it is true. Ukraine is not a real country, especially now.
 
Jayjay said:
So no source for this poll? Sounds like bullshit.
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Source was cited in Alex Christoforou youtube.
Look, pal, Even fucking Obama admitted that Crimea was Russia. OK. Stop this fucking nonsense.
And Yes there are nazis in Ukraine, a lot of them, source? US Congress.
So stop pretending.
 
Jayjay said:
Well Sachs got fired in 1993. By the time of the 1996 elections most of the privatization was already done, and not according to any American plan but just due to Russian greed and corruption. And don't forget about Chubais.
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What the fuck are you talking about?
 
Jayjay said:
First, Russia got itself into the situation. It could have been smarter for the west to help them deal with it,
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Actually, you are right. Russia got itself in that mess by trusting West and leaving Eastern Europe.
But that can be fixed. Russia needs to first reconstitute Soviet Union, then occupy Eastern Europe, recreate DDR and finally get Finalnd back, Lenin should never have let you go.
Thank you for this great idea. I will relay it to Putin.

PS: since Finland is going to be Russia again, so should Poland.
Russia will get a lot of apples and Formula 1 drivers!
lets make Poland/Finland Russia again!
So, Jayjay, how is your russian?
Don't be afraid, it will be fun, you could go visit your original land (it's around Ural mountains, in case you did not know)
Lots of your distant relatives live there. Speaking of which, one of them (your distant relatives) was my commander in Russian Army.
 
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Jayjay said:
They weren't called bases because they weren't bases.
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They were bases. NATO officers were there, these called bases.
What's next? Enhanced interrogation instead of torture?
These were fucking bases with US military personal in it.
 
Patooka said:
barbos said:
What the fuck are you talking about?
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I love this. Don't ever change, barbos. This is fucking adorable.
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Yeah, some finnish dude explains russian privatization to a guy who have lived through it and was screwed.
Reminded me a guy whom I put on ignore for lecturing (among other ignorable offences) me about russian language.
1996 elections were paid by selling large state owned enterprises for cheap to a select group of future billionaire oligarchs.
That's just a fact. And it was all coordinated by US advisers,
Sachs obviously did not take part in this shit, cause he is a decent human being.
It's not controversial. US does this kind of shenanigans all the time. In Iraq, in Afghanistan, Iran-Contra. They did it in South Korea in the 50-80s.
 
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barbos said:
Jayjay said:
Putin's speeches about Poland not being a real country
Click to expand...
He never implied that. What he said was that Poland should remember who gave them german land, before they go to Western Ukraine or even Belarus. Putin did imly that about Ukraine and it is true. Ukraine is not a real country, especially now.
Click to expand...

Yes, Poland should remember. Who gave them all that German land? It was Stalin! And, after all, it was the least he could do for a poor country that had lost half of its territory in the east. Wait. What happened to that territory? Where did it go? Oh, yeah. It went to Ukraine and Belarus, which were occupied nations inside of the Soviet Union. IOW, the whole thing was an exercise in expanding the Soviet version of the Russian Empire to recover territory that Russians felt they were entitled to as the spoils of war after WWII ended. Entire populations were shifted westward in 1945 to make  Lebensraum for Soviet citizens. Poles were deported en masse to the west. Poland got German lands as a "gift" to compensate for what was stolen.
 
Copernicus said:
TV and credit cards said:
I don't know what Wagner is going to attack anybody with. They left all their armament behind in Russia. Unless Belarus is bursting at the seams with surplus.
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Presumably, they would be armed, resupplied, and directed from Moscow. That assumes that corrupt individuals won't steal everything before it reaches them. Putin really needs the Wagnerites back working for him.
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I think Putin is losing his grip on power, if only somewhat. I read these events as Lukashenko and Prigozhin flexing a bit and Putin having to accept it, putting a good public face on it. Putin must be debating whether or not rearming Wagner is in his best interest. They are closer to Moscow now than they were being stationed in Russia by half.
 
barbos said:
Jayjay said:
First, Russia got itself into the situation. It could have been smarter for the west to help them deal with it,
Click to expand...
Actually, you are right. Russia got itself in that mess by trusting West and leaving Eastern Europe.
But that can be fixed. Russia needs to first reconstitute Soviet Union, then occupy Eastern Europe, recreate DDR and finally get Finalnd back, Lenin should never have let you go.
Thank you for this great idea. I will relay it to Putin.

PS: since Finland is going to be Russia again, so should Poland.
Russia will get a lot of apples and Formula 1 drivers!
lets make Poland/Finland Russia again!
So, Jayjay, how is your russian?
Don't be afraid, it will be fun, you could go visit your original land (it's around Ural mountains, in case you did not know)
Lots of your distant relatives live there. Speaking of which, one of them (your distant relatives) was my commander in Russian Army.
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It's been interesting seeing how your position, and the position of many Russians I presume has evolved. On the first page of this thread, 15 months ago or so, you claimed that Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine. Then you've pretty consistently claimed that Russia was only after Ukraine. There were no intensions to invade anyone else. Ha. I saw through that bullshit since day one. The soon everyone in the west understands that sooner we'll all come together to stop this menace. We must dramatically increase military spending, find more ways to isolate Russia economically, start isolating economically countries that help Russia, and expand NATO further. If not, we'll be at defacto war with Russia for 50 years.
 
US government position evolved even more.
Whether or not to invade was not Russia's decision. Ukraine and US acted and Russia had to react and change their plans.
The Menace resides in Washington. Once it's removed, the illegal war US started would end.
But I hope it happens sooner.
 
barbos said:
US government position evolved even more.
Whether or not to invade was not Russia's decision. Ukraine and US acted and Russia had to react and change their plans.
The Menace resides in Washington. Once it's removed, the illegal war US started would end.
But I hope it happens sooner.
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The US was as much taken by surprise as Putin when Yanukovych was forced to flee by the Maidan protesters. What started out as a peaceful protest against Yanukovych quickly escalated into violence when Yanukovych ordered lethal force used against them. The role of the US ambassador was to try to act as a mediator between protestors and the regime, but both sides were beyond mediation. Obviously, the US favored closer ties between Ukraine and the West, so they had more sympathy for the demands of the protesters. But none of the protesters were there on behalf of anyone but themselves, and they did not take orders from anyone. Yanukovych himself had encouraged Ukrainians to believe that he favored stronger ties with the EU, but he ultimately spurned the economic cooperation agreement with the EU and signed one with Putin's government. THAT is what the protest was about--Yanukovych's complete surprise of an about-face on economic ties with the EU.

See this 2013 special Reuter's report on then current events that led to the protest:

Special Report: Why Ukraine spurned the EU and embraced Russia​


The invasion of Ukraine started promptly after Yanukovych was forced to flee. None of that had anything at all to do with US, EU, or NATO meddling in Ukrainian politics. Those politics were all about a very strong popular movement to align the Ukrainian economy with the West, not Russia. Putin invaded, because the agreement he had with Yanukovych was trashed by the popular uprising against it. This wasn't just a rejection of Russia. It was also a rejection of him personally by Ukrainians. That is why he alone decided to invade, despite an existing agreement with the US, UK, and Ukraine, that Russia would respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.
 
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barbos said:
US government position evolved even more.
Whether or not to invade was not Russia's decision. Ukraine and US acted and Russia had to react and change their plans.
The Menace resides in Washington. Once it's removed, the illegal war US started would end.
But I hope it happens sooner.
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Curious, if the US started the invasion and has bases and has a presence notable enough to warrant "self-defense" by Russia, why the shit attempt to invade Ukraine? If the US has bases in Ukraine and a notable presence, why did Russia attempt a lazy assed pussyfooting effiort to take invade? If Russia invaded Germany (where the US has bases), I've got to think the military effort from Russia would be magnitudes greater.
 
Elixir said:
Translation: Trump lost, forcing Pootey to invade his neighbor instead of simply installing a puppet.
Too bad he suffered from delusions of overwhelming power.
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Pootang can kill anyone he wants because of huge amounts of money he pays to the FSB, money stolen from oil and gas revenues. The reports he was getting from Ukraine were favorable to it going like Crimea just not quite as simple, but quite doable. The problem was that he had only yes-men doing his information bidding.

Pootang never has had any plan other than self enrichment. The irony is that even here on this forum there are those that say Putin raised the standard of living for the average Russian. The truth is that had he and his fellow gangsters not been skimming off so much of Russia's wealth the economic returns would have been much greater. So on balance he fucked everyone to enrich himself, even his fellow gangsters.

Personally I don't think he has delusions of overwhelming power anymore than did Al Capone. They were both clever, ruthless people, and not very smart.
 
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