How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[SigmatheZeta]

There is a saying, "Communism did not ruin Russia, but Russia ruined communism."

In case I have not mentioned it, one of the reasons why I am firmly on the side of Ukraine is that Ukraine was ultimately the Slavic country where anarcho-communism actually did get a foothold. Whether you call it "anarcho-syndicalism" or "libertarian Marxism" or by any other name, the bottom-line is that their philosophy is descended from the views of Pyotr Kropotkin, which are descended from the views of Pierre-Joseph Proudhon. For generations, anarchism has been harshly repressed in Russia.

Anarchism is the opposite of fascism. Anarchy thrives on education because education teaches you to doubt two different lies.

Lie #1: rich people are necessarily better, harder working, and more deserving than you are.
Lie #2: you are a stupid, mindless animal that needs someone bigger than you to control you.

Just by getting an education, you come to doubt both, and to doubt both is anarchy.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Support for joining NATO in Finland is up.

So all this is an elaborate scheme to get Finland into NATO?

???? Why in the world would Putin want Finland into Nato? That makes zero sense!

 

[barbos]

Well, looks like Puti lied again, no pull back and now cyber attacks on Ukraine - a clear prelude to attack. Fuck him.

And don't forget he killed Kennedy. And planted fake WMD into Iraq you found.
I don't recall Putin claiming pullback. There was a report about ending of military exercises in Belarus.


Meanwhile Sweden foreign minister choose to reiterate that they are fine without NATO. So much for threats of joining NATO. Looks like a signal to Ukrainian imbeciles.

Oh my gosh. I hope that you don't believe that Russia operating as it is now (bullying neighbors, stealing land, threatening invasion, tanks, and etc.) is going to discourage countries from trying to join NATO. Please tell me that deep inside you understand that Russia is uniting opposition against it. Russia is destroying trust.

Deep inside all these critters in the EU governments know that what you just said is BS.

 

[barbos]

Support for joining NATO in Finland is up.

So all this is an elaborate scheme to get Finland into NATO?

???? Why in the world would Putin want Finland into Nato? That makes zero sense!

US wants Finland in NATO and that's why they created this crisis.

 

[Harry Bosch]

There is a saying, "Communism did not ruin Russia, but Russia ruined communism."

In case I have not mentioned it, one of the reasons why I am firmly on the side of Ukraine is that Ukraine was ultimately the Slavic country where anarcho-communism actually did get a foothold. Whether you call it "anarcho-syndicalism" or "libertarian Marxism" or by any other name, the bottom-line is that their philosophy is descended from the views of Pyotr Kropotkin, which are descended from the views of Pierre-Joseph Proudhon. For generations, anarchism has been harshly repressed in Russia.

Anarchism is the opposite of fascism. Anarchy thrives on education because education teaches you to doubt two different lies.

Lie #1: rich people are necessarily better, harder working, and more deserving than you are.
Lie #2: you are a stupid, mindless animal that needs someone bigger than you to control you.

Just by getting an education, you come to doubt both, and to doubt both is anarchy.

Sigma: no anarchy country could survive if bordered next to Russia. To survive long term, Ukraine is going to have to dramatically increase it's military readiness to fight off Russia.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Support for joining NATO in Finland is up.

So all this is an elaborate scheme to get Finland into NATO?

???? Why in the world would Putin want Finland into Nato? That makes zero sense!

US wants Finland in NATO and that's why they created this crisis.

Yea, I reject your crazy thesis. But regardless, it is your side that has amassed a large military force on the borders of a neighbor that is on the verge of invasion. Putin controls this current situation. And if your side is honestly so stupid to not realize that you are uniting all of Eastern Europe against you; we are truly in trouble.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

There is a saying, "Communism did not ruin Russia, but Russia ruined communism."

In case I have not mentioned it, one of the reasons why I am firmly on the side of Ukraine is that Ukraine was ultimately the Slavic country where anarcho-communism actually did get a foothold. Whether you call it "anarcho-syndicalism" or "libertarian Marxism" or by any other name, the bottom-line is that their philosophy is descended from the views of Pyotr Kropotkin, which are descended from the views of Pierre-Joseph Proudhon. For generations, anarchism has been harshly repressed in Russia.

Anarchism is the opposite of fascism. Anarchy thrives on education because education teaches you to doubt two different lies.

Lie #1: rich people are necessarily better, harder working, and more deserving than you are.
Lie #2: you are a stupid, mindless animal that needs someone bigger than you to control you.

Just by getting an education, you come to doubt both, and to doubt both is anarchy.

Sigma: no anarchy country could survive if bordered next to Russia. To survive long term, Ukraine is going to have to dramatically increase it's military readiness to fight off Russia.

Anarchism is just libertarianism without the short-sighted egotism. People will kill for liberty if you inform them that they deserve it, and the only thing it costs you is your ability to tyrannize over them, either.

 

[SLD]

Now there’s increased artillery fire in eastern Ukraine as separatists fired artillery at a kindergarten. How dare the Ukrainians fight back! This is the prelude to the Russian invasion. Provoke a reaction and then claim the reaction is the aggression that justifies invasion. Fuck Putin. Seriously, what a cocksucker. I hope his military gets seriously walloped. That’s unlikely, but they could find themselves unable to control the country, and sucked into a quagmire. The US and NATO could support an insurgency there for years that would bleed him and his people dry.

 

[TV and credit cards]

We'll feed Ukraine weapons and starve Russia of cash. This bully with an economy the size of Brazil is going to find out they can't command respect through the barrel of a gun.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Now there’s increased artillery fire in eastern Ukraine as separatists fired artillery at a kindergarten. How dare the Ukrainians fight back! This is the prelude to the Russian invasion. Provoke a reaction and then claim the reaction is the aggression that justifies invasion. Fuck Putin. Seriously, what a cocksucker. I hope his military gets seriously walloped. That’s unlikely, but they could find themselves unable to control the country, and sucked into a quagmire. The US and NATO could support an insurgency there for years that would bleed him and his people dry.

And that's exactly what will happen. After that ends Ukraine will be a bulwark against future Russian megalomania.

And I watched some dashcam video from Russia. They'd better hope they can operate their tanks better than they operate their autos.

Biden is still saying the Russians are going to invade. I like the fact that he's keeping pressure on them.

 

[barbos]

I only wish y

Now there’s increased artillery fire in eastern Ukraine as separatists fired artillery at a kindergarten. How dare the Ukrainians fight back! This is the prelude to the Russian invasion. Provoke a reaction and then claim the reaction is the aggression that justifies invasion. Fuck Putin. Seriously, what a cocksucker. I hope his military gets seriously walloped. That’s unlikely, but they could find themselves unable to control the country, and sucked into a quagmire. The US and NATO could support an insurgency there for years that would bleed him and his people dry.

You don't know what happened.

 

[SLD]

We'll feed Ukraine weapons and starve Russia of cash. This bully with an economy the size of Brazil is going to find out they can't command respect through the barrel of a gun.

I wonder to what extent Russia is vulnerable to cyber attacks. Ukrainians could coordinate such attacks from anywhere in the world.

 

[ZiprHead]

I only wish y

Now there’s increased artillery fire in eastern Ukraine as separatists fired artillery at a kindergarten. How dare the Ukrainians fight back! This is the prelude to the Russian invasion. Provoke a reaction and then claim the reaction is the aggression that justifies invasion. Fuck Putin. Seriously, what a cocksucker. I hope his military gets seriously walloped. That’s unlikely, but they could find themselves unable to control the country, and sucked into a quagmire. The US and NATO could support an insurgency there for years that would bleed him and his people dry.

You don't know what happened.

Neither do you.

 

[barbos]

I only wish y

Now there’s increased artillery fire in eastern Ukraine as separatists fired artillery at a kindergarten. How dare the Ukrainians fight back! This is the prelude to the Russian invasion. Provoke a reaction and then claim the reaction is the aggression that justifies invasion. Fuck Putin. Seriously, what a cocksucker. I hope his military gets seriously walloped. That’s unlikely, but they could find themselves unable to control the country, and sucked into a quagmire. The US and NATO could support an insurgency there for years that would bleed him and his people dry.

You don't know what happened.

Neither do you.

I did not say I did.

 

[Copernicus]

The news reports don't say whether the Ukrainians fired back, but it seems that they did not. Otherwise, all of Russia would rise up in rage. Well, maybe not, but that would be the story on Russian TV. I don't know whether Russia is capable of creating a credible false flag excuse to invade, given that Biden has effectively undercut them. In the end, it won't matter. I think that the world is pretty clearly aware of the game Putin is playing. Half the Russian invasion force is now within 31 miles of Ukraine's border.

Almost half of Russia's battle groups surrounding Ukraine now within about 31 miles of the border- Western officials​

 

[Elixir]

Half the Russian invasion force is now within 31 miles of Ukraine's border.

Can you (or anyone here) say what percentage of the Russian military this "invasion force" represents?
Would it even hurt Pootey at all, if the entire force was wiped out at once by air strikes? I kinda doubt it.

 

[Copernicus]

Half the Russian invasion force is now within 31 miles of Ukraine's border.

Can you (or anyone here) say what percentage of the Russian military this "invasion force" represents?
Would it even hurt Pootey at all, if the entire force was wiped out at once by air strikes? I kinda doubt it.

Apparently, these are battle groups that can be counted by satellite. Also, according to the report, they have just constructed a pontoon bridge, which would be unusual for the kind of military exercise Russia has claimed they are on. If Putin is just bluffing an invasion, he is going to elaborate lengths to do so. Given the effort, expense, and difficulty of assembling a concentration of troops that is around 150,000 strong, it is hard to imagine how he could not invade.

Putin is not a personally courageous man, although he tries to project an image of strength. We've all seen the mile-long table that he uses these days to keep visitors from getting too close. Whether he fears assassination or contamination from COVID, this is not the behavior of a brave man. He has to be worried about whether all of the overkill just to take Ukraine is going to be a good look for him or lead to a controllable situation in the future. This isn't going to be as easy as poisoning a dissident's underwear.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Putin is not a personally courageous man, although he tries to project an image of strength. We've all seen the mile-long table that he uses these days to keep visitors from getting too close. Whether he fears assassination or contamination from COVID, this is not the behavior of a brave man. He has to be worried about whether all of the overkill just to take Ukraine is going to be a good look for him or lead to a controllable situation in the future. This isn't going to be as easy as poisoning a dissident's underwear.

Within certain Russian circles and within his own brain he sees himself as some kind of savior I'm certain. He probably just wants eastern Ukraine which is a finger stabbing into the heart of his beloved empire. He doesn't have another next move.

 

[lpetrich]

Titled link: Finland Is a Valuable Contributor to Global Security | CEPA - Feb 14

31 miles = 50 kilometers -- thus the odd-looking English-unit value


 Deportation of the Crimean Tatars - Joseph Stalin ordered the deportation of some 200,000 of them to Uzbekistan, and some of them have later returned. Tatars are various Turkic peoples.


I agree on maybe wanting Eastern Ukraine. The Southern Ukraine and Crimea also, I'm sure.

But I suspect that if that happens, the rest of Ukraine will quickly join NATO, and soon be joined by Sweden, Finland, and Eurasian Georgia.

 

[Copernicus]

For more background, consider the name of Vladimir Putin's party--"United Russia" (Единая Россия) and his use to the phrase "One Russia" to signify the national unity of the Russian people with Belarus and Ukraine. This idea emerged during the growth of the Russian Empire, when Russia absorbed the territories of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which had ruled over most of Belarus and Ukraine since they won independence from the Mongols a century before the Duchy of Muscovy did.

After the breakup of the Soviet Union, extreme Russian nationalists revived this tsarist notion of the "Triune Nation" of Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine. Putin's "One People" campaign (Триединый русский народ--"triune Russian people") is what I believe is the real motivation for Putin's behavior. The irredentist revival of this expanded "All Russian people" will be his legacy. So I don't really believe that Putin's demands about "NATO expansion" can really be used as a basis for stopping his aggression in Ukraine. He really wants to stamp out Ukrainian nationalism, which is totally at odds with his version of Russian nationalism. IOW, the "NATO" talk is a smokescreen for his real goal, and that entails subduing Ukraine militarily, occupying as much of the country as possible, and installing a pro-Russia regime that can ultimately lead to a unification--Russian passports for everyone in Belarus and Ukraine.

See  All-Russian Nation, especially the section on "Present Times" about 2/3 of the way down the page.

The All-Russian nation (Russian: общерусский народ, romanized: obshcherusskiy narod), also known as the pan-Russian nation or the triune Russian nation (Russian: триединый русский народ, romanized: triyedinyy russkiy narod) is an Imperial Russian[1] and Russian irredentist ideology which sees the Russian nation as comprising the three sub-nations Great Russians, Little Russians and White Russians, which include modern East Slavs (namely, Russians, Rusyns, Ukrainians and Belarusians), rather than only modern Russia and ethnic Russians.[2][3]

An imperial nation-building dogma became popular in the Tsardom of Russia and the Russian Empire and later became the official state ideology. The triune "All-Russian" nationality was embraced by many imperial subjects (including Jews and Germans) and served as the foundation of the Empire.[4]