How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[T.G.G. Moogly]

When the Soviet Union collapsed there were many in the west, myself included, who thought we were seeing the democratization of Russia. This expectation is what led to statements that NATO would not expand eastward in Europe. There was much talk at the time about including Russia in European affairs same as any other European nation.

What put a stop on all that was Putin's election and subsequent behavior. If Russia had truly democratized there wouldn't be a need for NATO. NATO would have become moot at best and Russia would be a member of the global community like any other state with basic freedoms like freedom of the press, travel, etc.

It just seems that Russia can't outgrow its Tsarist legacy.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Dear world,

From where I stand, Putin's attitude toward Ukraine seems almost reminiscent of how the Iraqis were supposed to greet Americans with flowers. Yes, I realize that Cheney's actual remarks on the subject were more complex than that, but regardless, the United States is really not all that different from Russia. Our country has a history of marching into other people's countries and proclaiming, to the defeated and broken populace, that we have come to them as "great liberators" after we have devastated their economy and interfered with a political situation that was really substantially more complex than we really understood. When the world criticized the actions of my government, during and after that debacle, I largely agreed with them, and I said, "This is why the world has come to hate my country."

It wasn't that I ever hated the United States. I really love my country, but I am critical of my country because I love my country. I do not practice the selfish love of a permissive parent. I will not practice it toward my country anymore than I would practice it toward my own child if I could ever have a child of my own. If somebody says that I have ceased to love my country if there are times when I criticize my country, then they have failed to understand the nature of love.

I wonder if there is a young person, in Russia, that is little bit like the person I was, a generation ago. Perhaps she is a young transgender woman that, as I did at the time, lives in a country where expressing that part of herself is still unsafe, in many areas. Perhaps she feels a little bit like I did, when my country's government was making what I felt was a mistake.

I don't hate Russians, at least not just for being Russians, but I hate imperialism. Just because someone besides the United States is doing it doesn't make it anything else. I don't like my own country's imperialism, and I don't like anybody else's imperialism, either.


Kindest regards,
Sigma

 

[Copernicus]

It just seems that Russia can't outgrow its Tsarist legacy.

I would say that Russia is fully capable of outgrowing it and that many, especially in the younger generations, already have. However, Putin came to power in 2000. He forced Yeltsin to resign on New Year's Eve and was inaugurated as President on May 7, 2000. Since then, it has been a gradual slide into a corrupt fascist dictatorship, with Putin emerging as the undisputed ruler for as long as he can maintain power.

I had a chance to visit Russia in 1997, when the economy was still in chaos, so I understand why Russians appreciate the economic stability and national pride that Putin had managed to give them until 2014 at least. But I did have a lot of conversations with friends and acquaintances there at the time, particularly students and faculty at the University of Moscow. I found the lobby of the building that housed the Humanities Faculty in disarray. It was like a Middle Eastern bazaar, with people selling whatever they could just to make money to survive. Democracy didn't look so good then. One of the woman professors there told me that her greatest fear would be that those who had run Russia before would find some way to return to power. Three years later, Putin shoehorned his way into the top position.

 

[Copernicus]

Ukrainian President Zelensky addresses the security conference in Munich. (The English translation is a bit jumbled at times, as the interpreter struggles to keep up with him.) He made several references to the Budapest Memo and mentioned that Ukraine had given up its nuclear weapons in return for assurances about maintaining its sovereignty and security. He is calling one last time for the countries that signed it to meet, but that isn't going to happen. In the end, he refers to the Ukrainians who were recently killed and three young children who suddenly found themselves without a father. As we wait for Russia to unleash a war that Ukraine is certain to lose, that tragedy will repeat itself in catastrophic proportion.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Dear world,

From where I stand, Putin's attitude toward Ukraine seems almost reminiscent of how the Iraqis were supposed to greet Americans with flowers. Yes, I realize that Cheney's actual remarks on the subject were more complex than that, but regardless, the United States is really not all that different from Russia. Our country has a history of marching into other people's countries and proclaiming, to the defeated and broken populace, that we have come to them as "great liberators" after we have devastated their economy and interfered with a political situation that was really substantially more complex than we really understood. When the world criticized the actions of my government, during and after that debacle, I largely agreed with them, and I said, "This is why the world has come to hate my country."

It wasn't that I ever hated the United States. I really love my country, but I am critical of my country because I love my country. I do not practice the selfish love of a permissive parent. I will not practice it toward my country anymore than I would practice it toward my own child if I could ever have a child of my own. If somebody says that I have ceased to love my country if there are times when I criticize my country, then they have failed to understand the nature of love.

I wonder if there is a young person, in Russia, that is little bit like the person I was, a generation ago. Perhaps she is a young transgender woman that, as I did at the time, lives in a country where expressing that part of herself is still unsafe, in many areas. Perhaps she feels a little bit like I did, when my country's government was making what I felt was a mistake.

I don't hate Russians, at least not just for being Russians, but I hate imperialism. Just because someone besides the United States is doing it doesn't make it anything else. I don't like my own country's imperialism, and I don't like anybody else's imperialism, either.


Kindest regards,
Sigma

Sigma: I don't think that there are many Americans who support American imperialism. I was strongly against it from day one. Is it your view that Americans shouldn't condemn current Russian imperialism because we've had leaders in our past who were very imperialistic?

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Dear world,

From where I stand, Putin's attitude toward Ukraine seems almost reminiscent of how the Iraqis were supposed to greet Americans with flowers. Yes, I realize that Cheney's actual remarks on the subject were more complex than that, but regardless, the United States is really not all that different from Russia. Our country has a history of marching into other people's countries and proclaiming, to the defeated and broken populace, that we have come to them as "great liberators" after we have devastated their economy and interfered with a political situation that was really substantially more complex than we really understood. When the world criticized the actions of my government, during and after that debacle, I largely agreed with them, and I said, "This is why the world has come to hate my country."

It wasn't that I ever hated the United States. I really love my country, but I am critical of my country because I love my country. I do not practice the selfish love of a permissive parent. I will not practice it toward my country anymore than I would practice it toward my own child if I could ever have a child of my own. If somebody says that I have ceased to love my country if there are times when I criticize my country, then they have failed to understand the nature of love.

I wonder if there is a young person, in Russia, that is little bit like the person I was, a generation ago. Perhaps she is a young transgender woman that, as I did at the time, lives in a country where expressing that part of herself is still unsafe, in many areas. Perhaps she feels a little bit like I did, when my country's government was making what I felt was a mistake.

I don't hate Russians, at least not just for being Russians, but I hate imperialism. Just because someone besides the United States is doing it doesn't make it anything else. I don't like my own country's imperialism, and I don't like anybody else's imperialism, either.


Kindest regards,
Sigma

Sigma: I don't think that there are many Americans who support American imperialism. I was strongly against it from day one. Is it your view that Americans shouldn't condemn current Russian imperialism because we've had leaders in our past who were very imperialistic?

My opinion is that I object to American imperialism not because America is doing it but because it is imperialism, and I object to Russian imperialism not because Russia is doing it but because it is imperialism. Calling imperialism by any other name than imperialism does not negate the fact that it is imperialism.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Dear world,

From where I stand, Putin's attitude toward Ukraine seems almost reminiscent of how the Iraqis were supposed to greet Americans with flowers. Yes, I realize that Cheney's actual remarks on the subject were more complex than that, but regardless, the United States is really not all that different from Russia. Our country has a history of marching into other people's countries and proclaiming, to the defeated and broken populace, that we have come to them as "great liberators" after we have devastated their economy and interfered with a political situation that was really substantially more complex than we really understood. When the world criticized the actions of my government, during and after that debacle, I largely agreed with them, and I said, "This is why the world has come to hate my country."

It wasn't that I ever hated the United States. I really love my country, but I am critical of my country because I love my country. I do not practice the selfish love of a permissive parent. I will not practice it toward my country anymore than I would practice it toward my own child if I could ever have a child of my own. If somebody says that I have ceased to love my country if there are times when I criticize my country, then they have failed to understand the nature of love.

I wonder if there is a young person, in Russia, that is little bit like the person I was, a generation ago. Perhaps she is a young transgender woman that, as I did at the time, lives in a country where expressing that part of herself is still unsafe, in many areas. Perhaps she feels a little bit like I did, when my country's government was making what I felt was a mistake.

I don't hate Russians, at least not just for being Russians, but I hate imperialism. Just because someone besides the United States is doing it doesn't make it anything else. I don't like my own country's imperialism, and I don't like anybody else's imperialism, either.


Kindest regards,
Sigma

Sigma: I don't think that there are many Americans who support American imperialism. I was strongly against it from day one. Is it your view that Americans shouldn't condemn current Russian imperialism because we've had leaders in our past who were very imperialistic?

My opinion is that I object to American imperialism not because America is doing it but because it is imperialism, and I object to Russian imperialism not because Russia is doing it but because it is imperialism. Calling imperialism by any other name than imperialism does not negate the fact that it is imperialism.

Okay. I agree. I'm against American imperialism and Russian imperialism. The issue here is that my friend Barbos will claim that we are imperialists by attempting to discourage Russian imperialism. Or something like that!

 

[Elixir]

Barbos will claim that we are imperialists by attempting to discourage Russian imperialism. Or something like that!

I think they watch too many old American TV commercials.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

"Open doors are good but we need open answers." Zelensky made a good address. Reminds me a bit of Churchill's beating on Britain's ear that war is upon us and we must prepare.

 

[Harry Bosch]

"Open doors are good but we need open answers." Zelensky made a good address. Reminds me a bit of Churchill's beating on Britain's ear that war is upon us and we must prepare.

BBC is reporting that once Russia invades, they will send in assassins to murder Zelensky and many of his associates. You have to hand it to him and the Ukranian people: they are very brave.

 

[Copernicus]

"Open doors are good but we need open answers." Zelensky made a good address. Reminds me a bit of Churchill's beating on Britain's ear that war is upon us and we must prepare.

Exactly, but there were no nuclear weapons at the time and Britain was not prepared for a land war in Europe. Ukraine knows exactly how the Czechs felt when its supporters all turned their backs while Hitler seized its territory and then its nationhood.

Now we have a situation where Ukraine cannot be defended militarily in any serious way without triggering a possible nuclear exchange. So it gets helmets, "nonlethal" aid, and some antitank weapons. Putin feels free to threaten Georgia and Ukraine because they never made it into the NATO club, where Putin would need to consider a possible nuclear war, if he were to invade. In any case, I think he also really does feel that Ukraine and Russia ought to be considered part of the same nation, even if Ukrainians say they don't want the bear hug from Russia. It is a bit like a rapist proclaiming his love for the victim.

 

[Copernicus]

"Open doors are good but we need open answers." Zelensky made a good address. Reminds me a bit of Churchill's beating on Britain's ear that war is upon us and we must prepare.

BBC is reporting that once Russia invades, they will send in assassins to murder Zelensky and many of his associates. You have to hand it to him and the Ukranian people: they are very brave.

They may be basing it on this news report, which is said to be based on US intelligence sources:

Russia Planning Post-Invasion Arrest and Assassination Campaign in Ukraine, U.S. Officials Say​

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Evacuation Crisis in east Ukraine exposed as Russian Hoax

...the false-flag effort appeared neither particularly sophisticated — nor very convincing. Residents of the separatist republics were as skeptical as anyone about the claims that Ukrainian forces were ready to attack and try to reclaim the territory in the eight-year war with Russian-backed separatist fighters.

...many people had no plans to evacuate after orders came Friday. “Some people panicked, but mostly people are taking it easy and do not want to go anywhere,” she said, interviewed via Telegram. Like others, she spoke on the condition of anonymity because of fears of reprisals from local separatist authorities.

Others who were in the separatist areas Saturday said the situation was calm with few signs of a major evacuation. Several people interviewed said that those who left were motivated by a 10,000-ruble payment on arrival in Russia, about $130, that the Russian government announced Friday.

One thing for certain is that Russian backed separatists have increased shelling, obviously attempting to provoke Ukraine.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Evacuation Crisis in east Ukraine exposed as Russian Hoax

...the false-flag effort appeared neither particularly sophisticated — nor very convincing. Residents of the separatist republics were as skeptical as anyone about the claims that Ukrainian forces were ready to attack and try to reclaim the territory in the eight-year war with Russian-backed separatist fighters.

...many people had no plans to evacuate after orders came Friday. “Some people panicked, but mostly people are taking it easy and do not want to go anywhere,” she said, interviewed via Telegram. Like others, she spoke on the condition of anonymity because of fears of reprisals from local separatist authorities.

Others who were in the separatist areas Saturday said the situation was calm with few signs of a major evacuation. Several people interviewed said that those who left were motivated by a 10,000-ruble payment on arrival in Russia, about $130, that the Russian government announced Friday.

One thing for certain is that Russian backed separatists have increased shelling, obviously attempting to provoke Ukraine.

It's unbelievable how predictable Putin is.

 

[Copernicus]

Evacuation Crisis in east Ukraine exposed as Russian Hoax

...the false-flag effort appeared neither particularly sophisticated — nor very convincing. Residents of the separatist republics were as skeptical as anyone about the claims that Ukrainian forces were ready to attack and try to reclaim the territory in the eight-year war with Russian-backed separatist fighters.

...many people had no plans to evacuate after orders came Friday. “Some people panicked, but mostly people are taking it easy and do not want to go anywhere,” she said, interviewed via Telegram. Like others, she spoke on the condition of anonymity because of fears of reprisals from local separatist authorities.

Others who were in the separatist areas Saturday said the situation was calm with few signs of a major evacuation. Several people interviewed said that those who left were motivated by a 10,000-ruble payment on arrival in Russia, about $130, that the Russian government announced Friday.

One thing for certain is that Russian backed separatists have increased shelling, obviously attempting to provoke Ukraine.

This is what I've been hearing, as well. Richard Engel, reporting from Mariupol last night, said that he had no direct knowledge about the evacuation, since he was embedded in Ukrainian-held territory, but he had heard from colleagues that the busses departing for Russia were seen in footage to be much less than full. This so-called evacuation looks like part of their false flag effort.

 

[Copernicus]

This is an article that gives details of the kindergarten that was targeted by Russian or pro-Russian forces in Luhansk proper. The school was in a suburb of Luhansk on the Ukrainian side of the front, and children were present when the shell hit.

Shelling by Russian-backed separatists raises tensions in east Ukraine​

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

This is what I've been hearing, as well. Richard Engel, reporting from Mariupol last night, said that he had no direct knowledge about the evacuation, since he was embedded in Ukrainian-held territory, but he had heard from colleagues that the busses departing for Russia were seen in footage to be much less than full. This so-called evacuation looks like part of their false flag effort.

For some balance I watched NBC and the report was much the opposite about what was happening in the separatist regions. But he isn't there so I don't know how he gets his information. He reported that men were flocking to separatist recruitment centers, ATMs were empty because everyone was taking out their money, busses were packed and 30,000 people had already evacuated.

But then he said that everything in Ukrainian territory outside the conflict zones was as peaceful as ever.

 

[Copernicus]

Apparently, those who agree to evacuate are being paid, so that would definitely be attractive to some, especially if they have family in Russia. Luhansk and Donetsk have announced a "full mobilization". A run on the banks doesn't sound all that strange, under the circumstances, especially by those who are joining the sponsored evacuation. However, I think that those in the Russian-controlled territories expect the main danger to be in Ukrainian-held territory.

 

[barbos]

By West I usually mean US and more specifically US neocons. As for the rest of the US they do what US tells them to do, for the most part.
But you are right, it's not as monolithic as US media portrays.

You say that is if Putin and his lackeys aren't trying to do the same thing. If Putin and the U.S. are both attempting to establish their forms of government in these countries then it's game-on. Right? Why are you and Putin being big crybabies because you are losing? You lose and so you resort to military force instead of letting the people decide what they want. You don't like losing so you cheat, no different than in olympics competition.

I am not following you here. Why did US (through its lackey) attack Russia in 2008?
You were losing and decided to use military force?
And now, why are you attacking Russia again (using Ukraine)?

Well, either you really aren't understanding my point or you're just being childish.

You will agree that both Russia and the U.S. want to export their forms of government. Why is Russia having such a hard time in Europe and eastern Europe? Why don't these countries rush to adopt the Russian model? Are you saying that the U.S. is a better cheater and that therefore Putin is forced to resort to military threats? Is that your argument?

Nobody exports anything. US wants to control every country in the world regardless of their form of government. "Democracy" is preferable (easier to control in the long term), but monarchies-despotism are fine too. Russia just does not want to be controlled.

 

[barbos]

One thing for certain is that Russian backed separatists have increased shelling, obviously attempting to provoke Ukraine.

That's what your media says. They said the same thing about South Ossetia, they lied.
Blinken says it would be stupid for Ukraine to attack Eastern Ukraine.

I don't think so, it's genius to attack Eastern Ukraine now. Because chances of Putin responding by recognizing and occupying these places is 100%.
1. Ukraine gets rid of these useless patches of land, they don't control anyway
2. Successfully blames Russia
3. Kills Nord Stream2
4. Kills Minsk Accords

This is genius! I wish Putin does not react to this provocation. But that's unlikely.