How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[SLD]

So now Pootey is recognizing the Republics of Donetsk and Luhansk as separate and independent states. This of course violates the Minsk agreements that Pootey has been claiming as his casus belli, as well as specific guarantees that Russia made when the Soviet Union split up. I wonder if Ukraine secretly has some nukes? Or at least rapidly developing them.

I feel like we are back in 1938 listening to Hitler rant about the Sudetenland. I wonder if we will have another “peace in our time” moment.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Putin to recognize Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics (also known as "part of Ukraine").

It was a thinly veiled threat against the government of President Volodymyr Zelensky, which denies that it is responsible for the escalating shelling on the front line between Ukrainian forces and Russian-backed separatists in recent days. Russian state television has broadcast extensive reports claiming that Ukraine is preparing an offensive against the separatist territories — claims that Kyiv denies.

Not since the threat of Obama invading Texas, has self-invasion been such a threat!

 

[Elixir]

So now Pootey is recognizing the Republics of Donetsk and Luhansk as separate and independent states.

Right, just as predicted. If he stands down elsewhere and just appropriates those two states, he can (will) claim to be the peacemaker who withdrew to placate the Western aggressors. No invasion!! Just defending Mother Russia’s citizens!

 

[Copernicus]

And now the US starts imposing sanctions. The values of both the ruble and hryvnia have plummeted. Russian stocks have tanked. Biden to announce detailed sanctions later on. So far, the only announced sanctions affect the Russian-held Donetsk and Luhansk puppet regimes.

Biden plans to impose new sanctions on trade and financing in two pro-Moscow territories​

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So now Pootey is recognizing the Republics of Donetsk and Luhansk as separate and independent states.

Right, just as predicted. If he stands down elsewhere and just appropriates those two states, he can (will) claim to be the peacemaker who withdrew to placate the Western aggressors. No invasion!! Just defending Mother Russia’s citizens!

Putin (or his handlers) knows how to play chess. We can only hope that the "genocide" can end before there are no Republics of Donetsk and Luhansk left.

Meanwhile:

In a shocking development, merely hours after Russian "President" Vladimir Putin recognized the Republics of Donetsk and Luhansk, representatives of these new Republics formerly requested membership into NATO.

While a formal vote would be necessary, due to the "imminent danger" the Republics of Donetsk and Luhansk are under from both Ukraine shelling and the Russian troop mobilizations around their borders, NATO had assured the delegation that they would almost assuredly be admitted without question into NATO.

 

[Copernicus]

I would not call starting a war in Ukraine playing with a full deck of cards, let alone chess. Putin has already crossed the line and will feel immediate sanctions from both the US and EU countries. Those sanctions have not been made public yet, but this act of recognition is being viewed as annexation, since Russian "peacekeepers" will enter Ukrainian territory on the same pretext that it entered Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Meanwhile, Belarus is also facing sanctions, since it has allowed its territory to be used as a staging ground for an invasion of its neighbor to the south. In reality, though, Belarus exists as an independent government in name only. With Russian troops occupying its territory, Lukashenko is nothing more than a figurehead.

Rouble sinks, stocks plunge as Russia recognises Ukraine breakaway regions​

Barbos once said that his main concern was "money" when speaking about money he thought that Ukraine owed Russia. He is about to learn more about money.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I would not call starting a war in Ukraine playing with a full deck of cards, let alone chess. Putin has already crossed the line and will feel immediate sanctions from both the US and EU countries.

Trump won in 2016, Putin is still in charge in Russia, and they already annexed Crimea. Please let me know when Putin has been stopped from doing what he wanted. He has recognized a new republic(s) in the next step of his ultimate goal.

Those sanctions have not been made public yet, but this act of recognition is being viewed as annexation, since Russian "peacekeepers" will enter Ukrainian territory on the same pretext that it entered Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Meanwhile, Belarus is also facing sanctions, since it has allowed its territory to be used as a staging ground for an invasion of its neighbor to the south. In reality, though, Belarus exists as an independent government in name only. With Russian troops occupying its territory, Lukashenko is nothing more than a figurehead.

And how will any of this change? We aren't going to war over Ukraine, that is pretty much reasons #1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 9 to 175 why Ukraine aren't in NATO.

 

[skepticalbip]

So now Pootey is recognizing the Republics of Donetsk and Luhansk as separate and independent states.

Right, just as predicted. If he stands down elsewhere and just appropriates those two states, he can (will) claim to be the peacemaker who withdrew to placate the Western aggressors. No invasion!! Just defending Mother Russia’s citizens!

I really hate to invoke Hitler but history is history. Germany's original 'excuse' for invading and annexing Austria was to "protect" the Germans and German speaking peoples there and anyway "Austria was really part of Germany". Putin's continuing "reabsorbing" territories strikes me much like Germany's "lebensraum" only a bit slower implementation.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'd say the big difference is Russia ain't going for European dominance like Hitler did. Russia's oil and gas would be targeted and immediately done away with.

 

[Copernicus]

I would not call starting a war in Ukraine playing with a full deck of cards, let alone chess. Putin has already crossed the line and will feel immediate sanctions from both the US and EU countries.

Trump won in 2016, Putin is still in charge in Russia, and they already annexed Crimea. Please let me know when Putin has been stopped from doing what he wanted. He has recognized a new republic(s) in the next step of his ultimate goal.

What exactly do you think Putin is winning here? He already controlled territory in Donetsk and Luhansk. He already had some troops there with military advisors. This act only lets him do openly what he was already doing. Russia would be a lot better off by not attacking Ukraine, since it poses no actual threat. NATO hasn't budged an inch to allow Ukraine or Georgia membership ever since the Bucharest summit in 2008, nor is there any prospect of that happening. All Putin has achieved here is to bring down sanctions on himself and the Russian economy. What is driving all of this is an irrational ultranationalist myth about Ukraine being part of Russia. That and the fact that Putin, along with many Russian nationalists, felt deeply humiliated when the Soviet empire fell apart. What we are witnessing here is naked  revanchism.

Those sanctions have not been made public yet, but this act of recognition is being viewed as annexation, since Russian "peacekeepers" will enter Ukrainian territory on the same pretext that it entered Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Meanwhile, Belarus is also facing sanctions, since it has allowed its territory to be used as a staging ground for an invasion of its neighbor to the south. In reality, though, Belarus exists as an independent government in name only. With Russian troops occupying its territory, Lukashenko is nothing more than a figurehead.

And how will any of this change? We aren't going to war over Ukraine, that is pretty much reasons #1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 9 to 175 why Ukraine aren't in NATO.

Do you actually believe that the US wants Ukraine in NATO? US policy is that Ukraine can seek to join NATO as can any sovereign nation. Being allowed in was never a practical option. The US is not striving to change anything other than to get Russia to leave Ukraine alone. After all, we still have an obligation to defend the security of Ukraine, since we signed the Budapest memo. It is Putin who seeks to change the status quo. Economic sanctions are the only feasible way for the west to hit back at Russia, and sanctions actually do have an affect on the Russian economy. The ruble and Russian stocks have already taken a nosedive. Some of the more draconian sanctions on the table will be even more damaging. If Putin wants to hold on to power, he may want to consider taking up a different game than the one you call "chess".

See

Putin’s absurd, angry spectacle will be a turning point in his long reign​

 

[skepticalbip]

I'd say the big difference is Russia ain't going for European dominance like Hitler did.

Does anyone really know what Putin's ultimate goals really are? We can only guess by his actions. Those are that he has taken Georgia then Crimea and now appears set to take at least part of Ukraine, if not all of it.

Russia's oil and gas would be targeted and immediately done away with.

I don't understand what is meant by this bit.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I would not call starting a war in Ukraine playing with a full deck of cards, let alone chess. Putin has already crossed the line and will feel immediate sanctions from both the US and EU countries.

Trump won in 2016, Putin is still in charge in Russia, and they already annexed Crimea. Please let me know when Putin has been stopped from doing what he wanted. He has recognized a new republic(s) in the next step of his ultimate goal.

What exactly do you think Putin is winning here? He already controlled territory in Donetsk and Luhansk. He already had some troops there with military advisors. This act only lets him do openly what he was already doing. Russia would be a lot better off by not attacking Ukraine, since it poses no actual threat. NATO hasn't budged an inch to allow Ukraine or Georgia membership ever since the Bucharest summit in 2008, nor is there any prospect of that happening. All Putin has achieved here is to bring down sanctions on himself and the Russian economy. What is driving all of this is an irrational ultranationalist myth about Ukraine being part of Russia. That and the fact that Putin, along with many Russian nationalists, felt deeply humiliated when the Soviet empire fell apart. What we are witnessing here is naked  revanchism.

And he'll be annexing the new "Republics" shortly, of course after they formerly "ask" to join Russia. That'd be winning. I am hardly siding with the guy, just recognizing that Putin tends to get away with quite a bit.

Those sanctions have not been made public yet, but this act of recognition is being viewed as annexation, since Russian "peacekeepers" will enter Ukrainian territory on the same pretext that it entered Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Meanwhile, Belarus is also facing sanctions, since it has allowed its territory to be used as a staging ground for an invasion of its neighbor to the south. In reality, though, Belarus exists as an independent government in name only. With Russian troops occupying its territory, Lukashenko is nothing more than a figurehead.

And how will any of this change? We aren't going to war over Ukraine, that is pretty much reasons #1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 9 to 175 why Ukraine aren't in NATO.

Do you actually believe that the US wants Ukraine in NATO? US policy is that Ukraine can seek to join NATO as can any sovereign nation. Being allowed in was never a practical option. The US is not striving to change anything other than to get Russia to leave Ukraine alone. After all, we still have an obligation to defend the security of Ukraine, since we signed the Budapest memo. It is Putin who seeks to change the status quo. Economic sanctions are the only feasible way for the west to hit back at Russia, and sanctions actually do have an affect on the Russian economy. The ruble and Russian stocks have already taken a nosedive. Some of the more draconian sanctions on the table will be even more damaging.

What, as opposed to all the existing sanctions?

If Putin wants to hold on to power, he may want to consider taking up a different game than the one you call "chess".

It is chess. It is a very long con. Putin isn't a one man show and I doubt his reign in Russia is at risk.

 

[Trausti]

Russia's oil and gas would be targeted and immediately done away with.

If Germany hadn't stupidly killed off its nuclear plants you might be right.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'd say the big difference is Russia ain't going for European dominance like Hitler did.

Does anyone really know what Putin's ultimate goals really are? We can only guess by his actions. Those are that he has taken Georgia then Crimea and now appears set to take at least part of Ukraine, if not all of it.

Have you been ignoring everyone of barbos' posts? Putin wants a buffer. Russia is a paranoid nation due to not getting over the Crimean War, among other things.

Russia's oil and gas would be targeted and immediately done away with.

I don't understand what is meant by this bit.

That'd be the 'Russia is never invading Europe' reason. I mentioned it because you juxtapositioned Hitler, who very much wanted all of Europe.

 

[skepticalbip]

I'd say the big difference is Russia ain't going for European dominance like Hitler did.

Does anyone really know what Putin's ultimate goals really are? We can only guess by his actions. Those are that he has taken Georgia then Crimea and now appears set to take at least part of Ukraine, if not all of it.

Have you been ignoring everyone of barbos' posts? Putin wants a buffer. Russia is a paranoid nation due to not getting over the Crimean War, among other things.

Barbos' posts remind me of a Trumster's posts. Anything their hero does is seen as absolutely necessary and for the ultimate good.

If Putin absorbs the current 'buffer states' into Russia then Russia will expand out to abut the NATO nations. How is that maintaining a buffer?

Russia's oil and gas would be targeted and immediately done away with.

I don't understand what is meant by this bit.

That'd be the 'Russia is never invading Europe' reason. I mentioned it because you juxtapositioned Hitler, who very much wanted all of Europe.

Ah, thanks. I missed that you were talking about a scenario where NATO went to war with Russia. I was just trying to understand Putin's intent.

ETA:
I juxtaposed Hitler only because Putin is using the same "excuse" Germany used for invading boarding countries during the start of his expansion. The "excuse" of protecting German speaking people in Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Poland was used to 'justify' taking over those countries.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

If Putin absorbs the current 'buffer states' into Russia then Russia will expand out to abut the NATO nations. How is that maintaining a buffer?

Exactomundo! It's just another land grab. In Putin's twisted psyche he actually believes he can incorporate the whole of Ukraine into Russia. I'm sure he has wet dreams to this end.

And it's worth reflecting on why he needs a buffer. How many countries have puppet states as buffers? The fact is the mob boss wants some territory around his empire. That's all. He wants to do business as business without having to worry about what's happening on the other side of the street. Sheesh!

I don't think sanctions will amount to a spit in the ocean, not in the short term anyway.

 

[steve_bank]

Now we apparently know Putin's intentions, annexing the Russian separatist regions.

 

[Ford]

Meanwhile, back at home, those patriotic Republicans will level shame at those Democrats sponsoring Ukrainian insurgents who are terrorizing the Russian people...
At this rate, Russia will be nibbling away at US territories and perhaps States, with the full blessing of the Republican Autocracy established in 2024....

Well to be fair, Alaska was part of Russia for a long time, and that deal was really shady. Many people in the US called it "Seward's Folly," and who is Vladimir Putin to disagree with Americanskis? Republicans will note that "since Democrats won't let us drill in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, at least our friends in Russia will be able to get to that oil!"

 

[SLD]

So now he has moved tanks into Eastern Ukraine. The world wonders if that’s as far as he goes. Is that the end of his face saving actions? Or does he push on to Kiev.

Maybe Russia should just buy those areas for him and therein lies the peace. In truth, I think Ukraine is better off without them. They won’t vote against continued Ukrainian ties with Western Europe and possible NATO integration. Then the rest of the Russian minority in Ukraine can decide whether they want to stay or leave.

 

[barbos]

I am shooting for "US is bad, and Russia has involuntary reaction to that"

What, like a nervous tic?

Like what you had during Cuban missile crisis. And really during whole cold war where you were running and squashing any indication of anti-capitalism protest around the world, including assassinating democratically elected leaders