How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[steve_bank]

Ukraine is Russia, it has never been independent country. It has always been part of Russia an/or Poland.
Their behavior for the last 30 and especially last 10 years is a proof that they are incapable to be independent.

From a brief survey of history it is more like Russia never really existed.

Russia agreed to Ukrainian independence and security in exchange for its nuclear weapons after the collapse of the Soviet Union. With maybe one or two exceptions the former Spvoet clent stes a=chose to along with a free Europe and the EU, and NATO. They all rejected Russia.

Putn is obsessed with an imagined glorious Soviet empire that was never very glorious. It never mt basic needs of the peole, and was brutal and authoritarian. Held together by milady force. I remember Poland and the Gadansk shipyard, Solidarity.

In contrast a NATO and EU as a voluntary association for the common good and support of rights.

Putin thought it would take a few weeks and here we are. From reporting in Europe there is growing support for a more direct involvement by NATO.

The suffering inflicted by Putin out of greed and personal glory is beyond words. In his own words the goal is the elimination of Ukrainian culture to be replaced by Russia,

I'd think considering theuffering Rudsia endured durng WWII woud nake Russia sympathetic, appaenty it is not an elemn of Rissian culture. Only brutality.

Right now I would supprt a full scale NATO mobilzation to push Russia out of Ukraine.

 

[barbos]

Ukraine is Russia, it has never been independent country. It has always been part of Russia an/or Poland.
Their behavior for the last 30 and especially last 10 years is a proof that they are incapable to be independent.

From a brief survey of history it is more like Russia never really existed.

Russia agreed to Ukrainian independence and security in exchange for its nuclear weapons after the collapse of the Soviet Union. With maybe one or two exceptions the former Spvoet clent stes a=chose to along with a free Europe and the EU, and NATO. They all rejected Russia.

Putn is obsessed with an imagined glorious Soviet empire that was never very glorious. It never mt basic needs of the peole, and was brutal and authoritarian. Held together by milady force. I remember Poland and the Gadansk shipyard, Solidarity.

In contrast a NATO and EU as a voluntary association for the common good and support of rights.

Putin thought it would take a few weeks and here we are. From reporting in Europe there is growing support for a more direct involvement by NATO.

The suffering inflicted by Putin out of greed and personal glory is beyond words. In his own words the goal is the elimination of Ukrainian culture to be replaced by Russia,

I'd think considering theuffering Rudsia endured durng WWII woud nake Russia sympathetic, appaenty it is not an elemn of Rissian culture. Only brutality.

Right now I would supprt a full scale NATO mobilzation to push Russia out of Ukraine.

Good summary of bullshit you get daily from MSM.

 

[barbos]

Ukraine is Russia, it has never been independent country. It has always been part of Russia an/or Poland.
Their behavior for the last 30 and especially last 10 years is a proof that they are incapable to be independent.

It was independent before the Russian assholes invaded.

Independent countries don't live on handouts from the countries they claim they are independent from.
Ukraine should never have been allowed to exist.

 

[barbos]

Famous chatroulete where ukrainian idiot proves that Ukraine is ..... Russia

 

[steve_bank]

The fact remains Russia has spent a lot of money and lives for nothing but Putin's sense of glory and power.

Even if Putin manages to destroy and control Ukraine Russia loses in the long run. It does nothing to improve the lives of Russians. NATO has been reinvigorated by the Russian aggression. Two nations who were neutral have joined NATO. Europe has reduced its dependence on Russian energy.

I have not seen numbers but I expect Russian tourism has dropped.

Putin is a poor leader. Perhaps as an analogy one of less able Roman empowers. Dipterous wars with poor military leadership.


As I said before, Russia has a population and workforce problem. No one wants to move to Russia to work except North Koreans. In contrast People want to come to the USAand Canada and Europe.

Why not Russia? Because it sucks. No freedom of speech, high corruption, no western personal freedoms, and no rule of law. No free press and no freedom of polical expression.

Putin is clinging to the old Soviet anti west paradigm instead of integrating with the world.

 

[barbos]

The fact remains Russia has spent a lot of money and lives for nothing but Putin's sense of glory and power.

You keep repeating that without any shred of evidence.

Even if Putin manages to destroy and control Ukraine Russia loses in the long run. It does nothing to improve the lives of Russians. NATO has been reinvigorated by the Russian aggression.

NATO will dissolve if Ukraine gets back to Russia.

Europe has reduced its dependence on Russian energy.

At the cost of ruining their economies.

Putin is a poor leader. Perhaps as an analogy one of less able Roman empowers. Dipterous wars with poor military leadership.

Putin is a great leader. Compared to what you have for sure.

As I said before, Russia has a population and workforce problem. No one wants to move to Russia to work except North Koreans. In contrast People want to come to the USAand Canada and Europe.

Hordes of people from Central Asia want to move to Russia.
Westerbers move to Russia too. Mostly for religious reasons, but some for economic reasons.
The west have the same demographic problems Russia has.

Why not Russia? Because it sucks. No freedom of speech, high corruption, no western personal freedoms, and no rule of law. No free press and no freedom of polical expression.

I have posted a number of youtubes where westerners who moved to Russia explain why they did so.
Most of them got tired of liberal crap, drugs/crime, LGBT, and need to work 3 jobs to afford any kind of living.
They are not overly political so freedom of the speech does not concern them. Most of them want normal life which they don't have in the West.
Corruption is something that is no longer visible in ordinary life. It obviously exists but it is couple of levels higher.
In any case, life is getting better in Russia, thanks to sanctions, we have more money now.

One of the guys moved to Russia with his russian wife and daughter. And he has shown his house in US and compared to what they bought in Russia. The house in US was huge and gorgeous, there is no question about that. But he had to work 3 jobs to have it. In Russia they have ordinary russian high rise apartment. but he plans eventually to build something similar to what they had in US.

Here is the guy, an ordinary, not religious guy

 

[aupmanyav]

You keep repeating this. Why would Nato want to continue the war? You keep making this MAGA assertion with no evidence.

My reading of the situation. You are not sending in your soldiers, you are sending in arms. This can go on (indefinitely). Ukraine bears the war loss and casualties. NATO is sitting pretty.

 

[aupmanyav]

Why? Would I need to ask YOU to continue fighting when someone breaks into your house, kills and kidnaps your children, rapes and tortures your wife and tells you to get out? Maybe you’d like to talk to them about it.
Such an idiotic stance you take, looking like a fool to placate your dictator.

I would not like to be cozy with my neighbor's enemy.

 

[barbos]

I would not like to be cozy with my neighbor's enemy.

What if they pay you (personally) tons of money?

 

[aupmanyav]

What if they pay you (personally) tons of money?

You mean buying enmity with my neighbor? No.

 

[Harry Bosch]

You keep repeating this. Why would Nato want to continue the war? You keep making this MAGA assertion with no evidence.

My reading of the situation. You are not sending in your soldiers, you are sending in arms. This can go on (indefinitely). Ukraine bears the war loss and casualties. NATO is sitting pretty.

It's true that ultimately Nato's purpose is to be so strong that Russia won't invade any of its members. And Russia's great difficulty in Ukraine makes it more unlikely (not zero though) that it won't invade any NATO countries. However, not sure if you are paying attention to politics in the west. Western politicians are getting killed due to the worsening economies (inflation) that is hurting our economies. If Russian soldiers were to return home, the stock markets in the west would increase 5% instantly. Secondly, it's a very dangerous situation for the world. The longer this goes on, the greater the risk that an accident could happen leading to WW3. No one wins in this situation.

 

[Harry Bosch]

The fact remains Russia has spent a lot of money and lives for nothing but Putin's sense of glory and power.

You keep repeating that without any shred of evidence.

I thought that this was an interesting response. Are you trying to say that Russia isn't losing any soldiers in Ukraine?

Even if Putin manages to destroy and control Ukraine Russia loses in the long run. It does nothing to improve the lives of Russians. NATO has been reinvigorated by the Russian aggression.

NATO will dissolve if Ukraine gets back to Russia.

?? This is delusional! Do you honestly think that if Russia conquers all of Ukraine that the rest of Europe will just give up and invite the Russian invaders? Honestly? Is that what is being spread in the Putler controlled media?

Europe has reduced its dependence on Russian energy.

At the cost of ruining their economies.

The war has hurt our economies. But we'll adjust and survive.

 

[Elixir]

Why? Would I need to ask YOU to continue fighting when someone breaks into your house, kills and kidnaps your children, rapes and tortures your wife and tells you to get out? Maybe you’d like to talk to them about it.
Such an idiotic stance you take, looking like a fool to placate your dictator.

I would not like to be cozy with my neighbor's enemy.

Then why are you saying someone else should do that?
In English it’s called HYPOCRISY. Look it up.

 

[steve_bank]

No evidence Barbos? We see it everyday in the news.

The fact remains that with NATO support a small Ukraine army with guts has fended off Russia. What we saw is that the Russian military is incompetent. Probably the result of years of corruption and politics.
Russia is doing to Ukraine what the Nazis did to Russia in WWII.

Putin was not able to run over Ukraine for yeas now, The on;y thing he can do is rain destruction on Ukraine from a distance. Utter brutality.

Bastogne at the Battle Of The Bulge comes to mind. Out numbered and isolated a small group of American soldiers held off he Nazi., Instead of bypassing Hitler obsessed with destroying the city. It delayed the Germans ling enough that Patton's army broke through.

Putin is an incompetent dictator obsessed on Ukraine. He has no way to back out, the only thing he can do is kill Ukrainian citizens.

 

[barbos]

The war has hurt our economies. But we'll adjust and survive.

Not war, sanctions. And sanction have been very good for Russia.
And don't speak for EU. They are not doing well at all.

No evidence Barbos? We see it everyday in the news.

Yes, no evidence. Your news are mostly lies.

 

[barbos]

I thought that this was an interesting response. Are you trying to say that Russia isn't losing any soldiers in Ukraine?

That's not what you said. You talked trash about Putin and Russia.

Russia does lose men, but a lot less than Ukrainian Regime.

 

[barbos]

?? This is delusional! Do you honestly think that if Russia conquers all of Ukraine that the rest of Europe will just give up and invite the Russian invaders?

NATO will be proven to be useless and people in NATO countries will see that.

 

[barbos]

Putin is an incompetent dictator obsessed on Ukraine. He has no way to back out, the only thing he can do is kill Ukrainian citizens.

I think he is pretty competent but it is true that Russia and he himself has no way back out. Russia has to finish Ukraine to stay independent. Russia can not allow that shit you do go unpunished. And if we need to kill ukrainian soldiers for that so be it. Their deaths are on you and ukro-regime you installed. Georgians were punished and learned their lesson, so will ukrainians, eventually.

 

[steve_bank]

Barbos and Putin are relics of the old Soviet Union and the Cold War. Most of the world has moved forward. China is still run by the Chinese Communist Party but communist in name on;y. China is fully integrated into the global economy and benefited from it.

China still speaks of the US as an adversary and rattles sabers in the South China Sea, but they are far more pragmatic than Russia. I believe the Chinese leadership does work to improve the lives of the Chinese people, unlike Putin who is all about personal glory and power.

Barbos and Putin as like the Soviets blame their troubles and ineptness on the west. It is alwys somebody else's fault.

No one made Putin invade Ukraine. NATO would never have attacked Russia.

Putin sees himself as in the line of the Russian Tsars, the view of an expat Russian historian who knew Putin.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Putin is an incompetent dictator obsessed on Ukraine. He has no way to back out, the only thing he can do is kill Ukrainian citizens.

I think he is pretty competent but it is true that Russia and he himself has no way back out. Russia has to finish Ukraine to stay independent. Russia can not allow that shit you do go unpunished. And if we need to kill ukrainian soldiers for that so be it. Their deaths are on you and ukro-regime you installed. Georgians were punished and learned their lesson, so will ukrainians, eventually.

Why does your country need to conquer Ukraine in order to stay independent?