How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

Ukraine on the collapse of the Soc vet Union gave up nuclear weapons in ex chge for guaranteed security.

They did not have nuclear weapons. And they returned them in exchange for not being sanctioned to death.

 

[Copernicus]

Ukraine on the collapse of the Soc vet Union gave up nuclear weapons in ex chge for guaranteed security.

They did not have nuclear weapons. And they returned them in exchange for not being sanctioned to death.

How could Ukraine return weapons, if they did not have them?

No, they voluntarily gave them up for a solemn pledge by the Russian Federation to respect their sovereignty and a commitment by the UK and the US to guarantee their security if that commitment were reneged on. It was reneged on. The US and UK responded appropriately. Because of Russian aggression building against Ukrainian sovereignty from Russia, the NATO alliance also got involved in defending Ukrainian sovereignty. Russia violated its own commitment when it invaded sovereign Ukrainian territory on the pretext of helping partisan groups within Ukraine's border. Russian aggression and Russian expansionism brought this mess on Russia itself.

 

[ZiprHead]

Was watching ukrainian opposition channel and found this.
It's about that Budapest memorandum the usual suspects like to point out.
Someone actually read it and made a discovery that it actually does not do anything good for Ukraine and in fact it actually
can be interpreted against Ukraine.
Basically that memorandum says that countries which signed it give assurances to not use nukes against Ukraine, that's basically all. That makes sense - Ukraine gave up nukes and countries promised to not use nukes against Ukraine in exchange. (Ukraine did not actually have nukes to give up but let's ignore that)
And even that is not 100% because there is a loophole - if Ukraine allies itself with nuclear country (US) and attacks somebody who has nukes (Russia) then memorandum does not apply.
Basically Russia can use nukes in Ukraine.

You know what else he says?

Following the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine Shariy stated: “This war is Russia's aggression and invasion against the Ukrainian people.”<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Shariy#cite_note-elindependiente.com-15"><span>[</span>14<span>]</span></a>

Belen Carreno and Andrei Khalip claim that Shariy supported a Kremlin assertion that Ukraine is a "western colony" dominated with anti-Russian "neo-Nazis", which has been used by Russia to justify its 2022 invasion of Ukraine.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Shariy#cite_note-reuters-42"><span>[</span>41<span>]</span></a> But on 5 October 2022 the judge of the National High Court Santiago Pedraz closed the consideration of the extradition, since Ukraine did not provide proper evidence and arguments for anti-Ukrainian activities.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Shariy#cite_note-Gálvez-19"><span>[</span>18<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Shariy#cite_note-72"><span>[</span>69<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Shariy#cite_note-elmundo.es-22"><span>[</span>21<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Shariy#cite_note-Iustel-20"><span>[</span>19<span>]</span></a>

In May 2023, Shariy apologized for arguing for good neighborly relations with Russia in his videos: "I was extremely wrong for 8 years, when I tried to tell and justify that you can live normally with these... [It was wrong to say that Russia] will not absorb you, that they are reasonable. It was, of course, a mistake. It's a 100 percent mistake."<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Shariy#cite_note-73"><span>[</span>70<span>]</span></a>

 

[steve_bank]

Russia is a serous economic threat to the American auto maker.

russian ev - Google Search

California versus Russian GDP. California has about 40 million people.

(Current US Dollars). Sources include: World Bank, United Nations. Nominal (current) Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of Russia is $2,240,420,000,000 (USD) as of 2022. Real GDP (constant, inflation adjusted) of the Russian Federation reached $1,391,070,000,000 in 2022.

New PPIC report illustrated how California's economy is a global powerhouse, here are some of the takeaways: “In 2023, California's GDP was about $3.9 trillion, comprising 14% of national GDP ($27.7 trillion).” “California's economy ranks 5th internationally, behind the US, China, Germany, and Japan.3 days ago

While I do not like the Chinese political system, the Chinese people get a lot of credit for in a shirt period transformed China from a backwards poor failed state to a modern global economy. They are industrious, hard working, and creative.

Contrast with Russia which is stagnant. Putin insists on standing apart from the world economy inched of working with the western systems as a partner.


China has a long history going back to ancient times. Technology in the ancient world, manufacturing technology even mass production.

The Russian revolution got rid of the educated monarchy, aristocracy, and the middle class that made things go and kept the peasants. Maybe Russia ssimply lacks the cultual DNA and hstory to do what China did.

 

[barbos]

You know what else he says?

Yes, his views evolved.

 

[Henry-Finland]

This video:
- 1710 Russian casualties in one day.
- VIDEO: Russian soldiers tell how their drunk commander caused 90% of deaths of the personnel
The commander tries now to eliminate the rest of his troops as they do not obey the drunken commander.
- The Akhmat commander tells how they have won the war against NATO.
- Russians try everything before the mud season.
- New Ukrainian anti-drone weapons
- Oil company Yukos, the former vice-president “jumped out of a window”…

- Year 1994: Clinton is asked “if he would be willing to support Ukraine’s integrity if Russia seized Crimea after UA gave up its nuclear arsenal.
(Do you guess the answer? Did he answer?)

-Etc .etc.

 

[SLD]

The video looks homemade.

And your point is?
It's argentinian citizen who was refused entrance into Estonia on the basis that she was a student in russian university.
She was detained, lost money on the ticket to the bus and was kicked out back to Russia.
Estonian border officers were rude obnoxious and out of control.

Damn! You should attack them for such rudeness. Sounds like a good pretext for war.

That's not out plan. Our plan is to wait until they die/emigrate out.

Russians are the ones dying. In droves. Your country is fucked up, dude.

Yes, your propaganda says that ukrainian conscripts kidnapped from the street kills russian volunteer army with 1 year training in droves.

680,000 casualties so far, over 118,000 KIA. Greatest loss of Russians since the end of WWII.

Actually not so many Russians, because Putin tries to put this on other ethnicities. Now he’s asking for North Korean personnel. Insane.

Your military sucks. The latest reports are of a drunk Russian commander getting so many killed he decided to send them all to their deaths so they wouldn’t complain. Your military has a bunch of drunk commanders. At some point you have to be concerned that they will turn on their masters.

 

[TV and credit cards]

.

The video looks homemade.

And your point is?
It's argentinian citizen who was refused entrance into Estonia on the basis that she was a student in russian university.
She was detained, lost money on the ticket to the bus and was kicked out back to Russia.
Estonian border officers were rude obnoxious and out of control.

Damn! You should attack them for such rudeness. Sounds like a good pretext for war.

That's not out plan. Our plan is to wait until they die/emigrate out.

Russians are the ones dying. In droves. Your country is fucked up, dude.

Yes, your propaganda says that ukrainian conscripts kidnapped from the street kills russian volunteer army with 1 year training in droves.

680,000 casualties so far, over 118,000 KIA. Greatest loss of Russians since the end of WWII.

Actually not so many Russians, because Putin tries to put this on other ethnicities. Now he’s asking for North Korean personnel. Insane.

Your military sucks. The latest reports are of a drunk Russian commander getting so many killed he decided to send them all to their deaths so they wouldn’t complain. Your military has a bunch of drunk commanders. At some point you have to be concerned that they will turn on their masters.

They're likely drunk too. You'd have to be to rush headlong into certain death.

 

[bilby]

While I do not like the Chinese political system, the Chinese people get a lot of credit for in a shirt period transformed China from a backwards poor failed state to a modern global economy. They are industrious, hard working, and creative.

Sure, but there's only so much wealth you can get from laundering shirts, so they had to diversify.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Ukraine on the collapse of the Soc vet Union gave up nuclear weapons in ex chge for guaranteed security.

They did not have nuclear weapons. And they returned them in exchange for not being sanctioned to death.

There would be a lot more Russian soldiers and Ukrainians alive today if they had kept their nukes.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Moldova move a little closer to EU membership in spite of Russian meddling. Fugitive oligarch Elon Musk Ilan Shor tried to buy enough votes to sway the referendum but it was not enough. Moldova will now write into its constitution, EU accession as its goal.
President Maia Sandu looks poised to be reelected as president this next month.
Fuck you Russia.

 

[steve_bank]

Moldova move a little closer to EU membership in spite of Russian meddling. Fugitive oligarch Elon Musk Ilan Shor tried to buy enough votes to sway the referendum but it was not enough. Moldova will now write into its constitution, EU accession as its goal.
President Maia Sandu looks poised to be reelected as president this next month.
Fuck you Russia.

I listened to he several times in interviews. Seems reparable. Small Moldova telling Russia to fuck off.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[steve_bank]

Moldova move a little closer to EU membership in spite of Russian meddling. Fugitive oligarch Elon Musk Ilan Shor tried to buy enough votes to sway the referendum but it was not enough. Moldova will now write into its constitution, EU accession as its goal.
President Maia Sandu looks poised to be reelected as president this next month.
Fuck you Russia.

I listened to he several times in interviews. Seems reparable. Small Moldova telling Russia to fuck off.

I meant 'seems remarkable'.

 

[barbos]

680,000 casualties so far, over 118,000 KIA. Greatest loss of Russians since the end of WWII.

According to regime in Kiev which would never lie.

Now he’s asking for North Korean personnel. Insane.

According to regime in Kiev which would never lie.

 

[barbos]

Moldova move a little closer to EU membership in spite of Russian meddling. Fugitive oligarch Elon Musk Ilan Shor tried to buy enough votes to sway the referendum but it was not enough. Moldova will now write into its constitution, EU accession as its goal.
President Maia Sandu looks poised to be reelected as president this next month.
Fuck you Russia.

No, they did not. Expectation was to get 80%, instead they got 50.5 and even that number was achieved by ...... huge moldavan diasporas in the west which was more than likely fake votes. It is a fiasco.

 

[barbos]

Moldova move a little closer to EU membership in spite of Russian meddling. Fugitive oligarch Elon Musk Ilan Shor tried to buy enough votes to sway the referendum but it was not enough. Moldova will now write into its constitution, EU accession as its goal.
President Maia Sandu looks poised to be reelected as president this next month.
Fuck you Russia.

I listened to he several times in interviews. Seems reparable. Small Moldova telling Russia to fuck off.

Actually they said that to Sandu. She basically confirmed that by blaming poor results on Russia.

 

[barbos]

Your military sucks.

US general Christopher G. Cavoli seems to disagree with you.
Please note that he is a general and acting one at that, and he is a commander of NATO forces in Europe.

 

[barbos]

Ukraine on the collapse of the Soc vet Union gave up nuclear weapons in ex chge for guaranteed security.

They did not have nuclear weapons. And they returned them in exchange for not being sanctioned to death.

There would be a lot more Russian soldiers and Ukrainians alive today if they had kept their nukes.

These nukes were never theirs. They were soviet (russian) nukes which happened to be stationed in Ukraine (among other republics) And if by some miracle Ukraine were able to keep them then there would have been shitload of dead New Yorkers.

 

[Copernicus]

Ukraine on the collapse of the Soc vet Union gave up nuclear weapons in ex chge for guaranteed security.

They did not have nuclear weapons. And they returned them in exchange for not being sanctioned to death.

There would be a lot more Russian soldiers and Ukrainians alive today if they had kept their nukes.

These nukes were never theirs. They were soviet (russian) nukes which happened to be stationed in Ukraine (among other republics) And if by some miracle Ukraine were able to keep them then there would have been shit load of dead New Yorkers.

In Soviet mythological lore, all of the Soviet Socialist Republics were equal, so none of them really owned the nuclear weapons. They were held collectively by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. When the Soviet Union collapsed, those weapons within sovereign boundaries of the republics became their property, not Russia's. The US and its allies wanted the Russian Federation to inherit all of those weapons, so the agreement was for Ukraine to voluntarily give them up in exchange for a pledge to recognize Ukrainian independent sovereignty. Russia took the weapons and then failed to abide by its side of the agreement. It was as simple as that. If Ukraine had retained them, Russia would not have dared to invade Ukrainian territory.

In reality, however, the Soviet Union was always a sham. It was just a reconstituted version of the old Russian Empire, with Russians treated as the real masters within its boundaries. So revanchists like barbos feel entitled to ownership not just of the nuclear weapons, but the actual occupied territories of the former Russo-Soviet empire.