How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Harry Bosch]

The difference is that Barbos wants Russia to conquer Ukraine. Kill its leaders. Control its government. Eliminate its military. Steal its resources. Permanently steal its land. Denazify it. We all know what that means.

How is that different from what the US government was doing in Iraq in 2003?
Tom

I was against the war. But I didn’t know any Americans who wanted colonize Iraq.

 

[TomC]

The difference is that Barbos wants Russia to conquer Ukraine. Kill its leaders. Control its government. Eliminate its military. Steal its resources. Permanently steal its land. Denazify it. We all know what that means.

How is that different from what the US government was doing in Iraq in 2003?
Tom

I was against the war. But I didn’t know any Americans who wanted colonize Iraq.

What do you think they were doing?
Tom

 

[bilby]

The reality of a a 'special military operation' that was supposed to take weeks turning into years with no end in sight.

It all seems reminiscent of the Schlieffen Plan. Destroy the enemy and sieze his capital city in a short, decisive war.

But it didn't work. And now you are fighting in static defences for years, with no route to victory, and no way to abandon the war. Which you will eventually lose, because your enemy has access to US materiel, and the prospect that one day they might even be joined as full allies by the US military. If the Americans can get over their pointless and stubborn isolationist tendencies.

 

[steve_bank]

The difference is that Barbos wants Russia to conquer Ukraine. Kill its leaders. Control its government. Eliminate its military. Steal its resources. Permanently steal its land. Denazify it. We all know what that means.

How is that different from what the US government was doing in Iraq in 2003?
Tom

I was against the war. But I didn’t know any Americans who wanted colonize Iraq.

What do you think they were doing?
Tom

We were caught up in a wave of patriotism starting with 9/11.

In the run up to the war there was little in the way of opposition in the media or from congress.

Plus what turned out to be false information on Iraq's WMDs.

I set an email to the WH opposing the invasion of Iraq.

In the first Iraq war Bush Sr decided not to go into Iraq because the results of removing Hussein were unpredictable.

The stated reasons I remember for the war were Hussein's WMDs and terrorist training camps in Iraq were threats to the USA.

 

[TomC]

In the first Iraq war Bush Sr decided not to go into Iraq because the results of removing Hussein were unpredictable.

Bush had been using Hussein to attack Iran.

And when Bush was preparing to oust Hussein and replace him with someone who could finish the job, a US election interfered.

Bush was losing here to Clinton, who's election strategy was "It's the economy, stupid."
And Clinton won.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Twice as part of coalitions we easily defeated the Iraq army and air force.

Given Russian performance in Ukraine a western NATO coalition would easily defeat Russia in a full scale war.

Something way back I read Russian combat pilots get limted flight time forr training to fuel issues.

Tanks and jets run on fuel. In a full scale war one of the first things would be to destroy Russian fuel supplies.

It's not just fuel, running a military jet is expensive in parts and maintenance, also.

And Ukraine has very limited deep strike capability. In a full scale war there would be a lot of Tomahawks taking out Russian logistics.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Something way back I read Russian combat pilots get limted flight time forr training to fuel issues.

Can they fuel up with vodka instead? Plenty of that going around in Vodkastan. Adolph Putin even has his own brand. The czars controlled the production and sale of vodka for centuries. It made them fabulously wealthy because the Russian population lives on the stuff. When the communists took over they continued the practice and do to this day. They're not commies anymore, just gangsters. What will a bottle of Cheato's vodka look like? Probably be orange.

Vodka can't be used as fuel, too much water. It could be distilled to something that could be used as fuel for vehicles designed for it. Ordinary vehicle engines will be damaged by it, though.

 

[bilby]

Something way back I read Russian combat pilots get limted flight time forr training to fuel issues.

Can they fuel up with vodka instead? Plenty of that going around in Vodkastan. Adolph Putin even has his own brand. The czars controlled the production and sale of vodka for centuries. It made them fabulously wealthy because the Russian population lives on the stuff. When the communists took over they continued the practice and do to this day. They're not commies anymore, just gangsters. What will a bottle of Cheato's vodka look like? Probably be orange.

Vodka can't be used as fuel, too much water. It could be distilled to something that could be used as fuel for vehicles designed for it. Ordinary vehicle engines will be damaged by it, though.

Vodka (and other drinkable sprit) is typically distilled to around 96% ethanol at the distillery, and then diluted to the ~40% that is more tolerable to drink.

Concentrations of ethanol above 40% can cause acute, painful, and rapid damage to the mouth and oesophagus, so people tend not to gravitate towards drinking more concentrated neat spirits.

Concentrations above 96% cannot be resched by distillation alone, as at that temperature, water and ethanol are azeotropic; To reach higher concentrations, typically some methanol needs to be added to the mix, which is no big deal for fuel, but is a major problem for drinkers.

 

[TomC]

Concentrations of ethanol above 40% can cause acute, painful, and rapid damage to the mouth and oesophagus, so people tend not to gravitate towards drinking more concentrated neat spirits.

Perhaps I am telling y'all more about my checkered past than you want to know, but

Everclear, a 190 proof alcohol product available in stores, didn't have that effect on me.
I'm not going into the rest of the story, because I don't remember much of it. The bits and pieces I remember, augmented by the police report, are still none of your business.
Tom

 

[bilby]

Everclear, a 190 proof alcohol product available in stores, didn't have that effect on me.

Everclear is basically what any distilled drinking spirit is when it comes out of the still, before it has been diluted and flavoured. Mix Everclear with a bit more than its own volume in water, put it in an oak keg, and wait a few years, and it is whisky. Mix in the water and some juniper (and other extracts to taste) and it's gin. Mix in the water alone, and it's vodka.

Drink it, and it's vile.

Of course you can drink it. But lots of people find it unpleasant to do so due to the acute effects, and those who do not, may well find it unpleasant to do so due to the longer term effects, which may well include (but are unlikely to be limited to) both amnesia and police involvement.

 

[Elixir]

ETA ~And in case nobody noticed, Trump is currently favored to win a victory in the USA.
We have not changed much since 2002.~

Favored? By betting “markets”.
Polls are even. The truth will hopefully be told but it won’t be a red wave and it won’t be tied.

 

[SLD]

The difference is that Barbos wants Russia to conquer Ukraine. Kill its leaders. Control its government. Eliminate its military. Steal its resources. Permanently steal its land. Denazify it. We all know what that means.

How is that different from what the US government was doing in Iraq in 2003?
Tom

I was against the war. But I didn’t know any Americans who wanted colonize Iraq.

What do you think they were doing?
Tom

The invasion was certainly not an attempt to colonize Iraq. If it were we would have done so, or at least tried.

The invasion was W.’s stupid miscalculation that the Gulf War was unfinished by his father, and that was the cause of his father’s defeat in 1992. Many wars are started like that. Just plain stupid. I’m still pissed about it.

The Ukraine invasion is an undeniable attempt to colonize the country. Putin has explicitly said so. He’s openly denied that Ukraine is a country. It’s part of Russia. He wants to incorporate it into his state.

 

[robnisch]

Something way back I read Russian combat pilots get limted flight time forr training to fuel issues.

Can they fuel up with vodka instead? Plenty of that going around in Vodkastan. Adolph Putin even has his own brand. The czars controlled the production and sale of vodka for centuries. It made them fabulously wealthy because the Russian population lives on the stuff. When the communists took over they continued the practice and do to this day. They're not commies anymore, just gangsters. What will a bottle of Cheato's vodka look like? Probably be orange.

Vodka can't be used as fuel, too much water. It could be distilled to something that could be used as fuel for vehicles designed for it. Ordinary vehicle engines will be damaged by it, though.

Vodka (and other drinkable sprit) is typically distilled to around 96% ethanol at the distillery, and then diluted to the ~40% that is more tolerable to drink.

Concentrations of ethanol above 40% can cause acute, painful, and rapid damage to the mouth and oesophagus, so people tend not to gravitate towards drinking more concentrated neat spirits.

Concentrations above 96% cannot be resched by distillation alone, as at that temperature, water and ethanol are azeotropic; To reach higher concentrations, typically some methanol needs to be added to the mix, which is no big deal for fuel, but is a major problem for drinkers.

If I remember, the Soviet military used ethanol and water as an antifreeze in their trucks. And, had trouble with the soldiers stealing it from the motor pool.

 

[steve_bank]

In the first Iraq war Bush Sr decided not to go into Iraq because the results of removing Hussein were unpredictable.

Bush had been using Hussein to attack Iran.

And when Bush was preparing to oust Hussein and replace him with someone who could finish the job, a US election interfered.

Bush was losing here to Clinton, who's election strategy was "It's the economy, stupid."
And Clinton won.
Tom

I disagree. Schwarzkopf was angry that Bush ended the war too quickly allowing the Iraq army to retreat back to Iraq.

Videos of dead burned Iraqi bodies on the road back to Iraq caused calls to end the war.

Schwarzkopf wanted to destroy the Iraq army.

Bush Sr was right. When we removed Hussein Iraq fell into factional fighting and it allowed Iran's influence to spread into Iraq.

GWB famously declared victory and the fighting was over.

Topple the Iran theocracy and who knows what will happen. The Republican Guard is an entity unto itself.

Keep in mind we iinterfered with a democratic Iranian government because we thought they might nationalize the oil. That led to a brutal Shah Of Iran , to the revolution, and to Iran today.


We never seem to lerarn.

 

[barbos]

The Ukraine invasion is an undeniable attempt to colonize the country. Putin has explicitly said so.

No, it was not. No he did not.

He’s openly denied that Ukraine is a country. It’s part of Russia. He wants to incorporate it into his state.

He openly denied ukro-nazi version of Ukrainian History.
And he does not (unfortunately) want to to incorporate "Ukraine" into Russia. At best he wants to get back russian part of "Ukraine" back to Russia.
I personally think Ukraine is not a country and should be all occupied and incorporated back into Russia.

 

[steve_bank]

I know Barbos in his heart of hearts would rather be over here in the good old USA instead of Russia,.

10,000 or more North Korean troops probably in Russia to stay. They will marry Russian women and settle in Russia.

Diversity comes to Russia.

 

[ZiprHead]

Everclear, a 190 proof alcohol product available in stores, didn't have that effect on me.

Everclear is basically what any distilled drinking spirit is when it comes out of the still, before it has been diluted and flavoured. Mix Everclear with a bit more than its own volume in water, put it in an oak keg, and wait a few years, and it is whisky. Mix in the water and some juniper (and other extracts to taste) and it's gin. Mix in the water alone, and it's vodka.

Drink it, and it's vile.

Of course you can drink it. But lots of people find it unpleasant to do so due to the acute effects, and those who do not, may well find it unpleasant to do so due to the longer term effects, which may well include (but are unlikely to be limited to) both amnesia and police involvement.

I knew a guy here, passed away now, who would spend winter at his property in Arkansas. Every year when he came back he would bring fifty gallons of moonshine with him. I like the taste, but as we all know it packs a wallop.

 

[ZiprHead]

ETA ~And in case nobody noticed, Trump is currently favored to win a victory in the USA.
We have not changed much since 2002.~

Favored? By betting “markets”.
Polls are even. The truth will hopefully be told but it won’t be a red wave and it won’t be tied.

Polls are being manipulated, and the betting markets more so.

 

[ZiprHead]

The Ukraine invasion is an undeniable attempt to colonize the country. Putin has explicitly said so.

No, it was not. No he did not.

He’s openly denied that Ukraine is a country. It’s part of Russia. He wants to incorporate it into his state.

He openly denied ukro-nazi version of Ukrainian History.
And he does not (unfortunately) want to to incorporate "Ukraine" into Russia. At best he wants to get back russian part of "Ukraine" back to Russia.
I personally think Ukraine is not a country and should be all occupied and incorporated back into Russia.

It not yours. Go home, and stop acting like Nazis.

 

[barbos]

The Ukraine invasion is an undeniable attempt to colonize the country. Putin has explicitly said so.

No, it was not. No he did not.

He’s openly denied that Ukraine is a country. It’s part of Russia. He wants to incorporate it into his state.

He openly denied ukro-nazi version of Ukrainian History.
And he does not (unfortunately) want to to incorporate "Ukraine" into Russia. At best he wants to get back russian part of "Ukraine" back to Russia.
I personally think Ukraine is not a country and should be all occupied and incorporated back into Russia.

It not yours. Go home, and stop acting like Nazis.

No, it's ours and you stop acting like Nazis.