How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[lpetrich]

Seva on Twitter: "protests across 53 russian cities, more than 1700 people detained tonight. the regime did not bother with counter-protests. I wonder if Putin underestimated just how unpopular this would be" / Twitter

Congresswoman Cori Bush on Twitter: "— My full statement on the Russian invasion of Ukraine: ..." / Twitter

— My full statement on the Russian invasion of Ukraine:

I condemn in the strongest terms Vladimir Putin’s catastrophic and murderous invasion of Ukraine, a flagrant violation of international law. My heart is with the Ukrainian people whose lives are now in danger, whose communities are now under attack, and whose future is now uncertain. I also stand in solidarity with the brave Russian anti-war protestors who are standing up against Putin’s tyranny. I implore our international partners to collectively commit to a negotiated diplomatic solution. Diplomacy, at all levels, is not in and of itself the solution. However, without diplomacy, the possibility of ending the violence and saving lives is diminished.

We are a country that has much to learn from the counterproductive and inhumane 20-year War on Terror that has led to more devastation than stability. We must focus on how we can use our power to aid and protect the most vulnerable. We cannot rely on the same tools of aggression and expect democracy and human rights to prevail.

We must impose swift sanctions targeted at Putin’s oligarchs, who have made the Russian economy one of the most unequal in the world, as well as the Russian military. Additionally, I call on the Biden administration to immediately seize assets in the United States belonging to Putin and the Russian oligarchy.

I have long opposed mass, broad-based sanctions that would cause grave, deadly harm to civilians for the decisions of a corrupt oligarchy – and Russia is no different. Broad-based sanctions would not only be ineffective, but would also condemn a generation of Russians into poverty and mass suffering.

We must support the brave human rights defenders in Russia and Ukraine because our hope for lasting peace rests with those who resist tyranny everywhere that it exists.

Although I think that military force is necessary to counter military force, I think that she has some good points on what kinds of sanctions to impose. I remember AOC in a town hall in late 2019 saying how she likes the Magnitsky Act because it's about sanctions that target Russian oligarchs.

 

[ZiprHead]

You people keep dodging my posts and keep going in circles repeating the same garbage over and over. I am getting more and more convinced that "invasion" was a right desision.

Wow, I'm glad you're back. I figured you were out spreading your bullshit to the Russian people protesting the invasion and war.

But here you are spreading it here.

 

[Derec]

You are suggesting something like the mujahideen which is likely.

Ukraine needs their version of him:

 

[ZiprHead]

Lpetrich, just because Trump was bad does not make Biden strong on Russia. Sanctions are weak sauce in light of the massive invasion we are witnessing. There needs to be stronger measures, such as air support.

US has been weak on Russia for a decade and a half. When Putin invaded Georgia, Bush let him. When he invaded Korea Crimea and made himself comfortable in Syria, Obama/Biden let him. That appeasement only emboldened him.

So what should Biden do? What should bush have done?

 

[lpetrich]

US has been weak on Russia for a decade and a half. When Putin invaded Georgia, Bush let him. When he invaded Korea Crimea and made himself comfortable in Syria, Obama/Biden let him. That appeasement only emboldened him.

What would you have preferred? Starting World War III?

 

[Copernicus]

US has been weak on Russia for a decade and a half. When Putin invaded Georgia, Bush let him. When he invaded Korea Crimea and made himself comfortable in Syria, Obama/Biden let him. That appeasement only emboldened him.

What would you have preferred? Starting World War III?

Notice that he criticized Bush and Obama. He forgot whats-his-name--the one who came after Obama and before Biden. The guy says that none of this would have happened, if people had reelected him. He simply would have called his buddy and asked how he could help convince the Ukrainians to stop making trouble.

 

[ZiprHead]

Vladimir Putin appears to threaten nuclear strikes if West launches reprisal attacks

Russian president warns that any attempt to interfere in Ukraine conflict will provoke a response ‘never seen in history’

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[barbos]

You people keep dodging my posts and keep going in circles repeating the same garbage over and over. I am getting more and more convinced that "invasion" was a right desision.

Putin's argument is hard to make sense of. "Ukrainians are our Russian brothers so it is Russia's duty to kill them."

That's not his argument.
His argument is essentiually "Ukrainians are our Russian brothers and no "western" machinations and meddling can change that"

I find that remarkable that Zelensky in his "Let's talk about it" speech used the same argument "We are brothers and let's talk it over"

Well, we (russians) were not getting the same impression from their prior actions and speeches to say the least. Cutting water to brothers, burning alive bunch of brothers in Odessa. No, we are not getting the same impression. I am getting impression of younger brother who has been drunk for 8 years suddenly realizing that older brother is about to beat some senses into him.


And before getting back into circle, no we are not brothers with small minority of ukrainians who did all of that. We merely disappointed in our Ukrainians brothers who got brainwashed by these ideas.

 

[lpetrich]

Maria Butina's National Prayer Breakfast Host Was a Chick-fil-A Executive - TYT.com - Nov 24, 2021 - "Despite Focus on NRA's Russian Ties, Butina's Handler Had Family Connections Long Before"

GOP leaders largely condemn Putin over Ukraine attack, isolating Trump in apparent praise - The Washington Post - "The crisis showcases competing impulses within the Republican Party in a test for democracy globally"

Leading Republicans on Thursday assailed Russia for plunging Europe into its first major land war in decades — isolating former president Donald Trump, the de facto standard-bearer of their party, in his praise for the country’s authoritarian leader.

From Capitol Hill to the campaign trail, prominent GOP voices, including some close Trump loyalists, vowed that Russian President Vladimir Putin would pay a severe price for ordering a military offensive against Ukraine, even as the party sought to blame President Biden for the crisis. Meanwhile, Republican leaders strained to articulate an alternative policy to counter Russia’s revanchist campaign — at once insisting on more severe measures and opposing the deployment of U.S. forces, which Biden has said is not an option.

The crosscurrents point to the hurdles Republicans face in staking out a position against foreign adversaries that include not just Russia but also China as they contend with the former president’s admiration for strongmen and an ascendant wing within their party that disfavors foreign intervention.

It's their mess and they should clean it up. They lined up behind Trump and they should accept that they backed a shameless Putin-lover.

Putin’s Ukraine invasion open Kremlin’s dark endgame in region - The Washington Post

His actions reflect a man steeped in Soviet geopolitics and traditional Russian Orthodox conservatism, fired with an almost spiritual view of his historical mission to transform his vast nation. At home, that has come with increasing repression — with his government removing opponents, quashing dissent, and hobbling Internet and press freedom with ever more vigor as his government ages.

Putin may be betting that his forces can take control of the bulk of Ukraine without significant urban fighting that could leave thousands of civilians dead. Already, his military has struck dozens of Ukrainian military targets across the country and crossed the Ukrainian border with relative ease. Zelensky said Thursday that 137 Ukrainian citizens had died in the hostilities so far. Russia did not give casualty figures, but the United Kingdom said there were “heavy casualties” on both sides.

Ukraine's leadership is now firmly pro-Western, and some of them talk about joining NATO. Thus producing what he gripes about so much.

How Putin intends to replace the leadership with a group of pro-Russian Ukrainians is unclear. But U.S. intelligence has suggested as much and he signaled his possible intention to do so in his speech Thursday, when he vowed to “denazify” Ukraine and hold accountable those responsible for Ukraine’s “crimes.” He talked of a new Ukraine that can turn the page on its relationship with Russia.

While Putin said Russia does not intend to occupy Ukrainian territory, he strongly suggested that his aim was to elevate authorities allied with Moscow and possibly carve up the country using referendums similar to the one the Kremlin organized in Crimea in 2014.

Dividing the nation into a pro-Russian half and an anti-Russian half. But the anti-Russian half will likely ally itself with NATO *very* quickly.

One of the pretexts Putin cited — the need to “denazify” Ukraine’s leadership and save the people from the Western governments that had taken them hostage — horrified many Russian liberals. It risks leaving Putin a global pariah isolated from all but the handful of autocrats he has cultivated. On Wednesday, several antiwar protests broke out across Russia, but security forces in many cases detained demonstrators.

 

[ZiprHead]

You are suggesting something like the mujahideen which is likely.

Ukraine needs their version of him:

WOLVERINES!!! Please, continue on with your fantasy.

 

[barbos]

Fresh anecdodes on the topic.
But first some background to it.
Popular chant during nazi coup in 2014 was "Moskalyaku na gilyaku!" (Ukrainian-trumper variant of hang Mike Pence, but way more popular throughout history)
Which means "hang russians!" Moskal is a derogatory term for a russian, it literally means person from Moscow.

So here is a fresh anecdote:
Russian soldier in Ukraine politely asks local ukrainian "I am a moskal, how can I get to gilyaka?"

 

[Jayjay]

Same with Cuba. I believe part of the agreement that ended the Cuban Crisis was an agreement not to invade Cuba.

In exchange for USSR taking nukes out of Cuba. So Putin offers the same deal. What's your problem?

What are you talking about? Russia hasn't offered to take nukes out of anywhere. And is in fact taking steps to move nuclear weapons to Belarus. Nobody is even threatening to invade Russia so the point is completely moot.

 

[barbos]

Same with Cuba. I believe part of the agreement that ended the Cuban Crisis was an agreement not to invade Cuba.

In exchange for USSR taking nukes out of Cuba. So Putin offers the same deal. What's your problem?

What are you talking about? Russia hasn't offered to take nukes out of anywhere. And is in fact taking steps to move nuclear weapons to Belarus. Nobody is even threatening to invade Russia so the point is completely moot.

That's cute. You pretending you don't understand my post. Very cute.

So, are you going to comment on post about saakashvili?

 

[skepticalbip]

You people keep dodging my posts and keep going in circles repeating the same garbage over and over. I am getting more and more convinced that "invasion" was a right desision.

Putin's argument is hard to make sense of. "Ukrainians are our Russian brothers so it is Russia's duty to kill them."

That's not his argument.
His argument is essentiually "Ukrainians are our Russian brothers and no "western" machinations and meddling can change that"

I find that remarkable that Zelensky in his "Let's talk about it" speech used the same argument "We are brothers and let's talk it over"

Well, we (russians) were not getting the same impression from their prior actions and speeches to say the least. Cutting water to brothers, burning alive bunch of brothers in Odessa. No, we are not getting the same impression. I am getting impression of younger brother who has been drunk for 8 years suddenly realizing that older brother is about to beat some senses into him.


And before getting back into circle, no we are not brothers with small minority of ukrainians who did all of that. We merely disappointed in our Ukrainians brothers who got brainwashed by these ideas.

Exactly. "They are our Russian brothers so it is Russia's duty to invade and kill them since they aren't thinking the way I want them to."

 

[steve_bank]

For a long time we see daily reports of global tradgedy and catastrophe in the news. I have become desensitzed.

That being said, I feel for the Ukrainians. They are facing eradication as a people and culture. I am starting to tink maybe NATO shoud have responded. Are we going down the path of appeasement?

Putin said he is going to "de Nazify Ukraine'. It is not hard to imagine what that will mean.

Isn't the President of Ukraine Jewish himself? Hard to de-Nazify a Jew i would have thought.

I don't know. Jews were not well thought of in Soviet Russia. From analysis I listened to while China and Russia have learned to play nice with each other, Russia has an anti iChinese 'yellow peril' bias against Chinese.

There will probably be a pogrom in Ukraine rounding up anyone deemed not inline with Russia.

Back in the 90s on a visit to Israel Putin made a plea for Russian Jews who fled to return to Russia. He claimed they were still part of Russia.

Russia has a workforce and birth rate problem, other than North Koreans no one wants to immigrate to Russia. It has been reported Russia has a health-nutrition problem due to lack of food variety. Overall health is said to be poor.

 

[barbos]

You people keep dodging my posts and keep going in circles repeating the same garbage over and over. I am getting more and more convinced that "invasion" was a right desision.

Putin's argument is hard to make sense of. "Ukrainians are our Russian brothers so it is Russia's duty to kill them."

That's not his argument.
His argument is essentiually "Ukrainians are our Russian brothers and no "western" machinations and meddling can change that"

I find that remarkable that Zelensky in his "Let's talk about it" speech used the same argument "We are brothers and let's talk it over"

Well, we (russians) were not getting the same impression from their prior actions and speeches to say the least. Cutting water to brothers, burning alive bunch of brothers in Odessa. No, we are not getting the same impression. I am getting impression of younger brother who has been drunk for 8 years suddenly realizing that older brother is about to beat some senses into him.


And before getting back into circle, no we are not brothers with small minority of ukrainians who did all of that. We merely disappointed in our Ukrainians brothers who got brainwashed by these ideas.

Exactly. "They are our Russian brothers so it is Russia's duty to invade and kill them since they aren't thinking the way I want them to."

I am not getting where you are getting with that. Sorry.
Official goal of the operation is denazification of Ukraine. I know, it's a bit of exaggeration but that's what it is. Getting rid of ukrainian nazi influence once again.
Russia needs Ukraine which does not have official policy of causing undeserved crap for Russia. Same with Georgia.

 

[skepticalbip]

For a long time we see daily reports of global tradgedy and catastrophe in the news. I have become desensitzed.

That being said, I feel for the Ukrainians. They are facing eradication as a people and culture. I am starting to tink maybe NATO shoud have responded. Are we going down the path of appeasement?

Putin said he is going to "de Nazify Ukraine'. It is not hard to imagine what that will mean.

Isn't the President of Ukraine Jewish himself? Hard to de-Nazify a Jew i would have thought.

Apparently Putin has learned from America's culture war. Slurs don't have to make sense. Here calling someone a Nazi, racist, etc. has lost all meaning because the slur only means someone who disagrees with the accuser.

 

[skepticalbip]

You people keep dodging my posts and keep going in circles repeating the same garbage over and over. I am getting more and more convinced that "invasion" was a right desision.

Putin's argument is hard to make sense of. "Ukrainians are our Russian brothers so it is Russia's duty to kill them."

That's not his argument.
His argument is essentiually "Ukrainians are our Russian brothers and no "western" machinations and meddling can change that"

I find that remarkable that Zelensky in his "Let's talk about it" speech used the same argument "We are brothers and let's talk it over"

Well, we (russians) were not getting the same impression from their prior actions and speeches to say the least. Cutting water to brothers, burning alive bunch of brothers in Odessa. No, we are not getting the same impression. I am getting impression of younger brother who has been drunk for 8 years suddenly realizing that older brother is about to beat some senses into him.


And before getting back into circle, no we are not brothers with small minority of ukrainians who did all of that.

Exactly. "They are our Russian brothers so it is Russia's duty to invade and kill them since they aren't thinking the way I want them to."

I am not getting where you are getting with that. Sorry.
Official goal of the operation is denazification of Ukraine. I know, it's a bit of exaggeration but that's what it is. Getting rid of ukrainian nazi influence once again.
Russia need Ukraine which does not have official policy of causing undeserved crap for Russia. Same with Georgia.

I highlighted in your post. "Ukrainians are our Russian brothers"
and "We merely disappointed in our Ukrainians brothers who got brainwashed by these ideas." that is the "reasoning" being used to invade and kill Ukrainians. "They are our brothers so we have to kill them because they don't think the way Putin wants them to."

 

[barbos]

skepticalbip, If ukrainian solders surrender (which they do) they are not getting killed.
In Eastern Ukraine they are more hardened and have more hatred it appears and don't surrender. I mean they (both sides) have been shelling civilian population for 8 years. What do you expect?

 

[barbos]

Isn't the President of Ukraine Jewish himself? Hard to de-Nazify a Jew i would have thought.

It's Ukraine, half of the population including nazi have some jewish ancestry.

Quite a few of 100% jews managed to become party members in Nazi Germany. of course they kept it secret.