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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

Jason Harvestdancer

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Here's a wild radical thought that seems to have received too little attention.

Maybe neither side are the "good guys."
So true. In our eagerness to support Ukraine's resistance to being invaded and annexed by Russia we wilfully ignore the simultaneous invasion and annexation of Russia by Ukraine. We really need to take a more balanced view when looking at both sides. We can do that by supporting Russia, whose capital is currently surrounded and beleaguered by Ukrainian tanks, and protesting against the mass killing of Moscow's civilian population
After you have finished defeating the strawman, go ahead and take a victory lap.
Jason: if you don't like people "strawmanning" you, then stop being so vague and state your position.
Libertarian Exclusion Principle states you can't both know if someone is a Libertarian and their position on something, at the same time.
Libertarian Exclusion Principle states that if you think a libertarian is wrong then his position is whatever you say it is and his actual position is excluded.
You just aren't as good at this as others. The point is, you never explain your position. You make vague posts, at best... and then whine when people can't decipher your vagueness.
I've explained my position in some depth. I've explained that non-intervention doesn't mean I support the other side. I've explained that just because I don't think the Ukrainians are "the good guys" doesn't mean I think Ukraine invaded Russia. I've explained that countries aren't all completely isolated from each other because there is this thing called "trade". I've explained that the US government should care more about the well-being of the people of the US that the oligarchs of Ukraine. At every explanation I've been told "no, that isn't your position, this is your position." That is the libertarian exclusion principle in action.
 

ZiprHead

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I've explained that the US government should care more about the well-being of the people of the US
This makes no sense in Libertopia. In Libertopia it's not the government's job to take care of people. That's the real Libertarian Exclusion Plinciple.
 

Jason Harvestdancer

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I've explained that the US government should care more about the well-being of the people of the US
This makes no sense in Libertopia. In Libertopia it's not the government's job to take care of people. That's the real Libertarian Exclusion Plinciple.
Even a libertarian government has a responsibility to the people of the government. Your statement of "you don't believe X you believe Y" is a perfect example of the libertarian exclusion principle - actual libertarian positions are excluded by people telling libertarians what they believe.
 

Jayjay

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Footage from Mariupol smuggled inside a tampon. But I think they should've left that detail out of the article. Not because it makes harder to get more information out of the occupied areas, but because now the Russian soldiers and their collaborators will probably start to systematically check women's tampons for contraband. :mad:
 

lpetrich

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Putin ‘had to keep explaining things to Trump’, ex-White House aide says | Donald Trump | The Guardian

"Fiona Hill, a former national security council official, said Russian leader grew frustrated with Trump: ‘Putin doesn’t like to do that’"

From Fiona Hill on Russia, Ukraine, and the Outcome of the War - YouTube
“You could see that he got frustrated many times with President Trump. Even though he loves to be able to spin his own version of events, he wants to have predictability in the person that he’s engaging with.”

...
At the Chicago event, Hill said Putin “thought that somebody like Biden, who’s a trans-Atlanticist, who knows all about Nato, who actually knows where Ukraine is, and actually knows something about the history, and is very steeped in international affairs, would be the right person to engage with as opposed to somebody that you have to explain everything to all the time, honestly”.

The Russian president, Hill said, might still be “waiting for us to sue for peace, [to] negotiate away Ukraine”.
So Vladimir Putin thinks that Joe Biden is a much more competent leader than Donald Trump.

Hill was a co-author of a well-received book on Putin. Last year, promoting a memoir, There Is Nothing for You Here, she told the BBC that in Helsinki she considered faking a medical emergency to interrupt Trump’s remarks.

“My initial thought was just ‘How can I end this?’” she said.
Seems rather desperate. She had the right idea, given Trump's Putin-loving at that event.
Trump has attacked Hill publicly, calling her “a deep state stiff – with a nice accent”. In April, after Hill compared him to Putin, Trump told the New York Times: “She doesn’t know the first thing she’s talking about. If she didn’t have the accent she would be nothing.”

Regarding Putin’s view of Trump, in 2020 Hill told the Guardian: “Trump just wants to sit down with the guy, whoever it is, and create personal chemistry and then everyone else works out the details. He wanted to treat Putin the way he treated Xi [Jinping of China] or [Benjamin] Netanyahu [of Israel]. He wanted to be able to pick up the phone and talk to them.
Or Kim Jong Un of North Korea, it seems.
“Putin doesn’t operate like that. Putin takes translators with him for every occasion. The Russians are incredibly organised. They take advantage of every opportunity, every vulnerability, every open door they can walk through.”
 

Harry Bosch

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Here's a wild radical thought that seems to have received too little attention.

Maybe neither side are the "good guys."
So true. In our eagerness to support Ukraine's resistance to being invaded and annexed by Russia we wilfully ignore the simultaneous invasion and annexation of Russia by Ukraine. We really need to take a more balanced view when looking at both sides. We can do that by supporting Russia, whose capital is currently surrounded and beleaguered by Ukrainian tanks, and protesting against the mass killing of Moscow's civilian population
After you have finished defeating the strawman, go ahead and take a victory lap.
Jason: if you don't like people "strawmanning" you, then stop being so vague and state your position.
Libertarian Exclusion Principle states you can't both know if someone is a Libertarian and their position on something, at the same time.
Libertarian Exclusion Principle states that if you think a libertarian is wrong then his position is whatever you say it is and his actual position is excluded.
You just aren't as good at this as others. The point is, you never explain your position. You make vague posts, at best... and then whine when people can't decipher your vagueness.
I've explained my position in some depth. I've explained that non-intervention doesn't mean I support the other side. I've explained that just because I don't think the Ukrainians are "the good guys" doesn't mean I think Ukraine invaded Russia. I've explained that countries aren't all completely isolated from each other because there is this thing called "trade". I've explained that the US government should care more about the well-being of the people of the US that the oligarchs of Ukraine. At every explanation I've been told "no, that isn't your position, this is your position." That is the libertarian exclusion principle in action.

Your post makes zero sense. You don't like the Ukrainian Oligarchs. Fine. You don't like those oligarch meanies who now own rubble and ruin. Fine. Do you give a fucking shit about their families? How about all the innocent civilians? Their children? I donated money to a group that rescued hundreds of children dying of cancer that was finally evacuated. Their story was heart breaking. Do you give a shit about them? Do you give a shit about all the environmental damage that Russia is causing? Do you give a shit about the millions of people world wide who will suffer because Russia won't let Ukraine export their grain? How about the world wide inflation that is affecting the world? Have you been to the store lately?
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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Your post makes zero sense. You don't like the Ukrainian Oligarchs. Fine. You don't like those oligarch meanies who now own rubble and ruin. Fine. Do you give a fucking shit about their families? How about all the innocent civilians? Their children? I donated money to a group that rescued hundreds of children dying of cancer that was finally evacuated. Their story was heart breaking. Do you give a shit about them? Do you give a shit about all the environmental damage that Russia is causing? Do you give a shit about the millions of people world wide who will suffer because Russia won't let Ukraine export their grain? How about the world wide inflation that is affecting the world? Have you been to the store lately?
Ask me when I was a young child and I probably would have said, "What?" Obviously at that point in my life I would have had little or no regard or appreciation for those things. It would not have been my fault, just a brute fact.
 

Jayjay

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So, Russia has recently broken through Ukrainian defenses in and near Popasna. Looks pretty bad. Maybe the tide isn't turning in Ukraine's favor after all, and Russia is getting a second wind.

All the more reason to keep the weapons flowing.
 

Elixir

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We don't need any negative vibes.
Realism leads to correct approaches. But despite appearances I’m not sure there’s any actual turning of the tide. Russians can take, but have yet to demonstrate that they can hold.
Right now, the increased flow of weaponry to Ukraine is just beginning to be deployed, and it looks like not a moment too soon.
Russia has the ability to apply lots of force, but that ability is diminishing. They’re now calling for 40 yr olds to enlist go fight “the Nazis”, which bespeaks both a shortage of soldiers and an inability to field experienced fighters.
Morale is a huge issue, and if things get any worse due to Ukranians’ use of newly acquired weapons, it could get debilitating in short order.
Personally I’m still befuddled as to what Putler thinks he can gain from this exercise in pointless cruelty.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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I’m still befuddled as to what Putler thinks he can gain from this exercise in pointless cruelty.
Ask Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer. Baby Hitler is probably more like Al Capone but he has a lot of those guys in him too.
 

steve_bank

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In the end Hitler ordered total mobilzaion. Kids e were handed guns. He ordered a scorched Earth Germnay. Fortunantly it was not carried out. Hitler said with the loss Germans did not deserve to survive.

Putin is not hard to understand. I just watched a short series overview of the history of Rome. Utter brutality by Rome and its adversaries over centuries. Get and hold power by any means. Ends justify the means.

Machiavellianism is a personality trait that denotes cunningness, the ability to be manipulative, and a drive to use whatever means necessary to gain power. Machiavellianism is one of the traits that forms the Dark Triad, along with narcissism and psychopathy.Dec 31, 2020

The avove fits Trunp as well.

I'd say the western alliance standing up for freedom and rejcting the old barbarism and conquest is something new in history. France, Germany, and the Brits cooperating as allies. I think Hell is finally freezing over.

All this has given me a deeper appreciation of knowing history and its importance. Anyone who opposes the NATO unity over here is ignorant of even recent history.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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All this has given me a deeper appreciation of knowing history and its importance. Anyone who opposes the NATO unity over here is ignorant of even recent history.
I would just stop at ignorant, don't think it needs chewed any finer.
 

barbos

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Nazis in AzovSteel have given up. Pay attention to tattoos.
These are the people you support.
 
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barbos

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He ordered a scorched Earth Germnay
Pentagon gave the same orders. There is a picture of blown up (by ukrainians) bridge.
it was not blown to slow down russian advancement it was blown to dust because they knew they were not planning on coming back.
 

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Omigosh! The guy is back because Mariupol finally fell, after Russia declared it had fallen several times. And he claims he has video of someone with neo-fascist tattoos that allegedly came from among those arrested. This is proof that they were all Nazis! :rolleyes: So pathetic. He continues to present propaganda that impresses Russians as if it will have the same effect on people outside of his information bubble.

Meanwhile, Russian military command, doubtless under orders from Fearless Leader, continues to believe that attacking civilian targets will somehow cause Ukrainians to give up in despair. The following is a CNN report (presumably something that barbos is no longer allowed to see), which shows a Russian missile attack on a cultural center in Lazova, Ukraine, which is in Kharkiv oblast south of Kharkiv.

Russian strike Zelensky called 'absolute evil' caught on camera

 

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Nazis in AzovSteel have given up. Pay attention to tattoos.
These are the people you support.

And these are the people you support:

FMrX22eWYAEuUag
main-qimg-4095305c3b8b41b126ed762800000b9d-lq
623076_original.jpg


The first one is the Dmitry Utkin, GRU officer and founder of Wagner group. The second guy is Dmitry Rogozin, current head of Roscosmos and former deputy prime minister and Russia's ambassador to NATO. The last one is Alexei Milchakov, a Russian nazi who "volunteered" to fight in Donbas in 2014, along with many others.

There's plenty of nazis on both side. The Russian ones seem to be in command positions, while Ukrainians are just soldiers.
 

barbos

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Jayjay,
Whataboutism much?

I only recognize Rogozin 20-25 years ago.
The rest is first, not known. Second, definitely not in any commanding position and I highly doubt are even in Donbas right now. Whereas your nazis were murdering russian and ukrainian population just a few weeks ago. Not to mention 8 years since 2014. And they ARE in commanding positions. They are 100% fucking nazis with swastika and Hitler tattoos and are in Ukrainan armed forces. Russian army does not have any of that shit. Moreover, unlike your governments Russian does not condone that shit. Yes, your governments literally say "nazis are good because they fight russians"

Rogozin early on was a nationalist, so was........ Navalny. Now-days, as I explained to you before, nationalist movement is more fringe than in Finland.
 
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barbos

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Speaking of nazis. Early in the conflict, russian refugees from ukrainian controlled Eastern Ukraine who ended up in Russia would often fight with refugees from DNR/LNR saying that Russia attacked them. After a while and a lot of new refugees from ukrainian controlled territories had came in, all these fights stopped, because newly arrived refugees explained to them in no uncertain terms that it is Ukrainian army who is bombing and murdering their own population. Nobody in Ukraine actually believes western propaganda garbage.
 

Copernicus

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Speaking of nazis. Easly in the conflict, russian refugees from ukrainian controlled Eastern Ukraine who ended up in Russia would often fight with refugees from DNR/LNR saying that Russia attacked them. After a while and a lot of new refugees from ukrainian controlled territories came in, all these fights stopped, because newly arrived refugees explained to them that it is Ukrainian army who is bombing and murdering their own population. Nobody in Ukraine actually believes western propaganda garbage.

No links to a source, of course, but we already know why. Barbos doesn't really have much access anymore to Western sources, and he doesn't want to believe that he is being lied to by Russian authorities, even though it is obvious that they are censoring Western media for a reason--to hide the truth from Russians like him. So he just spouts the obvious claptrap that the Ukrainian army was "bombing and murdering their own population". Why would they do that? I suppose it is enough just to call them Nazis and show a picture of some guys allegedly captured in Mariupol with neo-Nazi tattoos. (All of them looked particularly well-fed after weeks of struggling on rations, but let's assume these guys really were Ukrainian resisters.) Show him pictures of Russian neo-Nazis, and he shrugs them off as insignificant, implying that only his propaganda video is evidence of widespread right wing fascism among Ukrainian defenders. (BTW, it violates the Geneva Conventions to put POWs on display that way, but none of those in the video looked particularly fearful. All seemed happy to show off the tattoos for the cameras.) Meanwhile, we have full access to both the uncensored records of the brutal atrocities committed by Russians and the censored Russian media. There is no censorship in the West, because the authorities do not fear of the truth there.
 

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How the Finns Beat Back Russian Propaganda

A timely article with the return of *barbos.
Here it is in it's entirety:

In fewer than three months Finland did the unthinkable, abandoning decades of military neutrality. The dramatic turnaround demonstrates how the Russian propaganda machine has turned out not to be a dangerous brown bear, but rather a squawking, ineffective lame duck.

This Russian failure tells us much about both the power and limits of digital disinformation - and how to combat it.

First, Russia’s information war targeted domestic audiences. Russian citizens live in their own Kremlin-controlled media bubble. It sells right-wing nationalist lies, drawing on a deep reservoir of historical memories about Western invasions and painting the Ukrainians as Nazis. Attempts to use these messages to influence foreign audiences lack credibility.

Finland is a particularly tough target for disinformation. We long have ranked near the top of most indexes, not just in education but also press freedom, gender equality, social trust - and happiness. It’s difficult to gain traction by painting our successful country as a failure.

History courses teach Finns how Russia fomented a civil war after the country’s 1917 declaration of independence or how Russia attacked us in 1939. More recently, we watched with dismay as Russia attempted to export misinformation about issues such as immigrants flooding into Finland, the European Union ripping off Finns to pay for profligate southern Europeans, and NATO acting as an aggressor rather than a defensive alliance. For almost all Finns, stories about Finnish authorities taking custody of children from Russian families in Finland ring false.

Second, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and his government flooded the Internet with well-calculated messages that dominated Finland’s media space. Finns compared Zelensky’s straight talk with Russian President Vladimir Putin’s puffed-up lies. They listened to youngsters singing folk songs for peace. They read reports of Russian war crimes. They saw Ukrainian pictures of destroyed Russian tanks.

And third, just as important, Finland’s government began building strong information defenses. After Russia annexed Crimea in 2014, President Sauli Niinisto called on every Finn to take responsibility for the fight against false information. A year later, Finland brought in American experts to advise officials on how to recognize fake news.

The country’s education system, long ranked at the top of international comparisons, was reformed to emphasize media literacy. A Finnish fact-checking agency Faktabaari (FactBar) developed a much admired digital literacy “toolkit” for elementary to high school students.

After my former staffer at Finnish Broadcasting, Jessikka Aro, conducted an open-source investigation on Russia-linked disinformation campaigns, she became the target of a Russian smear campaign, accused of being everything from a CIA spy to a drug dealer. Two pro-Putin operatives were convicted of defamation.

We need now to go on the offensive. Western media have jump-started to offer high-quality neutral journalism and reporting in the Russian language. Examples of this are the Finnish and Estonian public service broadcasters and the leading dailies in Finland, Sweden, and Denmark. Their independent reporting is followed by many Russians and is causing cracks in the Kremlin facade. These reports are not propaganda. They are independent truth-telling operations.

As a NATO member Finns will continue to be pragmatic. We want to be a good neighbor to Russia. We will respect Russia as our neighbor. But it will take time. Trust in Russia will need a generation or two to be re-built.

The Finnish approach to both the physical and digital information threat is built on solid cornerstones: credible military capability and deep integration with the West. Our NATO membership train is on a fast track, and we expect a vigorous reaction from Russia. There could be an increase in military activity, cyber-attacks, and extensive propaganda warfare. But I’m not worried. We’re prepared.
*For entertainment purposes only.
 

lpetrich

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Finland's parliament votes yes to NATO | Reuters
Yes 188, no 8, absent(?) 3
Opponents to the application included some lawmakers from the Left Alliance, part of Finland's five-party coalition, among them Markus Mustajarvi who challenged the decision with a counter proposal resulting in it being put to the vote.

"Our border would become the border between the military alliance and Russia. New tensions would not be a risk only during the application process but rather a new and permanent condition of our foreign and security policy," he said.

Early on Tuesday, the foreign affairs committee decided to join the state leadership in proposing to parliament that the Nordic country should apply for membership.

"Having heard a very large number of experts and having received the opinions of 10 (parliamentary) committees, the foreign affairs committee agrees with the government that Finland should apply for membership in NATO. This decision is unanimous," chairman Jussi Halla-aho told reporters.
I can't find any vote for Sweden.
 

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Jayjay,
Whataboutism much?
No. Just showing your inconsistency in dealing with Ukrainian "nazis" and the Russian "nazis". I don't actually care that the Wagner group founder has SS tattoos, or that the Russian deputy prime minister had political rallies with swastika-carrying nationalist groups. What matters is the evil shit they have done, not their tattoos.

I only recognize Rogozin 20-25 years ago.
The rest is first, not known. Second, definitely not in any commanding position and I highly doubt are even in Donbas right now. Whereas your nazis were murdering russian and ukrainian population just a few weeks ago. Not to mention 8 years since 2014. And they ARE in commanding positions. They are 100% fucking nazis with swastika and Hitler tattoos and are in Ukrainan armed forces. Russian army does not have any of that shit. Moreover, unlike your governments Russian does not condone that shit. Yes, your governments literally say "nazis are good because they fight russians"
Nobody is saying that. Azov's nazi and far-right connotations are well known and published in the media, nobody in the west thinks that it's not problematic. But it's a civilian problem, that every country has. In war time, what kind of politics or tattoos you have don't matter. Russia is the aggressor, and is committing horrendous atrocities in the territories it occupies. Anyone who fights them is doing a good deed. The regular Russian army on the other hand has committed far worse atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere, than the Azov in its entire existence.

Rogozin early on was a nationalist, so was........ Navalny. Now-days, as I explained to you before, nationalist movement is more fringe than in Finland.
No, it's not. The openly nazi movement that brandishes swastikas and idolizes Hitler is fringe, but Russia is most certainly extremely nationalist, up to the highest level of government.

Speaking of nazis. Early in the conflict, russian refugees from ukrainian controlled Eastern Ukraine who ended up in Russia would often fight with refugees from DNR/LNR saying that Russia attacked them. After a while and a lot of new refugees from ukrainian controlled territories had came in, all these fights stopped, because newly arrived refugees explained to them in no uncertain terms that it is Ukrainian army who is bombing and murdering their own population. Nobody in Ukraine actually believes western propaganda garbage.
So let's see... refugees from Ukraine who were forced into concentration filtration camps were told "in no uncertain terms" by their captors that they should not blame Russia for bombing them, and they magically changed their opinion and saw the light! :rolleyes:

You do realize what that sounds like?
 

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Finland's parliament votes yes to NATO | Reuters
Yes 188, no 8, absent(?) 3
Opponents to the application included some lawmakers from the Left Alliance, part of Finland's five-party coalition, among them Markus Mustajarvi who challenged the decision with a counter proposal resulting in it being put to the vote.

"Our border would become the border between the military alliance and Russia. New tensions would not be a risk only during the application process but rather a new and permanent condition of our foreign and security policy," he said.

Early on Tuesday, the foreign affairs committee decided to join the state leadership in proposing to parliament that the Nordic country should apply for membership.

"Having heard a very large number of experts and having received the opinions of 10 (parliamentary) committees, the foreign affairs committee agrees with the government that Finland should apply for membership in NATO. This decision is unanimous," chairman Jussi Halla-aho told reporters.
I can't find any vote for Sweden.
Not sure if they even had a vote? I think the process is different in Sweden, and doesn't require a vote in the parliament. Maybe @DrZoidberg can enlighten us.
 

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Finland's parliament votes yes to NATO | Reuters
Yes 188, no 8, absent(?) 3
Opponents to the application included some lawmakers from the Left Alliance, part of Finland's five-party coalition, among them Markus Mustajarvi who challenged the decision with a counter proposal resulting in it being put to the vote.

"Our border would become the border between the military alliance and Russia. New tensions would not be a risk only during the application process but rather a new and permanent condition of our foreign and security policy," he said.

Early on Tuesday, the foreign affairs committee decided to join the state leadership in proposing to parliament that the Nordic country should apply for membership.

"Having heard a very large number of experts and having received the opinions of 10 (parliamentary) committees, the foreign affairs committee agrees with the government that Finland should apply for membership in NATO. This decision is unanimous," chairman Jussi Halla-aho told reporters.
I can't find any vote for Sweden.
Not sure if they even had a vote? I think the process is different in Sweden, and doesn't require a vote in the parliament. Maybe @DrZoidberg can enlighten us.

Both Sweden and Finland are a bit strange this way. On paper, people's constitutuional rights are quite weak. Our leaders and police can do a bit like they want. They don’t need to care about what people want. It wasn't until 1998 we put in place a function to try police misconduct. Before this it wasn't possible. But the police still decide themselves punishments. This is just insane.

So if there's nothing to stop Sweden from becoming an authoritarian police state, why doesn't it happen? Great question. I don’t think anyone can answer that. It's probably got something to do with the culture.

By tradition our leaders have a lot of referendums and include voters. But they never have to when it comes to military matters.

Sweden also has a very high trust in politicians. So if they do stuff without consulting the people, Swedes are most often cool with it. To an outsider it's a truly baffling cultural artefact.

NATO is also a bit special. Sweden and Finland have, right from the start, in practice been NATO members. There's now declassified Swedish government documents from the 50'ies and 60'ies that spell this out. Our neutrality was something we just said not to annoy USSR.

Since WW2 the Swedish secret police have automatically given the CIA anything they want immediately, even when CIA has asked for things violating the Swedish constitution. This only stopped after 9/11 when we started handing over people the CIA promptly murdered in Egypt. Being this submissive to USA was never official Swedish policy. We just did it anyway. Looking back, it's very strange. And says a lot about how afraid we were of USSR.

Swedes know this of course. We know that our non-alliance has always been a complete sham. I think that's why nobody is reacting against it.
 

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Another fun detail was that there has been "scandals" in Sweden when Swedish military and police were caught conspiring with USA and NATO. The Swedish government denied it every time. But when the documents were declassified all the accusations proved true.

The Swedish people's high trust in their government is very hard to explain
 

Harry Bosch

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Speaking of nazis. Early in the conflict, russian refugees from ukrainian controlled Eastern Ukraine who ended up in Russia would often fight with refugees from DNR/LNR saying that Russia attacked them. After a while and a lot of new refugees from ukrainian controlled territories had came in, all these fights stopped, because newly arrived refugees explained to them in no uncertain terms that it is Ukrainian army who is bombing and murdering their own population. Nobody in Ukraine actually believes western propaganda garbage.

Sorry, but ignorance is no excuse. I feel bad that you don't have access to western news. But your love for Russia and Putler has clouded your common sense. And you're in denial. It's quite stunning that you'd allow your press to convince you that a group of people would actually bomb themselves (to what end?)!! But regardless. The Russians are responsible for this war. And your side will be held accountable for the crimes your side is committing. Putler is dying of cancer. I assume that once he's dead, that Russian military will return home (hopefully take all the Russian dead soldiers with you also). And then the ports can be reopened so that food can be exported again. And then Ukraine will start to rebuild. The west will help Ukraine build. I wouldn't expect the sanctions to be reversed until your side agrees to reparations for the crimes your side committed in Ukraine.
 

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Putler is dying of cancer. I assume that once he's dead, that Russian military will return home (hopefully take all the Russian dead soldiers with you also).
The next guy is likely to be worse.
 

Harry Bosch

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Putler is dying of cancer. I assume that once he's dead, that Russian military will return home (hopefully take all the Russian dead soldiers with you also).
The next guy is likely to be worse.
Maybe. But he'll have far less resources to play with. Far less weapons. He'll have far less allies. And he'll have a country heading into bankruptcy. Eventually no one will want the products that Russia can sell (gas and oil). And he'll have enemies in Ukraine that Russia created rebuilding and with a hate for Russia that will last generations. I don't think that the future bodes well for Russia.
 

Elixir

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While @barbos has rendered himself NWRT, it is interesting that they let him show back up here.
I wonder if he still thinks Russia won’t invade Ukraine. I see they’re now saying they don’t want Odesa, so that’s probably the next target.
 

Harry Bosch

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Jayjay,
Whataboutism much?
No. Just showing your inconsistency in dealing with Ukrainian "nazis" and the Russian "nazis". I don't actually care that the Wagner group founder has SS tattoos, or that the Russian deputy prime minister had political rallies with swastika-carrying nationalist groups. What matters is the evil shit they have done, not their tattoos.

I only recognize Rogozin 20-25 years ago.
The rest is first, not known. Second, definitely not in any commanding position and I highly doubt are even in Donbas right now. Whereas your nazis were murdering russian and ukrainian population just a few weeks ago. Not to mention 8 years since 2014. And they ARE in commanding positions. They are 100% fucking nazis with swastika and Hitler tattoos and are in Ukrainan armed forces. Russian army does not have any of that shit. Moreover, unlike your governments Russian does not condone that shit. Yes, your governments literally say "nazis are good because they fight russians"
Nobody is saying that. Azov's nazi and far-right connotations are well known and published in the media, nobody in the west thinks that it's not problematic. But it's a civilian problem, that every country has. In war time, what kind of politics or tattoos you have don't matter. Russia is the aggressor, and is committing horrendous atrocities in the territories it occupies. Anyone who fights them is doing a good deed. The regular Russian army on the other hand has committed far worse atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere, than the Azov in its entire existence.

Rogozin early on was a nationalist, so was........ Navalny. Now-days, as I explained to you before, nationalist movement is more fringe than in Finland.
No, it's not. The openly nazi movement that brandishes swastikas and idolizes Hitler is fringe, but Russia is most certainly extremely nationalist, up to the highest level of government.

Speaking of nazis. Early in the conflict, russian refugees from ukrainian controlled Eastern Ukraine who ended up in Russia would often fight with refugees from DNR/LNR saying that Russia attacked them. After a while and a lot of new refugees from ukrainian controlled territories had came in, all these fights stopped, because newly arrived refugees explained to them in no uncertain terms that it is Ukrainian army who is bombing and murdering their own population. Nobody in Ukraine actually believes western propaganda garbage.
So let's see... refugees from Ukraine who were forced into concentration filtration camps were told "in no uncertain terms" by their captors that they should not blame Russia for bombing them, and they magically changed their opinion and saw the light! :rolleyes:

You do realize what that sounds like?
By coincidence, I just listened to a reporter interviewing a Russian speaking Estonian woman who parroted exactly what Barbos said above. That Ukraine is bombing itself. We are arming Ukraine with the weapons that Ukraine is using to destroy their own cities. Unbelievable. And she has access to western media. In fact, Russian TV is currently banned in Estonia. The interview was on a BBC podcast, "The documentary" dated May 18. Putler has created a sick demented cult in Russia in which it appears, that people will believe in despite common logic and facts. To have a large powerful country with people who are so deluded is truly scary. The west is going to be at war with Russia for a long time....
 

Harry Bosch

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While @barbos has rendered himself NWRT, it is interesting that they let him show back up here.
I wonder if he still thinks Russia won’t invade Ukraine. I see they’re now saying they don’t want Odesa, so that’s probably the next target.
You're probably correct. If the Russians were really smart, they'd help the west in sending more weapons to Ukraine so that the Ukrainians could further hammer Odsea.
 

Elixir

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The west is going to be at war with Russia for a long time....
… unless Trump manages to cheat his way back into power. Putler is probably hoping to hang on by his fingernails until that happens. If/when it does, Russia will become the good guy, while the Ukranian and American public will be the villains, along with the people of any remaining democracy. NATO will be gone, the EU will fragment and the Global Dictator Community will rejoice.
 

steve_bank

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The west is going to be at war with Russia for a long time....
… unless Trump manages to cheat his way back into power. Putler is probably hoping to hang on by his fingernails until that happens. If/when it does, Russia will become the good guy, while the Ukranian and American public will be the villains, along with the people of any remaining democracy. NATO will be gone, the EU will fragment and the Global Dictator Community will rejoice.

I had not thought about that but it makes sense. A good insight.
 

DrZoidberg

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I wonder if Barbos is literally working for the Russian propaganda departement. It would explain his continual support for Russia
 

steve_bank

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I wonder if Barbos is literally working for the Russian propaganda departement. It would explain his continual support for Russia


Years back after an exchange with Barbos on the issue of argression against the USA I had the distinct impression he at least had some connection to the Russian government, could be informal. He was articulate and rational sounding like he was echoing a policy.
 

Harry Bosch

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I wonder if Barbos is literally working for the Russian propaganda departement. It would explain his continual support for Russia
Why do you think that? I'm not seeing evidence that his views are in the minority. I hear interview after interview of Russians (some in eastern Europe) agreeing that the Ukrainians are attacking themselves. The BBC interviews are very interesting. I think that it's a mistake to make many assumptions of what the Russian people believe. We don't have any honest way to gauge their majority opinion. However, to assume that the Russian people all want peace, and that the war will crumble after the Putler government collapses, is dangerous. It creates complacency. I think that there's a very good chance that a majority of Russians want to restore Mother Russia through war. And the west should prepare for the worst. Very much hope that I'm wrong by the way.....
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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By coincidence, I just listened to a reporter interviewing a Russian speaking Estonian woman who parroted exactly what Barbos said above. That Ukraine is bombing itself. We are arming Ukraine with the weapons that Ukraine is using to destroy their own cities. Unbelievable. And she has access to western media. In fact, Russian TV is currently banned in Estonia. The interview was on a BBC podcast, "The documentary" dated May 18. Putler has created a sick demented cult in Russia in which it appears, that people will believe in despite common logic and facts. To have a large powerful country with people who are so deluded is truly scary. The west is going to be at war with Russia for a long time....
Russia is currently a Stalinist state. For me that explains everything. There were thousands of protestors arrested across Russia when Ukraine was invaded. They were treated as criminals and threatened with long prison sentences. What else should we expect from the Russian population given such authoritarian methods? There are plenty of kooks in this country and we're a functioning democracy.
 

Copernicus

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By coincidence, I just listened to a reporter interviewing a Russian speaking Estonian woman who parroted exactly what Barbos said above. That Ukraine is bombing itself. We are arming Ukraine with the weapons that Ukraine is using to destroy their own cities. Unbelievable. And she has access to western media. In fact, Russian TV is currently banned in Estonia. The interview was on a BBC podcast, "The documentary" dated May 18. Putler has created a sick demented cult in Russia in which it appears, that people will believe in despite common logic and facts. To have a large powerful country with people who are so deluded is truly scary. The west is going to be at war with Russia for a long time....

The ethnic Russian population in Estonia tends to listen mainly to Russian media, because that is the language that they are most comfortable with. Barbos seems to have access to Western sources and speaks English, but he clearly relies almost exclusively on Russian sources for his information on the war. I speak Russian, but I only monitor the Russian media and other foreign sources sporadically, finding it much easier to switch to a Google Translate English version when I want to read quickly or jumping back and forth between Russian and English versions. My time for reading a lot of different source materials is limited, so that limits how much non-English source material I can cover.

Russian speakers in Estonia live in a tug of war between Russia and the West

 

steve_bank

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Western reporting in te past says a majority of Russians belive the Putin narrative.

There was a report of a Ukrainian usng facial recognition to identify abandoned dead Russians soldiers. He identified some and contacted family in Russia saying they coud come and get the bodies. There were a few who said they would, others resounding with statements like we will kill all Ukrainians.


I do not think we will say a large scale protest against the war. War excites patriotism. I am sure the Nazi invasion is to Russia what Pearl Harbor is to us.

We had a pointless decades long war in Afghanistan over 9/11 followed by a pointless war in Iraq. There was widespread support by people in the press for GWB's war at the start.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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Western reporting in te past says a majority of Russians belive the Putin narrative.

There was a report of a Ukrainian usng facial recognition to identify abandoned dead Russians soldiers. He identified some and contacted family in Russia saying they coud come and get the bodies. There were a few who said they would, others resounding with statements like we will kill all Ukrainians.


I do not think we will say a large scale protest against the war. War excites patriotism. I am sure the Nazi invasion is to Russia what Pearl Harbor is to us.

We had a pointless decades long war in Afghanistan over 9/11 followed by a pointless war in Iraq. There was widespread support by people in the press for GWB's war at the start.
Bullshit. Russia is a police state run by a ruthless tyrant. This is not like what we experience here in the U.S. I remember protests against the Vietnam War. Millions of people were opposed and voiced that opposition. They didn't end up arrested and imprisoned as a rule. How is it that persons like yourself so easily gloss over these stark differences?

Yes, people can be patriotic when they feel threatened. Threatened! Like if the thugs are going to come to my house and arrest me or poison my underwear if I voice my opposition.

Please don't equate Russia with the U.S. or any functioning democracy this way. It's just fucking wrong.
 

steve_bank

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Western reporting in te past says a majority of Russians belive the Putin narrative.

There was a report of a Ukrainian usng facial recognition to identify abandoned dead Russians soldiers. He identified some and contacted family in Russia saying they coud come and get the bodies. There were a few who said they would, others resounding with statements like we will kill all Ukrainians.


I do not think we will say a large scale protest against the war. War excites patriotism. I am sure the Nazi invasion is to Russia what Pearl Harbor is to us.

We had a pointless decades long war in Afghanistan over 9/11 followed by a pointless war in Iraq. There was widespread support by people in the press for GWB's war at the start.
Bullshit. Russia is a police state run by a ruthless tyrant. This is not like what we experience here in the U.S. I remember protests against the Vietnam War. Millions of people were opposed and voiced that opposition. They didn't end up arrested and imprisoned as a rule. How is it that persons like yourself so easily gloss over these stark differences?

Yes, people can be patriotic when they feel threatened. Threatened! Like if the thugs are going to come to my house and arrest me or poison my underwear if I voice my opposition.

Please don't equate Russia with the U.S. or any functioning democracy this way. It's just fucking wrong.
Yes iot is a police stae and media is controlled. However western reporting has said Putin does have a majority support. Russians are just as patriotic as any others.

Just look at Trump and his supporters, and we have a free press where his falsehoods are repeatedly proven wrong. Yet Christians on the right look the iter way saying they see his immorality but it does not matter, he promotes their values. That the election was stolen has a wide belief.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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Western reporting in te past says a majority of Russians belive the Putin narrative.

There was a report of a Ukrainian usng facial recognition to identify abandoned dead Russians soldiers. He identified some and contacted family in Russia saying they coud come and get the bodies. There were a few who said they would, others resounding with statements like we will kill all Ukrainians.


I do not think we will say a large scale protest against the war. War excites patriotism. I am sure the Nazi invasion is to Russia what Pearl Harbor is to us.

We had a pointless decades long war in Afghanistan over 9/11 followed by a pointless war in Iraq. There was widespread support by people in the press for GWB's war at the start.
Bullshit. Russia is a police state run by a ruthless tyrant. This is not like what we experience here in the U.S. I remember protests against the Vietnam War. Millions of people were opposed and voiced that opposition. They didn't end up arrested and imprisoned as a rule. How is it that persons like yourself so easily gloss over these stark differences?

Yes, people can be patriotic when they feel threatened. Threatened! Like if the thugs are going to come to my house and arrest me or poison my underwear if I voice my opposition.

Please don't equate Russia with the U.S. or any functioning democracy this way. It's just fucking wrong.
Yes it is a police state and media is controlled.
Yesiree. That explains a lot.
 

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zorq

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Barbos's obsession with a handful of neo-nazis in Ukraine is cute.

It's like, should we be worried about the fascist state that tried to obliterate the culture of its neighbors and take their land and wealth through violent aggression in the 1940's, or the one doing it now in the 2020's?
 

lpetrich

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I found some articles on Noam Chomsky's positions.

Noam Chomsky, Jeremy Scahill on the Russia-Ukraine War - Apr 14

Noam Chomsky: Trump Is The "One Western Statesman" Pushing For Diplomacy To End Ukraine War | Video | RealClearPolitics - May 1

Which is far too generous. The truth about Trump is much closer to what he said nearly six years ago: Noam Chomsky: "Hitler Was A Sincere, Dedicated Ideologue -- Trump Isn't" | Video | RealClearPolitics - 2016 Nov 29

Noam Chomsky Says Ukraine Desire for Heavy Weapons Is 'Western Propaganda' - May 13

NC seems like he is willing to give Vladimir Putin the sort of pass that he does not give to the US foreign-policy establishment.
 

DrZoidberg

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Here's a good video on how Swedes and Finns see Russia. Historically we've seen Russia a bit like herpes. You can't make it go away. But you can do your best to manage the symptoms. Russia has always been a horrible neighbour to Finland.

 
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